[Gumby]

It would be fun trying.   

Is this why the driver surrounds of woofers on Pro Speakers are different than home audio?   I notice they have a tight accordion-like surround.  I’ve been reading about the Klipsch Heritage line of speakers and notice this feature on their bass drivers as well.

Example, look at the picture of the woofer on the Klipsch Cornwall. It looks like it can take a beating.  The specs state a max SPL of 119 dB Continous.

But then, I see the woofers of the Bryston Middle T speakers:...huge beefy bulbous bass surrounds.  They look like fighters too.  Max SPL of 112 dB, 10 to 250 watts,...that’s impressive. 

[rollo]

Your speakers are 84db efficient, not to put too fine a point on it, add more power.  A lot more.  And your calculations are all based on a one meter distance that doesn't reflect real world sound levels in real rooms.  See if you can beg, borrow, or steal a 400 wpc stereo amp for a day or two, you'll never go back to underpowered amps again.

   Yes sir. Effortless power never hurt a thing. Well good power that is. Try same brand amp with different power rating and be smitten.


charles

[CanadianMaestro]

To OP.

1. Can you audition an amp at home?
2. Get a 14B2. Any future speaker upgrade can be done with total peace of mind. Plenty power to spare.

[lokie]

There is two ways to get more power. More watts/current  in your amp and more efficient speakers.

[Gumby]

To OP.

1. Can you audition an amp at home?
2. Get a 14B2. Any future speaker upgrade can be done with total peace of mind. Plenty power to spare.

I am so curious now, I have to try a home demo.

[brj]

One of the more informative power related posts I've seen on AC:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114010.msg1190317#msg1190317

Related:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=115386.msg1208277#msg1208277

The speakers will only draw as much power as they need, so you're only 'wasting' power if the larger amp's idle draw is also larger, which is definitely the case with class A amps, but less of an issue for other amp classes.  (And the last I checked, Bryston amps were all class AB and thus this is much less of an issue.)

Given your speaker sensitivity, I agree with others, however, that the dynamics of your system will likely improve with the availability of additional power.  There are various calculators on the web that can help, and you'll want details such as listening distance, placement in the room (near a wall or corner vs into room as relates to boundary reinforcement), and desired amplifier headroom.  Usually 3 dB is the absolute minimum recommended headroom, though I've seen recommendations as high as 18 dB for live (or otherwise highly dynamic) music.  And as others have said, the impedance and phase angle curves of your speaker may show amplifier challenges that the nominal impedance value will hide.

In short, I've reached Mike's conclusion that if you truly want to capture the full dynamics of well recorded music without distortion, it takes a lot more power to drive speakers (with passive crossovers) than most people realize, even at moderate volumes.  Though at the end of the day, if you're happy with your setup, that's all that matters.  Many might prioritize other audio qualities (detail, imaging, etc.) over dynamics, and that's an entirely appropriate personal choice.

(While also focusing on other speaker design goals like constant directivity, I've prioritized dynamics to the extent that I've moved to an active speaker setup with highly sensitive drivers and what many would consider an overkill level of power for such an easy load, and the difference in 'jump factor' is startling.  I find it addictive, and worth the system complexity, though I completely understand that others may not.  This is one reason that I've followed Bryston's active speaker development with great curiosity.)

[Grit]

Here's a fun calculator that will make your head hurt a bit when trying to calculate db output.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/2013322spl-calculator/

[JLM]

Active speakers do have potential advantages, but this is overstating the benefits.  I've heard plenty of traditional systems that sound better than active speaker setups.

You can always find good and bad examples of each.  Suggest you read up on why recording professionals go active.  The professionals have no tolerance for "entertaining" colorations that audiophiles seem to crave, they work to find the truth.  Frankly I'm amazed that active speakers like JBL 305's sound as good as they do based on size and cost. 

Getting back to efficiency versus size of amp.  I've found that low efficiency means poor dynamics, lots of distortion, ultimate sound pressure levels and high efficiency translates into all sorts of sonic anomalies.  In my experience 90 - 95 dB/w/m at 8 ohms is the ideal compromise at realistic pricing (assuming those are honest real world values). 


The grip an amp has on the speakers is more than just numbers on paper.  It's a matter of control.  Resolution of detail improves if you move from barely adequate to plenty of power and control can improve.  Thankfully we live in the age of class D where power is extremely cheap.

[witchdoctor]

Active speakers do have potential advantages, but this is overstating the benefits.  I've heard plenty of traditional systems that sound better than active speaker setups.

Look at the title of this thread, as a general rule would an active speaker benefit from MORE power??
I own both types of systems so I am not implying passive systems are bad, just that active systems are better:

https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_4/feature-article-active-speakers-12-2002.html

[Gumby]

The professionals have no tolerance for "entertaining" colorations that audiophiles seem to crave, they work to find the truth.  Frankly I'm amazed that active speakers like JBL 305's sound as good as they do based on size and cost. 

