Anyone using subs with their Omega's and if yes, do you crossover your Omega's?

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HiFiJeff

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So I currently own a pair of Supercharged 3XRS's with the active built in 8inch sub. Which I love! But I am going to a dual RS5 floor stander without the subs built in. I will be adding subs later on. The speakers sound amazing by themself but the sub really fills everything out, there is only so much bass a 4.5 driver can produce. Anyway, I saw someone on this forum using his Omega's setting on top of Omega subs and then using larger subs for the real low stuff. He was also using some kind of outboard crossover. And had a 110HZ and above signal going from the crossover to the SET amp which in turn fed his Omega's. This is kind of what I want to do. Having two 8 or 10inch subs to integrate with my Omega's and then maybe a single 15inch sub to handle the real low stuff and movie soundtracks. What would be the best approach to this? And do the Omega's really shine with a little bass management or do they sound best just sending them a full range signal? I have seen even some full range speakers truly come into their own with some bass management and subs augmenting the low end octaves.

pstrisik

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Sounds like me.  The mid-bass woofers are Rythmik driver and amp with Louis graciously building cabs to integrate with and match the SAMs.  I have Rythmik 12" subs separately to augment the very low end.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134489.0

The early part of the thread is planning.  There is more real stuff later on after I received them.

I am using a Marchand outboard active variable crossover.  The variable part has let me experiment with xover frequencies.  For me, there is a clear tradeoff between fullness/body and ethereal imaging.  The former with higher xover points and the latter with lower.  Given that I also have the 12" subs, I have been able to find something of the best of both worlds.  Seems odd, but I'm crossing over now at 70Hz.  The mid-bass woofers and subs cross over at 50Hz (I have a choice between 30 and 50).  So those are tight ranges.  Very effective though. 

.......Peter 

HiFiJeff

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Sounds like me.  The mid-bass woofers are Rythmik driver and amp with Louis graciously building cabs to integrate with and match the SAMs.  I have Rythmik 12" subs separately to augment the very low end.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=134489.0

The early part of the thread is planning.  There is more real stuff later on after I received them.

I am using a Marchand outboard active variable crossover.  The variable part has let me experiment with xover frequencies.  For me, there is a clear tradeoff between fullness/body and ethereal imaging.  The former with higher xover points and the latter with lower.  Given that I also have the 12" subs, I have been able to find something of the best of both worlds.  Seems odd, but I'm crossing over now at 70Hz.  The mid-bass woofers and subs cross over at 50Hz (I have a choice between 30 and 50).  So those are tight ranges.  Very effective though. 

.......Peter 


I am trying to read and work all at the same time so I might have missed something. So your monitors cover 60hz and higher, the mid bass is 60-30 then everything below that to the big subs?

doggie

I have the Super Alnico High Output speakers. I run them full range and have an SVS2000 12" sub crossed over at 60Hz for the deep bass.

When I bought these speakers Louis suggested that I might want to keep the sub, which I had been using with my previous Omegas..

pstrisik

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I am trying to read and work all at the same time so I might have missed something. So your monitors cover 60hz and higher, the mid bass is 60-30 then everything below that to the big subs?

The monitors are doing 70Hz up and the mid-bass is 70-50.  Sub below 50.

When I run the Sams with the woofers but no sub, I set the woofers to extend down to 30Hz.  If we ever move, particularly to a smaller space, I wouldn't be upset about having to leave the subs behind. 

But, as Doggie suggests,  a pair of subs of some kind is definitely an enhancement over which we have great control, like setting the low pass frequency, sometimes slope and damping factor (Rythmiks), as well as gain and phase.  Once tweaked in for a smooth, continuous frequency range, etc., they become part of the whole, ie, don't hear subs.  IMO, no down side except in your pocket and floor space.  Even the floor space could be minimal if monitors over subs.


Hubb

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HiFi Jeff I have a Martin Logan Depth i sub I'm using with my new Super 3 High Output XRSs. My pre has two line level outs. I run one to the Kitoki which runs the Omegas full range.  Pure signal path. The second out goes to the sub. The low pass on the sub is set to 35hz. It has a pretty gentle but fixed slope.  I have a four position phase control, a master gain and a secondary gain hinged at 25hz.  The sub has three 8" drivers designed to minimize room and cabinet resonances.  A very important factor in sub/main speak interface is very careful set up of the Omegas to make sure they are optimally energizing the room.  If you mains aren't set in the best position in the room for mechanical coupling with the room all the messing with sub settings in the world can't make up for it.

