Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!

Chewbacca, Shives and 4 Guests are viewing this topic. Read 286 times.

Shives

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 217
  • I like French fries
Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« on: Yesterday at 06:08 pm »
Thanks for looking, and good day to all!

I have a couple of quick question. I seem to be a bother trying to find answers.

1. Statik networks. In one of the circuits (trying not to give away info) it uses a .27 inductor. I have an assortment of copper foil inductors. 2 I have marked .30 actually measure .28mH. I think I’ve heard 3% change is ok, I’m not sure. When I measure they measure at 280.28uH. (.28028mH). I’m wondering if these would work for the Statik?, or if they would be horrid being off a little!

Reading lots of back and fourth on copper foil inductors. Good, bad indifference. So, I was thinking maybe just use them for the tweeter circuit in the Voce and Statik? Or, if the Voce inductor is a different size in this circuit… which I would not know without removing and measurements)

I have .30mH 1.0mH and 1.25mH. Copper foil coils. If I can use the .30 that measure .28 in these awesome!! As well being I have the 1.0 I could use one for the last coil in the other circuit. So, my next question… would this screw with phase, DCR and such to much and cause issues? Has anyone used the Solan inductors? Hepta Litz coils?  (Sorry if I sound like a flake, don’t want to give away values and upset anyone)

2. As far as the large caps in the circuits… other then Erse what brands have you used that worked well with sonicap? Out side of Erse I was thinking of trying the clarity in the mid circuits not tweeter, thoughts?

3. X-on wall MDF cut sheet, does anyone have these? Would like to try an knock these out quick before the parts are sold out. Thanks.

4. Is it as big a deal to match the rear channel (surround speakers x on wall)  caps and such to the front!? ( I would not think you would have to go and use all the best like up front, but again maybe you do)


I’m really sorry to ask these questions. I hope I don’t upset anyone. Few people have been very kind, and helpful! Just trying to gain some more knowledge from people before ordering.






E-Zee

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 78
    • Diy speaker resources and crossover assembly services
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 11:08 pm »
I'll try to be brief and get some response on board for you.  Others will add to it I'm sure.

1- small variances from the diagram are not critical.   It is more important that each speaker match each other, than that they match exactly the diagram. In your scenario, trying to match 0.27mH, you could buy two of that stated value and they could easily measure .265 and the other .285.  If I had to choose between that pair, or a pair of 0.3 that each measured 0.29, than I'd rather have the pair at 0.29 even though they are further from stated value. 

Within reason, the small variance you are referencing is not critical and is within many manufacturer variances. 

Regarding foils, my personal bias is towards the frugal side. I'm not against foils in any way, but as the cost difference increases significantly, I become quickly less likely.   For a small value tweeter foil, that cost may not be a lot, but as you approach larger values, the cost for foils really climbs.  They are trendy and they look cool, but from a dollar perspective, I don't think they are magical. 

If we take 16ga wire inductor as a baseline, depending on size of inductor, it's not impossible for the upgrade to a 16ga foil to cost 2x the cost of upgrade to a 14ga wire.  Depending upon brand, with a large inductor, the upgrade to 12ga wire may even cost less than upgrade to 16ga foil.  You are correct to consider DCR, but more often than not, at least in my experience, I'm able to find larger gauge wire inductor for less $, than foil version at smaller gauge.  No harm in spending for foils if it doesn't break your wallet, but I personally would prioritize an upgrade to resistors first and they are often cheaper of an upgrade than foils.  You could buy a pair of Path Audio resistors or two boards full of Mills resistors for the cost of upgrading a pair of large inductors to foil.

2 - The magic for me in Erse caps for large values is their super low price.  The perform well and they are cheap.  Many other options will also behave very well.  You mentioned clarity caps as an option..  I do like the clarity cap CSA range (purple in color) and think they are a good value. If they don't have your needed  value in that range, I've also had success in the SA line (black in color).

3- I haven't seen that info available yet.

4- no.  I would not worry about matching caps front to rear.  If you are inclined to spend more for your front channels that would be perfectly fine.  Front to rear do not overlap in nearly the same way as your front three channels do, and rear do not process nearly as much signal.  They are important but surround channels are very intermittent .
« Last Edit: Today at 12:30 am by E-Zee »

corndog71

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1403
  • Some people call me Rob.
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #2 on: Today at 01:47 am »
I’ve only used Sonicaps and Erse in my Statiks.  I like Clarity caps and have used them in other applications.  CMR would be good for the tweeters.  CSA would be ideal for the mids but not the tweeters as their high frequencies are just not as extended.  For the big cap on the woofers Erse works well.  As for the foils I would use those primarily on the mid circuit where they’re in the signal path.  I’ve seen them used in the entire crossover which I’m sure sounds good but that’s more money than I want to spend.  Oh and bypassing all of the caps with a good 0.1uF cap like the Miflex KFPM will also bring improvements.