Your post reminds me of another topic I’ve been curious about:....Pro Gear.

Has anyone tried comparing pro speakers and amps to home hi-fi?    I’ve read mixed opinions on this subject.  Some say pro gear is only designed to withstand brutal abuse and always work.  Others say it destroys overpriced hi-fi.  Obviously, the applications are different: address a crowd versus a crowd of one. 

I’ve experienced intimate and large concerts where the sound was too loud, harsh and honky, but sometimes unbelievable.  So the potential is there. 

[Elizabeth]

Pro gear vs audiophile is like a truck vs a sports car.
To get from point a to point b and carry all your junk. Truck.
To do it having fun.. Sport car. (too bad you have to leave all your junk someplace else.)

[Gumby]

Pro gear vs audiophile is like a truck vs a sports car.
To get from point a to point b and carry all your junk. Truck.
To do it having fun.. Sport car. (too bad you have to leave all your junk someplace else.)

Nice analogy.   But slinging through muddy country or plowing through snow dumped backroads, in a truck,  can be as fun as the sports car. 

[CanadianMaestro]

Would prefer cruising in a sporty, on the Munich autobahn, on the way to Munich High-End show to look for the next great speakers-Amp combo.
 

[witchdoctor]

Your post reminds me of another topic I’ve been curious about:....Pro Gear.

Has anyone tried comparing pro speakers and amps to home hi-fi?    I’ve read mixed opinions on this subject.  Some say pro gear is only designed to withstand brutal abuse and always work.  Others say it destroys overpriced hi-fi.  Obviously, the applications are different: address a crowd versus a crowd of one. 

I’ve experienced intimate and large concerts where the sound was too loud, harsh and honky, but sometimes unbelievable.  So the potential is there.

GREAT question. I compared the pro and consumer versions of the JBL Studio 230 and JBL LSR 305. It wasn't a precise coparison as the 230's have 6 inch drivers and the lsr's are either 5 inch or 8 inch. I preferred the 230's hooked up to my Carver AV 505 amp. The 230's are $400 retail and the Carver amp $1000 retail. The 305's are about $300 all in. The passive setup did NOT sound $1100 better but I did prefer it. However I recently heard the new model II versions and I think I prefer the new active version II model.

[Gumby]

Would prefer cruising in a sporty, on the Munich autobahn, on the way to Munich High-End show to look for the next great speakers-Amp combo.
 

And a private jet. 

[sfraser]

Pro gear vs audiophile is like a truck vs a sports car.
To get from point a to point b and carry all your junk. Truck.
To do it having fun.. Sport car. (too bad you have to leave all your junk someplace else.)

I see where you are coming from, but it in not universal. Take Bryston amps for example, other than the size of the logo and gain controls the pro and domestic versions are identical. Same could be said for studio monitors such as the professional version of the PMC MB2's.  Rugged black exterior , same goodness on the interrior. 

But I drive a 3/4 ton Cummins diesel truck : )

[drummermitchell]

A year ago I was curious about pro power compared to consumer amps.
Been using 28's since 06 I believe.
Anyway went to L+M to see if  they had a Crown amp to rent,no go.
Have heard and read Crown has been one of the top for some audiophiles(AVS).
No Crown amp,but they did have a Yorkville AP4K 1800w per channel into 2 or 4ohm load.
Using Revel 50A's.
All I can say is that the bottom end was fantastic,drums percussion ect was the best I have heard ever.
Control was scarily good.
However the highs were not to pleasant.
Would love to go  active speakers to try say hi power Crown for the low end and bryston on the top.
Never heard such control on the bottom end as with the AP4K.
The Crown I assume should be alot better.
could go to my dealer and home audition some bryston actives and use my 28s on top or 7's.
 would be fun to hear how the pro and consumer amps would work together or not.

[witchdoctor]

Jmaes, aren't Bryston amps used both in Pro and Home use? What's the difference from your end?

[James Tanner]

Jmaes, aren't Bryston amps used both in Pro and Home use? What's the difference from your end?

Yes the amplifiers are the same for Home and Pro other than features such as gain controls and 19 inch black rackmount etc.

In our opinion an accurate amp is needed in both cases.

james

[JLM]

Pro gear vs audiophile is like a truck vs a sports car.
To get from point a to point b and carry all your junk. Truck.
To do it having fun.. Sport car. (too bad you have to leave all your junk someplace else.)

I agree with your analogy as it applies towards professional sound reinforcement gear, but not as it applies to studio gear. 

Studio gear are tools for the professional to do his/her job, to analyze and adjust the sound to be as true to the original performance as possible.  Their (active) speakers must provide the most accurate sound possible, to avoid mistakes that other listeners would pick up on with their systems.  These professionals are paid to work, to produce in timely fashion, and not embarrass their bosses.  Audiophiles simply want to be entertained by whatever fancies their ears and have no standards to answer to, and in fact often dismiss measurements/corrections.