Digital Amp

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amandarae

Digital Amp
« on: 26 Nov 2004, 09:02 pm »
Klaus,

Any news regarding your digital amp project?

Thanks,

Abe

John151

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Re: Digital Amp
« Reply #1 on: 26 Nov 2004, 09:48 pm »
Quote from: amandarae
Klaus,

Any news regarding your digital amp project?

Thanks,

Abe


Klaus discussed the status of the digital amp recently in this thread:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=14538

amandarae

Digital Amp
« Reply #2 on: 27 Nov 2004, 01:30 am »
Thanks john151!  I read the post, but just wondering if there are new developments that's all.  I guess I have to wait 'til January all call Klaus himself.

cheers

mdconnelly

News about the digital amp?
« Reply #3 on: 1 Mar 2005, 04:42 pm »
Not to be a nag, but haven't heard anything in quite some time... any updates or timeframe on this?

Eduardo AAVM

Digital Amp
« Reply #4 on: 1 Mar 2005, 11:27 pm »
Well I know he is still perfecting it... You know everything must be on par to Klaus' high standards to see the public light.

Marbles

Digital Amp
« Reply #5 on: 1 Mar 2005, 11:34 pm »
We'll know more after the Montreal show....

alex_odyssey_sg

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Digital Amp
« Reply #6 on: 2 Mar 2005, 09:54 am »
Just for curiosity sake, anyone heard digital amps like Jeff Roland, JJaz before?

Alex

Brian

Digital Amp
« Reply #7 on: 2 Mar 2005, 10:49 am »
Quote from: alex_odyssey_sg
Just for curiosity sake, anyone heard digital amps like Jeff Roland, JJaz before?

Alex


I have heard a JJAZ vs a Naim. No doubt in my mind that the Naim was better. The level of details on the JJAZ was impressiv, but it lacked the musicality/emotional engagement of the Naim. The sound was to "pixelized". I have to say I only heard the JJAZ about 1-2 hours, as we prefered the Naim...

As I read Klaus's comments on the digital, he also thinks that digital amp lacks emotions, and this is one of the things he aims to improve.

Brian

alex_odyssey_sg

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Digital Amp
« Reply #8 on: 2 Mar 2005, 03:26 pm »
Brian,

How much does the JJaz cost in USD? I am not surprised it lacks emotion...

Alex

BradJudy

Digital Amp
« Reply #9 on: 2 Mar 2005, 06:20 pm »
Quote from: alex_odyssey_sg
Brian,

How much does the JJaz cost in USD? I am not surprised it lacks emotion...

Alex


You can see some prices on the Boulder Cables site here: http://www.boldercables.com/Store.asp?m=TheBolderCableCompany&n=10&k=132953&s=JJAZ+Digital+Amplifiers

amandarae

Digital Amp
« Reply #10 on: 3 Mar 2005, 01:13 am »
Quote from: alex_odyssey_sg
Just for curiosity sake, anyone heard digital amps like Jeff Roland, JJaz before?

Alex


I do!  It is not thin, nor un-emotional by all means.  I also heard the eAr, the ARC, and the BelCanto.  One thing that needs to take into consideration when using a PWM (I learned that there is no such thing as a digital amp!) is the preamp being use.  Most PWM amps does not have the conventional 100K input impedance.  If the preamp cannot drive or sink the input signal, then the problem of "thinness" can be a result.

It always escapes me in my research on why some commented those audio "cliche" when hearing a PWM amp.  The module acts only as a valve, that opens or limits the amount of current to the output.  Does it amplify the signal? How can a binary number be amplified if we in fact call it a "digital" amp?
The very large bandwidth (very fast switching) added a sonic signature to the music as compared to a slower active device (i.e. transistor) and you can actually hear it? How? The switching speed is beyond human hearing!
I want to know because I want to be educated.  

IMHO, the power supply is the "one" that will contribute to the sonic signature (if there's any) of a PWM amp.  The Stratos line has a very good , properly designed power supply.  I doubt it if a PWM switching module will not sound good with that as the one driving it.  Besides, you do not have to change a lot of things.  Besides the main power supply arteries (torroid, rectifiers, filters), it already has a relay and protective switching, etc. not to mention binding post, input jacks and the whole case enchilada.  Just take out the input section and replaced the active devices (transistors) per side with a say, Hypex UcD 400 (very important though at +- 60 volt rail according to Hypex) module, and away we go.  With this scenario, if the sound is thin, I do not think it is the module doing it don't you think?