Shives

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 217
  • I like French fries
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #3 on: Today at 01:48 pm »
Guys, thank you!!

E-zee….. Your always the man! Thanks brother. Coils I do have already so it would be the purchase of one for the Voce if the coil is the same.

Corndog, thank you as my bud!

So, Erse caps… Yes… sadly I don’t know if they have stock. Clarity I did not think worked with the encore tweeters.. Or the T26SG tweeters that well. So, was thinking to keep to sonicap there. Couple CSA in the mid circuit, and Erse for the bass circuit.

Sorry to be cryptic, trying not to give away values. If anyone has a Voce schematic, I would love to know the coil values so I don’t have to pull and measure. Same time I may just leave the coils for now. With the Voce and the Statik having different value caps in the mid circuit… I’m thinking it’s smart to match all 3 speakers with these caps for mid? Rather then Erse, and clarity. The pile of coils I have currently are in the photos. I have 8, I can trade or sell as well! But, why in the mid path, and not tweeter? Figure the tweeter would best use the copper foil? Guess the mid as well.

Was also looking at possible swap of inductor for bass circuit. Get the I core out, and use a air core, which I know will be large. Just ideas I’m tossing around. Thanks. Appreciate the conversation!


DannyBadorine

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 197
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #4 on: Today at 03:13 pm »

If your inductor measures higher than what you need, you can unwrap some of it and cut it off then re-measure.  Be careful that you don't go too far, but you can get down closer to what you actually need then put a zip tie back on it to hold it together.

DannyBadorine

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 197
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #5 on: Today at 03:16 pm »
But, why in the mid path, and not tweeter? Figure the tweeter would best use the copper foil? Guess the mid as well.

It makes a difference in the mid-path if it's worth the money for you.  When I switched to foil inductors I was shocked by the difference. 
I have also used Clarity Caps CSA stuff and it's great.  It's my first choice.  And I don't think it's necessary to match the rear channel or middle channel when it comes to caps.  Having the correct values is the most important thing.

Shives

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 217
  • I like French fries
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #6 on: Today at 03:55 pm »
Hey thanks Danny!

So, copper foil inductors are not as easy to unwrap as the normal coil wire chokes. Not saying it’s not possible! I was also considering to try unwrapping them. I would assume these you would have to heat up, and then after the unwind, you would have to bake them again to keep them from vibrating away and unfolding. Normal coils so much more easy! Lol. The zip tie method could work, but many folks don’t know that coils have a vibration to them, more so then the speaker and song playing through them. They actually vibrate, and 1 of the reasons the coatings are put in place! To try and stop this electro magnetic coil vibration occurrence.

I can agree the copper foil will induce a nice change to sound, I’m still wondering why the mids would sound better over tweeter for copper foils. ? Is this due to the coil cutting more of the highs smoother? Essentially way I see it, a choke will eliminate high frequencies.. larger the coil, more that’s gone. With the tweeter picking up fine details I figure it would work best in that circuit for quality. I also agree that the mid circuit would also benefit from copper foil inductor. Actually thinking more about it, I understand why folks are saying mids.

Clarity caps I do like, yet I don’t know for encore tweeters. I feel they are better served in the mid circuit. Thats just my ear taste. The sonicaps work so well with that T26SG.

Also, I made the choice of using the miflex bypasses KPCU-03 I went with the 250v for size reasons. Understanding the 600v allows more area.

I do have Mills resistors, I’m thinking of using.. my next choice due to watching some and getting advise from would be Path Audio. But, budget wise, that’s close to 150 in resistors. Lol. Next time!

So, copper foils I do have, .30mH x 2, 1.0mH x 4 and 1.25mH x 2 (these were in a set of speakers I purchased. I since pulled them apart, and have all the upgraded parts used in those circuits. E-zee is first in line to trade inductors. (If we have something that will help each other)! Again, this is if I do not use them. If I’m smart to, then this would be the path I would like to be encouraged to go down. Thanks much! The coils are Alpha-Cores

Gosh so many choices and thoughts. I sincerely appreciate everyone’s ideas and information! I feel like sometimes we just listen to one set of words, which is not bad at all! But, learning and hearing what others use, and have to say is meaningful to me!! Personally I feel if you constantly just listen to just 1 person, you sort of put blinders on to the rest of what could be! Many around here are beyond smart, way smarter then I! So, mucho appreciated! No disrespect to anyone, just don’t like to follow blindly like sheep! Sometimes I like to set the curve and make a new path….. lololol at least try!

Once again, thank you all! Please keep the information coming! Anyone who’s local to me is welcome to stop over as well!
 

DannyBadorine

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 197
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #7 on: Today at 04:23 pm »
Hey thanks Danny!

So, copper foil inductors are not as easy to unwrap as the normal coil wire chokes. Not saying it’s not possible! I was also considering to try unwrapping them. I would assume these you would have to heat up, and then after the unwind, you would have to bake them again to keep them from vibrating away and unfolding. Normal coils so much more easy! Lol. The zip tie method could work, but many folks don’t know that coils have a vibration to them, more so then the speaker and song playing through them. They actually vibrate, and 1 of the reasons the coatings are put in place! To try and stop this electro magnetic coil vibration occurrence.

I can agree the copper foil will induce a nice change to sound, I’m still wondering why the mids would sound better over tweeter for copper foils. ? Is this due to the coil cutting more of the highs smoother? Essentially way I see it, a choke will eliminate high frequencies.. larger the coil, more that’s gone. With the tweeter picking up fine details I figure it would work best in that circuit for quality. I also agree that the mid circuit would also benefit from copper foil inductor. Actually thinking more about it, I understand why folks are saying mids.

I do have Mills resistors, I’m thinking of using.. my next choice due to watching some and getting advise from would be Path Audio. But, budget wise, that’s close to 150 in resistors. Lol. Next time!



I have never actually unwrapped a copper foil inductor, so I appreciate your words on that.  I'm going to try it soon......
I'm not sure why there would be foil inductors in the mid range and not in the tweeter circuit.  I think it would be beneficial to both, but if it's a GR thing then there has to be a reason for it.  It may have to do with the inductor in the mid circuit being in series to induce the low pass filter while the tweeter circuit has the inductor in parallel as a part of the high pass circuit.  Maybe it's more important to have a better inductor in series since that's where the "information" is passing through.  But I will let the smart people inform me on that.  It gets beyond my knowledge.
I use mills resistors but my newest design will have Path Audio Resistors.  I haven't used them yet but I'm looking forward to it.

Shives

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 217
  • I like French fries
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #8 on: Today at 04:29 pm »
Lol. I’m ok with circuits and such, but so many are more blessed with knowledge! So, I bow down… just like gaining more then one thought.

See, that’s my whole question. Copper foils, where they would work best. I thought the tweeter could benefit most, but I can see how the mids would as well!

This also asks the question, can you use (example mid circuit on Statik) a normal coil for the larger inductor, and use a copper foil for the smaller in series. Would this effect phase relation to much, and cause issues? Being what I have, and the work before me, would it be best to find a way to use the high end coils I have? Or trade/sell them out. I would love to use them, but use them properly. Why I’m asking the folks here. Ha ha.

You and I both letting the smarter answer. Ha ha. It’s really awesome and the forums are great help. Thanks man! I appreciate your words! What are you working on? What are you going to use the path audios in?

Sincerely thank you!

corndog71

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1403
  • Some people call me Rob.
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #9 on: Today at 05:05 pm »
My suggestion to use the foils "in the signal path" is as Danny B puts it "in series" with the driver.  This is where the foils will help the most.

The other way they are used is parallel to the drivers.  They basically bridge between the positive and negative.  I know some have said these matter too.  Ideally they should be high quality but don't necessarily need to be foils.  That said if you have the right values then use them!  :thumb:

Shives

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 217
  • I like French fries
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #10 on: Today at 06:42 pm »
Corndog, thanks man! I appreciate it much.

DannyBadorine

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 197
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #11 on: Today at 07:59 pm »

You and I both letting the smarter answer. Ha ha. It’s really awesome and the forums are great help. Thanks man! I appreciate your words! What are you working on? What are you going to use the path audios in?


https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=179251.msg1884223#msg1884223

Chewbacca

Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #12 on: Today at 11:09 pm »
My suggestion to use the foils "in the signal path" is as Danny B puts it "in series" with the driver.  This is where the foils will help the most.

The other way they are used is parallel to the drivers.  They basically bridge between the positive and negative.  I know some have said these matter too.  Ideally they should be high quality but don't necessarily need to be foils.  That said if you have the right values then use them!  :thumb:

Alright, so this has been on my mind for some time. I've been wondering why the Otica kit didn't include foil inductors on the tweeter circuit, and it looks like my question has been answered; both of them on the circuit are in parallel, bridging the +/-. So my question is, is it worth upgrading these to foils?

Also, there's an erse cap that is wired in parallel as well - any audible difference in upgrading this? Or would these be more psycho-acoustic (brain tricking, but nothing actually audible) upgrades?

I was originally planning on replacing the whole tweeter circuit with higher quality parts, and it totaled to about $400 (but I can reuse the sonicap and miflex).

Of course the resistors are in the signal path/in series, and I plan on replacing these with some Path resistors. Would this in reality be the only worthwhile upgrade? ...I would much rather spend $100 on resistors (crazy price for 4 resistors... I know) than the $400 for some extra 'bling' on the crossovers.

Thanks to any who can give some insight!! :thumb:

Shives

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 217
  • I like French fries
Re: Crossover questions for Statik’s and Voce!
« Reply #13 on: Today at 11:20 pm »
Chewy!! Welcome to the fold!!

Yes, these are awesome questions!! And same things I’m wondering.

I love it.

Same things I’m wondering.

So far, copper foil in series for mid is best.