Michael

mrvco

I'm running my Omegas (7XRS) full-range and my DeepOmega8 crossed over at ~136 Hz, but now that I'm running separates I'm thinking about trying an in-line RCA high-pass filter between my pre and amp.  Has anyone tried the Harrison Labs high-pass in-line RCA crossovers?  http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/

HiFiJeff

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HiFi Jeff I have a Martin Logan Depth i sub I'm using with my new Super 3 High Output XRSs. My pre has two line level outs. I run one to the Kitoki which runs the Omegas full range.  Pure signal path. The second out goes to the sub. The low pass on the sub is set to 35hz. It has a pretty gentle but fixed slope.  I have a four position phase control, a master gain and a secondary gain hinged at 25hz.  The sub has three 8" drivers designed to minimize room and cabinet resonances.  A very important factor in sub/main speak interface is very careful set up of the Omegas to make sure they are optimally energizing the room.  If you mains aren't set in the best position in the room for mechanical coupling with the room all the messing with sub settings in the world can't make up for it.

Michael

Hey Hubb,

Can you clarify? So your pre-amp has 2 sets of line level outs, is that what you mean? So one pair goes ton the Kitoki's inputs and the the other pair goes to the amp on the subwoofer right?  That's what I have on my dac. One set of pre-outs and one line level out that specifically says subwoofer out.

Hubb

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HiFiJeff - Bingo.  That's it e exactly.

Michael

doggie

...A very important factor in sub/main speak interface is very careful set up of the Omegas to make sure they are optimally energizing the room.  If you mains aren't set in the best position in the room for mechanical coupling with the room all the messing with sub settings in the world can't make up for it.

+1. As my system gets better I find more and more that room set up was holding me back all along. I am now focusing on the positioning of the Omegas and the sub relative to the room and my listening position. I have a few acoustic panels but am finding that things like toe-in and tilt-back make a huge difference. Even the placement of other pieces of furniture and wall decorations matter. Unfortunately some of these things may be hard to change especially if your living companion has input :-)

The room IS the elephant!

pstrisik

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I'm running my Omegas (7XRS) full-range and my DeepOmega8 crossed over at ~136 Hz, but now that I'm running separates I'm thinking about trying an in-line RCA high-pass filter between my pre and amp.  Has anyone tried the Harrison Labs high-pass in-line RCA crossovers?  http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/

I use Harrison hi-pass filters for my supertweeters.  A pair of 15kHz, 2nd order slope before the amp that powers the tweeters.  They do ok for that purpose.  I don't know how the quality would be in a more critical range like 100-150Hz.  They do have some insertion loss.  He claims very low, but I can tell audibly. 

But, at something like $25 a pair, they are certainly worth a try.  If I were going that route, I would order a pair at my best guess for optimal filter frequency.  Maybe two pair to try two different frequencies.  I could then get a sense of what frequency really would be my preference - either one of those or a bit higher or lower.  I could then get a better quality filter at that frequency.  A great contender would be Marchand (he made my variable crossover, model XM66).  He has a simple passive (as in not powered) hi-pass filter at $295.  You can specify the frequency and the slope.  I would really want to know what frequency I wanted since you can't change it.  So Harrison FMODs could help build that confidence.

But, it may be that the FMODs do the trick for you on their own.

To make things more complicated (never simple are they?), what is the slope on the Omega subs?  Is it adjustable?  Harrison only makes 2nd order I think; maybe he would do 4th order as custom for extra $$.  The slopes of low pass in the sub and high pass to the mains don't have to match, but they should on paper.

.........Peter

mrvco

+1. As my system gets better I find more and more that room set up was holding me back all along. I am now focusing on the positioning of the Omegas and the sub relative to the room and my listening position. I have a few acoustic panels but am finding that things like toe-in and tilt-back make a huge difference. Even the placement of other pieces of furniture and wall decorations matter. Unfortunately some of these things may be hard to change especially if your living companion has input :-)

The room IS the elephant!