 I am not adressing my inquiry to anybody in particular.  I just want to know why and where those perception originates from.  Ah, I think I know!  Personal preference!  But seriously, what is taking Klaus so long.
Maybe he is still experimenting with different modules.  Hypex, Tripath, ICE, or maybe Halcro.  One thing for sure though, when this amps gets out, it will sound great as most of Klaus amps does that we know.

Disclosure:  I am an owner of a PWM amp.  We all know how long the Stratos "burns in".  IME, same is true for the amp that I own and maybe even longer.  it is handy to have a FryKleaner btw.

cheers

alex_odyssey_sg

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Digital Amp
« Reply #11 on: 3 Mar 2005, 03:23 am »
amandarae, thanks for your wonderful post! Yes... it all boils down to personal preference. That's what hifi is all about!

I heard the Jeff Roland and Flying Moles. Objectively speaking, they can do a lot of things very well. Like clear highs, transparent, etc. However, I just couldn't sit down and listen to it for 15 mins. In fact, at one point I got so irritated by the Flying Moles that I had to move away from the speakers.

Please do not see me as dissing the Flying Mole, it's just that I really cannot see myself living with this kind of sound. Yes, it's personal preference. Jeff Roland is a slightly different story, it seems to achieve a better balance (much better IMHO) than the Flying Moles. But it certainly did not trash the Flying Moles in all areas even though it's 5 times it's price. But still, I don't think I can live with this kind of sound. I cannot see myself sitting listening to my hifi for 2 hours with these amps.

On the other hand, I am attracted to it by it's size and prowess. My wife would love them instead of the huge blocks of steel for amps. So I may just end up buying these kind of amps for my secondary system for very casual listening. Hey...never say never!

And yes... I agree that system matching is even more critical here. During the listening session, they were using some fast silver cables. Yes, the system is very clean and fast, but I think it's a big mistake IMHO. Like I said, if I cannot even tolerate 15 mins of listening... No matter how clean, how fast, how good the highs, etc...etc, how can I live with such a system?!? If my mini-compo allows me to sit down for more than 15 mins, I will rate it better simply from the fact that it doesn't irritate me!

Whether it's musical or not... Such subjective terms are... end of the day... subjective. one man's meat is another man's poison.

Alex

klaus@odyssey

Digital Amp
« Reply #12 on: 4 Mar 2005, 01:54 am »
Well,  I  definitely have my own opinion about the whole digital thingy.  After all,  listened to most of them and even bought and sold a few just to get a feeling.

Yes,  I think that even at its stage now our amp will do very well when compared to others,  but there is still the one issue that I have:

Everything,  100 %  everything that I do has to do with wholehearted and complete emotional orgasms.  It has to have soul,  and the correct richness and bloom in harmonics,  overtones and undertones.   And it's simply not there yet,  that easy.
Yep,  I can offer the amp tomorrow,  people will probably go nuts over it,  and I can make some $,  but man,  I'd like to get that extra inch or two !!!!

I know that nobody wants to admit one way or the other that emotions / soul / whatever you call it /  takes a back seat in their system or listening preference.  Of course not,  and to be absolutely correct,  yes,  digital systems do channel emotions,  of course.  How can you not be moved when listening to your favorite music even through a boombox?  That's not the issue here,  and only when you get deep into the trenches you know.  There are so many people here and in other forums that go so completely nuts and absolute about their systems and components,  and when you dig a bit deeper,  you realize that they are opinion driven by peers or only had exposure to a few different systems in their lifetimes.  No,  not listening to gear at shows or dealers,  that doesn't help you at all,  but instead live with it for a while and see if you can take your thoughts of the gear and really ,  freely listen to your system,  with components a, b, c, d, e...  doing the synergy thingy.

Anyway,  lastly,  there is a delay because I'm not a designer.  I trust and rely on the people that I work with,  but that also means that it goes a bit slower than I want to.  


Remember the good thing and wait thingy,

Klaus

Anton

Digital Amp
« Reply #13 on: 7 Mar 2005, 03:40 am »
Well, here we go again, and I hope I don't get burned again. As I posted quite a time ago, I have heard the Jeff Rowlands, that is, the 201, 501, 301 and 302. Of all, the only ones that really grabbed my attention were the 301 and the 302 (302 at $16,0000.00, a pair of 301 at $31,000.00, and I do not have that kind of money to spare right now).

Neither the 201 nor the 501 really hit the mark with me. We auditioned all at my home, a group of audio friends and the Rowland dealer. All of them, and I mean all, including the dealer, found the four Odyssey Stratos more musical, detailed, with more air and bigger soundstage. However, the 302 and the two 301 sounded much much better in all respects.

