Plate amp clipping?

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DBT AUDIO

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #20 on: 28 Jan 2022, 02:47 am »
Doh! I forgot that the sub amp is on its own.
Lol…. No sweat, this hifi thing can get crazy!

doggie

Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #21 on: 28 Jan 2022, 03:39 am »
I assumed the X3s had the 500w amps and the X5s had the 250w amps?

I checked and my X5's came with the FA501 amps...

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #22 on: 28 Jan 2022, 03:51 am »
I checked and my X5's came with the FA501 amps...
Nice…. Lucky you!

franSSS

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #23 on: 28 Jan 2022, 04:57 am »
I assume if there is a discrepancy it can be due to supply issues with COVID?

abomwell

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #24 on: 28 Jan 2022, 05:59 am »
The good news is that by just cutting the volume level by only 3db you will cut the wattage needed by 1/2.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #25 on: 28 Jan 2022, 07:01 am »
I assume if there is a discrepancy it can be due to supply issues with COVID?
Thats what I’m thinking.  We may have waited for a longer delivery date if the 500w amps were not in the shop when they were building our speakers, so maybe they used what they had in stock?

doggie

Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #26 on: 28 Jan 2022, 01:44 pm »
I assumed the X3s had the 500w amps and the X5s had the 250w amps?

My memory of the specs from the older website is that the X3s came with the 500w amps and the X5s had the 250w amps. I remember that when I ordered my X5's about 6 months ago they were on hold for quite a while due to issues getting Hypex amps.


abomwell

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #27 on: 28 Jan 2022, 01:50 pm »
One thing that should help is to insert a high pass filter with a steep slope, say, at 25Hz in order to eliminate wattage wasting subterranean frequencies that can't be heard in smaller rooms where X5's likely live. I just did that via Roon.

foo_me

Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #28 on: 28 Jan 2022, 05:35 pm »
Yes, those hypex amps have been backordered since late last year.  JUst received great news that Clayton will be getting more next week so at least my wait is almost over.  Not sure what wattage they are though

Desertpilot

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #29 on: 28 Jan 2022, 06:38 pm »
One thing that should help is to insert a high pass filter with a steep slope, say, at 25Hz in order to eliminate wattage wasting subterranean frequencies that can't be heard in smaller rooms where X5's likely live. I just did that via Roon.

What I've done is establish a crossover to my two sealed "box" subwoofers (SVS SB13 Ultra with the plate amp upgrades).  Yeah, I know, box subs suck.  But, I own them and can't afford OB replacements.
-- for Home Theater I crossed at 40 Hz.
-- for music (I use a separate server) I crossed at 30 Hz.

Hopefully that will remove this issue from my "worry" list.  I'm sad I got the 250 watt versions on my X3s.

Marcus

JTF

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #30 on: 28 Jan 2022, 08:25 pm »
DBT, thanks for listing those tracks. So, I do get some clipping with some of them if the knob is turned all the way, past the last tick mark, to where it won't turn any further. I put a pic below to illustrate the difference. If I back it off just slightly from that position (image on the right) it doesn't clip. Is this what you've experienced?

FWIW, I noticed the amp module was different from what was shown on Spatial's site when I took delivery in the spring of 2020. I discussed with Clayton at the time, and from what I remember of that conversation is that the 251 module is standard for both the X5 and X3, and he was only using the 501 due to supply constraints. I think performance was expected to be the same regardless. He also mentioned that the vol control is programmed to have a specific range of adjustment.



Tyson

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #31 on: 28 Jan 2022, 09:41 pm »
What I've done is establish a crossover to my two sealed "box" subwoofers (SVS SB13 Ultra with the plate amp upgrades).  Yeah, I know, box subs suck.  But, I own them and can't afford OB replacements.
-- for Home Theater I crossed at 40 Hz.
-- for music (I use a separate server) I crossed at 30 Hz.

Hopefully that will remove this issue from my "worry" list.  I'm sad I got the 250 watt versions on my X3s.

Marcus


Actually, box subs are pretty good for HT and also for ultra-low bass. 

abomwell

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #32 on: 28 Jan 2022, 09:52 pm »
What I've done is establish a crossover to my two sealed "box" subwoofers (SVS SB13 Ultra with the plate amp upgrades).  Yeah, I know, box subs suck.  But, I own them and can't afford OB replacements.
-- for Home Theater I crossed at 40 Hz.
-- for music (I use a separate server) I crossed at 30 Hz.

Hopefully that will remove this issue from my "worry" list.  I'm sad I got the 250 watt versions on my X3s.

Marcus

I think boxed subs, crossed at 30 Hz, is a good way to avoid the clipping issue. What crossover slope are you using?

Linkwitz's Thor boxed subs were designed to work with his OB Orion's. I heard that setup and it sounded excellent. I don't recall where it was crossed over.

abomwell

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #33 on: 28 Jan 2022, 09:56 pm »

Actually, box subs are actually pretty good for HT and also for ultra-low bass.

Yes, and placing them in opposite room corners, I found, really helped smooth out peaks and nulls in my room.

Desertpilot

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #34 on: 28 Jan 2022, 11:02 pm »

Actually, box subs are pretty good for HT and also for ultra-low bass.



Thanks Tyson.  Makes me feel better about my decision.  The subs on my X3s are excellent and I doubt any of my music (except a couple organ pieces) reach low enough to create problems.



Yes, and placing them in opposite room corners, I found, really helped smooth out peaks and nulls in my room.



I do have them in the rear corners of my room.  I'm glad I did it as you suggested.



I think boxed subs, crossed at 30 Hz, is a good way to avoid the clipping issue. What crossover slope are you using?

Linkwitz's Thor boxed subs were designed to work with his OB Orion's. I heard that setup and it sounded excellent. I don't recall where it was crossed over.


For home theater it was easy.  I re-ran Audyssey this morning and it suggested a 40 Hz crossover.  I kept that suggestion.  Many of my movies have lots of loud explosions.  Might as well let my box subs handle that hard work.

For music, not quite so easy.  I do not use a preamp. 
-- The good news: JRiver allows speaker distance and crossover settings (I set 30 Hz).  The bad news:  JRiver only applies these settings to PCM files, not DSD.
-- ROON, on the other hand, will apply speaker distance correction settings to both PCM and DSD files.  Unfortunately, ROON does not have a crossover facility.

Personally, I can't hear a difference between the two music players so I tend to alternate between them.
« Last Edit: 29 Jan 2022, 12:33 am by Desertpilot »

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #35 on: 29 Jan 2022, 12:46 am »
DBT, thanks for listing those tracks. So, I do get some clipping with some of them if the knob is turned all the way, past the last tick mark, to where it won't turn any further. I put a pic below to illustrate the difference. If I back it off just slightly from that position (image on the right) it doesn't clip. Is this what you've experienced?

FWIW, I noticed the amp module was different from what was shown on Spatial's site when I took delivery in the spring of 2020. I discussed with Clayton at the time, and from what I remember of that conversation is that the 251 module is standard for both the X5 and X3, and he was only using the 501 due to supply constraints. I think performance was expected to be the same regardless. He also mentioned that the vol control is programmed to have a specific range of adjustment.


JTF, I cannot set my subwoofer volume on the last tick mark without it clipping when I play, just about, any R&B or contemporary jazz songs that tend to have more bass than traditional jazz, for example.  I have a big room, so I have to turn up the preamp volume a bit, but it's at a reasonable listening level.  I can set the subwoofer volume, slightly, past the second to last tick mark on majority of the music I listen to, which is 90% traditional jazz, but I'm still not totally satisfied with the bass response.  It's amazing how you don't get any real bass response until you turn up the subwoofer volume to the last few tick marks.  I've never experienced this with any of the box subwoofers I've used for my surround sound setup. 

I set the subwoofer volume on the second to last tick mark for the bass heavy songs that generally cause clipping when I go past that mark. See picture below. 

The different amp installations due to supply constraints does sound like a familiar conversation I had with Clayton at the time I was purchasing my X5s, but I wasn't clear on which plate amp each X model was originally supposed to have?  So, your response explains it.  Thanks so much for testing those songs on your system!



JTF

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #36 on: 29 Jan 2022, 01:45 am »
It's amazing how you don't get any real bass response until you turn up the subwoofer volume to the last few tick marks.  I've never experienced this with any of the box subwoofers I've used for my surround sound setup. 

My takeaway from conversations with Clayton was that the gain control is setup to be a fine adjustment over a smaller range. So, if a regular sub is 0 to 10, absolute minimum and max, the X5 is set to cover like 5-8 or 6 to 9, something like that. Does that make sense? I could be wrong but that was my understanding. The range of adjustment seems to be from where the knob clicks into place at the 9 o'clock position, to whatever max is. Below that I don't get bass, but the bass does get stronger beyond the last tick mark.

Thanks so much for testing those songs on your system!

You're welcome, glad you found it helpful.

DBT AUDIO

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Re: Plate amp clipping?
« Reply #37 on: 29 Jan 2022, 02:53 am »
My takeaway from conversations with Clayton was that the gain control is setup to be a fine adjustment over a smaller range. So, if a regular sub is 0 to 10, absolute minimum and max, the X5 is set to cover like 5-8 or 6 to 9, something like that. Does that make sense? I could be wrong but that was my understanding. The range of adjustment seems to be from where the knob clicks into place at the 9 o'clock position, to whatever max is. Below that I don't get bass, but the bass does get stronger beyond the last tick mark.

You're welcome, glad you found it helpful.
Yes, that explanation makes sense. I spoke to Clayton about it shortly after I received my X5s and he didn't seem to excited about the gain not having a more gradual increase of bass like most box subwoofers and supposedly, the manufacturer could not change that.  I guess it doesn't really matter as long as you get the bass tuned to your liking.  You are correct concerning how the bass gets stronger beyond the last tick mark, but my 250 watt ran out of gas and started clipping at that point, although it sounded good with several songs that I've tried at that setting.

Enjoy your listening sessions!