Finding the proper toe-in was absolutely crucial for my Omegas.  They required more than I expected, but when I got it right the soundstage snapped into focus and everything turned magical.  I've bumped one speaker or the other out of alignment a couple of times and it makes a difference that is immediately apparent.

mrvco

I use Harrison hi-pass filters for my supertweeters.  A pair of 15kHz, 2nd order slope before the amp that powers the tweeters.  They do ok for that purpose.  I don't know how the quality would be in a more critical range like 100-150Hz.  They do have some insertion loss.  He claims very low, but I can tell audibly. 

But, at something like $25 a pair, they are certainly worth a try.  If I were going that route, I would order a pair at my best guess for optimal filter frequency.  Maybe two pair to try two different frequencies.  I could then get a sense of what frequency really would be my preference - either one of those or a bit higher or lower.  I could then get a better quality filter at that frequency.  A great contender would be Marchand (he made my variable crossover, model XM66).  He has a simple passive (as in not powered) hi-pass filter at $295.  You can specify the frequency and the slope.  I would really want to know what frequency I wanted since you can't change it.  So Harrison FMODs could help build that confidence.

But, it may be that the FMODs do the trick for you on their own.

To make things more complicated (never simple are they?), what is the slope on the Omega subs?  Is it adjustable?  Harrison only makes 2nd order I think; maybe he would do 4th order as custom for extra $$.  The slopes of low pass in the sub and high pass to the mains don't have to match, but they should on paper.

.........Peter

Thanks, I don't know what the slope is on the DeepOmega cross-over.  I may start out with something pretty low (50Hz maybe) since I'm not looking for any sort of radical change, just to take a bit of the lowest lows off the speakers and see what difference it makes.

pstrisik

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Thanks, I don't know what the slope is on the DeepOmega cross-over.  I may start out with something pretty low (50Hz maybe) since I'm not looking for any sort of radical change, just to take a bit of the lowest lows off the speakers and see what difference it makes.

I've not heard Louis' subs but, since he made them, I'm sure they will do better than average blending with his mains.

mrvco

Yep, without a doubt.

HiFiJeff

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I've not heard Louis' subs but, since he made them, I'm sure they will do better than average blending with his mains.

Absolutely!  My built in active 8's are seamless.  I can't tell that I am listening to a subwoofer.  It's just a wall of sound. No localization at all. Love it!

DaveC113

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You can get great results going down this path. However, it's expensive and complicated...

I would invest in a calibrated mic with the OmniMic system or REW, it's really easy to use and understand and will point you in the right direction. Then, get a 2x4 DSP system, just  a basic one to experiment with crossover slope and frequency.

For starting points, if you can get a sub right next to each speaker, firing forward and in stereo you can probably push the crossover frequency up to around 150 Hz (depending on the sub, some won't sound good up that high), which will really fill out the impact and energy in the low end. Start with a 1st order crossover on the Omegas and see if that's enough so you avoid excessive excursion at the volumes you'll be listening. Bass is usually better crossed over steeper, like 24 dB. But with DSP you can dial it in to your gear and preferences.

The biggest issue with this is the large amount of capacitance you need for the high pass filter on the Omegas. To not significantly degrade the sound you'll want to use something like Clarity ESA 250V caps with a Jupiter copper foil bypass cap. This will cost hundreds of dollars, and is why you need to measure and experiment before putting the cash down. There are other ways to skin the cat, like a very high rez DSP system, I have a 32/384 unit, but it's not going to be any less expensive than a pile of film caps.

I think for bass you can use the DSP for xo or get a Crown amp with built-in DSP... I'd avoid plate amps. And for the sub go with one that has a driver that sounds ok at higher frequencies. Louis might be able to make front-firing 8s, also AudioKenisis might have a good solution... Maybe get 4 and flank each speaker... :)

While this is more hassle the results will be much better than a traditional sub xo'ed around 50-60 Hz and running the mains full range. The Omegas will be able to play at SPLs you never thought possible, and you'll get the impact/energy in the 50-150 Hz range far better. It can be done seamlessly but might not be easy or inexpensive.