According to the dealer, and I confirmed that with Rowland Design Group, the 301 and 302 have a power supply with a transformer, caps, etc.

In addition, and according to both the dealer and Rowland Design Group, none of the four amps are digital. Please, do not ask me the whys or whats because I do not know.

What I learned from the listening and the research is that it seems (remember, I am not an engineer) that a well designed power supply can make or break an amplifier. According to the dealer and the JRDG, that is one of the differences between the 201-501 series and the 300 series, appart from some selection of modules (ICE modules?), a lot of work on those modules, and other design and build elements.

Happy listening!

amandarae

Digital Amp
« Reply #14 on: 7 Mar 2005, 05:01 pm »
Quote from: Anton
Well, here we go again, and I hope I don't get burned again. As I posted quite a time ago, I have heard the Jeff Rowlands, that is, the 201, 501, 301 and 302. Of all, the only ones that really grabbed my attention were the 301 and the 302 (302 at $16,0000.00, a pair of 301 at $31,000.00, and I do not have that kind of money to spare right now).

Neither the 201 nor the 501 really hit the mark with me. We auditioned all at my home, a group of audio friends and the Rowland dealer. All of them, and I mean al ...


Yep, the 201 and 501 I believe uses a switching discrete power supply (in other words a module) also, whereas the 301 and 302 uses a conventional PSU (torroid, rectifier, and caps to provide rail voltages).  All does not do any amplification in the "digital" domain.

I am convinced that the PSU is the main difference here, as I wrote on my post above.  When I was auditioning PWM amps, that is my reasoning behind why some amps using the same modules sounded different.  My PWM amp weighs close to 60 lbs(?).  It uses a bridge ICE module (2) that probably weighs around 4 lbs. combined.  Assuming that the case, and connectors weigh about 20 lbs (I doubt it!),  the remaining 36 lbs shows you how massive the torroidal power supply is and the caps used.  This is a  14"x14 1/2"x6 3/4" box!

 
Quote
All of them, and I mean all, including the dealer, found the four Odyssey Stratos more musical, detailed, with more air and bigger soundstage. However, the 302 and the two 301 sounded much much better in all respects.


Could be except the "detailed" part.  A PWM amp that has a switching rate (defines bandwidth) faster than any conventional amps can ever dream of could not possibly come up short as far as detail (i.e. allowing the signal present at the recording to pass) is concern.  But as all others, it is sytem and "ear" dependent.

So, still, I will wait patiently whenever Klaus releases his PWM amp.  I am a sucker for value :wink:

cheers

mac

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Digital Amp
« Reply #15 on: 7 Mar 2005, 05:12 pm »
Quote from: amandarae
... I am a sucker for value :wink:

Yeah, me too.  

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17313

muralman1

Digital Amp
« Reply #16 on: 7 Mar 2005, 05:29 pm »
Amarandae, amen, and kudos to your humility.

Thanks

Vince

djbnh

Digital Amp
« Reply #17 on: 7 Mar 2005, 07:41 pm »
Quote from: Anton
Of all, the only ones that really grabbed my attention were the 301 and the 302 (302 at $16,0000.00, a pair of 301 at $31,000.00, and I do not have that kind of money to spare right now).

Neither the 201 nor the 501 really hit the mark with me. We auditioned all at my home, a group of audio friends and the Rowland dealer. All of them, and I mean all, including the dealer, found the four Odyssey Stratos more musical, detailed, with more air and bigger soundstage. However, the 302 and the two 301 sounded much much better in all respects.


Nice to hear the $1,150 ($1,275 w/cap upgrade) Odyssey Stratos mentioned in a comparison with $16K and $31K equipment, respectively. Goes to the previous posters' "value" comments, IMHO.

amandarae

Digital Amp
« Reply #18 on: 8 Mar 2005, 01:33 am »
Quote from: mac
Quote from: amandarae
... I am a sucker for value :wink:

Yeah, me too.  

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17313


Very nice amps Mac 8) !
First rate workmanship IMHO.


Since this is off topic, I posted a question for you on the other forum.  I would not disrespect Klaus by anu means in his forum so please take a look at it.  Thanks!

amandarae

Digital Amp
« Reply #19 on: 8 Mar 2005, 01:34 am »
Quote from: mac
Quote from: amandarae
... I am a sucker for value :wink:

Yeah, me too.  

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=17313


Very nice amps Mac 8) !
First rate workmanship IMHO.


Since this is off topic, I posted a question for you on the other forum.  I would not disrespect Klaus by any means in his forum :nono:  So please take a look at it and I appreciate your input.  Thanks!