I've heard a lot of tweeters and the Fostex T500AMkII are the ones to get imo, put them on top of the speaker aimed right at the LP. Only a small cap required for xo... I'm using .57 uF right now. Basically, I'm attenuating a higher efficiency tweeter by raising the xo point instead of using resistors. For this, it works perfectly. Lower end tweeters might not be worthwhile... yes the tweeters cost as much as the speakers, but they are totally transparent and blend with the RS5 drivers perfectly.


HiFiJeff

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You can get great results going down this path. However, it's expensive and complicated...

I would invest in a calibrated mic with the OmniMic system or REW, it's really easy to use and understand and will point you in the right direction. Then, get a 2x4 DSP system, just  a basic one to experiment with crossover slope and frequency.

For starting points, if you can get a sub right next to each speaker, firing forward and in stereo you can probably push the crossover frequency up to around 150 Hz (depending on the sub, some won't sound good up that high), which will really fill out the impact and energy in the low end. Start with a 1st order crossover on the Omegas and see if that's enough so you avoid excessive excursion at the volumes you'll be listening. Bass is usually better crossed over steeper, like 24 dB. But with DSP you can dial it in to your gear and preferences.

The biggest issue with this is the large amount of capacitance you need for the high pass filter on the Omegas. To not significantly degrade the sound you'll want to use something like Clarity ESA 250V caps with a Jupiter copper foil bypass cap. This will cost hundreds of dollars, and is why you need to measure and experiment before putting the cash down. There are other ways to skin the cat, like a very high rez DSP system, I have a 32/384 unit, but it's not going to be any less expensive than a pile of film caps.

I think for bass you can use the DSP for xo or get a Crown amp with built-in DSP... I'd avoid plate amps. And for the sub go with one that has a driver that sounds ok at higher frequencies. Louis might be able to make front-firing 8s, also AudioKenisis might have a good solution... Maybe get 4 and flank each speaker... :)

While this is more hassle the results will be much better than a traditional sub xo'ed around 50-60 Hz and running the mains full range. The Omegas will be able to play at SPLs you never thought possible, and you'll get the impact/energy in the 50-150 Hz range far better. It can be done seamlessly but might not be easy or inexpensive.

I've heard a lot of tweeters and the Fostex T500AMkII are the ones to get imo, put them on top of the speaker aimed right at the LP. Only a small cap required for xo... I'm using .57 uF right now. Basically, I'm attenuating a higher efficiency tweeter by raising the xo point instead of using resistors. For this, it works perfectly. Lower end tweeters might not be worthwhile... yes the tweeters cost as much as the speakers, but they are totally transparent and blend with the RS5 drivers perfectly.

Thank you so very much for your information and everyone's input.  Dave you have always given me great advice. I love audio and I love our hobby. But you are correct. This all seems very complicated and expensive. Heck, half of what you were talking about is like a foreign language to me. I am sorry to be so ignorant on the subject but I would consider myself quite the novice. I just know what I like and what sounds good to me. I really do value the opinions and advice given on this forum, for the most part, it's great advice from people who all share our passion. But man, I want to try to keep things simple. I like the minimalist system I have right now but know I want to turn it into a more dynamic and a little more powerful system. Especially for home theater purposes. Hints the reason I am having Louis build me the dual driver RS5 speaker.   

sunnydaze

I'm running my Omegas (7XRS) full-range and my DeepOmega8 crossed over at ~136 Hz, but now that I'm running separates I'm thinking about trying an in-line RCA high-pass filter between my pre and amp.  Has anyone tried the Harrison Labs high-pass in-line RCA crossovers?  http://www.hlabs.com/products/crossovers/

My buddy is high passing his Super Alnico Monitors with these Harrison gizmos, placed line level between pre and amp.  He tried both the 50Hz and 70Hz, and prefers the 70Hz in his rig.

He says they work like a charm with no detectable sonic degradation.   By removing the lows, he can play the SAMs louder with less distortion, greater purity, and a big holographic soundfield.   He runs his 2nd preamp output into his Gallo sub to fill in the lower range.  Tells me it blends perfectly, with no sub localization.

Says that with this setup, he's getting best sound he's ever had.  I haven't personally heard his rig, but he's very experienced with lots of good gear, so I'd tend to believe him.


mrvco

Thanks, definitely worth a shot for ~$25 a pair.  Much cheaper to experiment with than the First Watt B4 Active Crossover :smoke: