AudioCircle
Audio/Video Gear and Systems => Cheap and Cheerful HiFi => Topic started by: wushuliu on 7 Feb 2018, 05:41 pm
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https://hifimediy.com/uda38pro-usb-dac-es9038pro
Hifimediy just released their new DAC for only $249. It's the only ES9038Pro DAC I'm aware of at that low a price. I've been saying how the DAC cycle just gets faster and faster, so this is no surprise.
But there's no free lunch: No Xmos or Amanero boards, so no DSD 256+. Uses the new-ish OPA 1622 headamp, but only one so performance will be limited. No HD650s for this one without a separate amp. Also power hungry and internal power regulators don't look all that impressive but we'll see as they release more info.
This is a pretty basic unit, so no bells and whistles. Frankly, I'm kind of meh about their DACs in general, but still, it's $249 and an ES9038Pro. The next cheapest ES9038Pro with USB I could find is $450 on ebay.
Hifime had only a limited supply to sell before Chinese New Year cut off and those are all sold, so it will be several weeks before they have more in stock.
Yes, I got hold of one of the limited units :wink:
(http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=175746)
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Hello,
I'm very interested on this DAC sincère it has been annonced and also very interested your impressions.
Their 9018 DAC is quite good for the price, I hope this one is better.
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Have you tested yet?
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Have you tested yet?
Yes I've had it for a month now. Unfortunately I didn't get it until after moving and it was another couple weeks before I got it set up. Also my 2 channel setup is now totally different, which is what I normally use to really judge DACs because IMO headphones just don't allow the same level of comparison. Finally, I sold my Sabaj DA3, perhaps prematurely, before the move. So with all these changes I've been less inspired to write a review since I can't make a proper comparison. I'm pretty irritated about the Hifimediy shipping delay preventing me from doing all that.
That said, with my Sennheiser 599s I think it sounds excellent through my PC after some software tweaking. Very much the ESS Sabre sound. I'd like to compare to the Sabaj, but alas I no longer have it. Is it worth the money? Tough to say. Once I got Jplay setup and running, bypassing Windows audio and using linear PS, the dac really started to shine.
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Yes I've had it for a month now. Unfortunately I didn't get it until after moving and it was another couple weeks before I got it set up. Also my 2 channel setup is now totally different, which is what I normally use to really judge DACs because IMO headphones just don't allow the same level of comparison. Finally, I sold my Sabaj DA3, perhaps prematurely, before the move. So with all these changes I've been less inspired to write a review since I can't make a proper comparison. I'm pretty irritated about the Hifimediy shipping delay preventing me from doing all that.
That said, with my Sennheiser 599s I think it sounds excellent through my PC after some software tweaking. Very much the ESS Sabre sound. I'd like to compare to the Sabaj, but alas I no longer have it. Is it worth the money? Tough to say. Once I got Jplay setup and running, bypassing Windows audio and using linear PS, the dac really started to shine.
Thanks always for the great info :thumb:
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I got hold of a sabaj to compare. It's kind of a wash imo. The hifime has perception of depth, soundstage but overall I think the sabaj sounds more realistic. Has more accurate tonality but flatter presentation. My guess is the two opamps in output stage of hifime colors a little bit. Sabaj is direct output from the chip.
Hifime has more power and so more low end oomph.
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I got hold of a sabaj to compare. It's kind of a wash imo. The hifime has perception of depth, soundstage but overall I think the sabaj sounds more realistic. Has more accurate tonality but flatter presentation. My guess is the two opamps in output stage of hifime colors a little bit. Sabaj is direct output from the chip.
Hifime has more power and so more low end oomph.
Wow. Thanks for the comparison. Because of it's price I expected more out of hifime. :icon_surprised:
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Uh oh, I need to revise my review! A while back Hifime notified that the first batch of dacs, which included mine, had an error in the spdif power supply build. They said they would send a replacement with a fix or I could diy myself. I told them to send a replacement. Good thing I did. I finally got the replacement a couple week ago and just let it sit thinking it would sound the same and maybe I would even sell it. But I figured what the heck let me give it a whirl.
This revised version of the UDA38Pro sounded better out the box than the burned-in original! Much more natural presentation. Curious, I decided to take a peek inside. There were definite changes made versus the internals posted on the website. Not just some one part PS fix. There are now multiple Wima caps (used as bypasses I'm assuming), some Elnas, and Nichicon FWs. And a chunky 1500uf on the power supply, amongst other things. None of which was used in the generic looking original board. Are these changes responsible for what I heard? Not sure. But it certainly sounds better.
Comparing the revised UDA38Pro with the Sabaj, the perception of depth and the enveloping soundstage is now more natural and kind of intoxicating. Another reviewer called it 'liquid' and I have to agree. Hard to describe but there is a 'flow' to the music, especially in the mids. Almost 'surround sound' the way it wraps around, which is a little weird with headphones on.
So I take it back. This dac sounds *wonderful* and I will be keeping it. Too bad I don't have access to my speakers so I can more accurately asses what I'm hearing. I'd love to know how this presentation translates to 2-channel. I will say this though, the Hifime UDA38Pro does not sound like a typical ESS Sabre dac. It actually reminds me a little more of the AKM (Schiit) chips - bold and broad strokes and 'velvet'. I would love to know a little bit of what Hifime did with the chip. Hopefully they'll provide more information. And they should be touting the new internal changes. This is a great dac, and my early skepticism has been reversed.
Next up: Topping D50. :icon_twisted:
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Uh oh, I need to revise my review! A while back Hifime notified that the first batch of dacs, which included mine, had an error in the spdif power supply build. They said they would send a replacement with a fix or I could diy myself. I told them to send a replacement. Good thing I did. I finally got the replacement a couple week ago and just let it sit thinking it would sound the same and maybe I would even sell it. But I figured what the heck let me give it a whirl.
This revised version of the UDA38Pro sounded better out the box than the burned-in original! Much more natural presentation. Curious, I decided to take a peek inside. There were definite changes made versus the internals posted on the website. Not just some one part PS fix. There are now multiple Wima caps (used as bypasses I'm assuming), some Elnas, and Nichicon FWs. And a chunky 1500uf on the power supply, amongst other things. None of which was used in the generic looking original board. Are these changes responsible for what I heard? Not sure. But it certainly sounds better.
Comparing the revised UDA38Pro with the Sabaj, the perception of depth and the enveloping soundstage is now more natural and kind of intoxicating. Another reviewer called it 'liquid' and I have to agree. Hard to describe but there is a 'flow' to the music, especially in the mids. Almost 'surround sound' the way it wraps around, which is a little weird with headphones on.
So I take it back. This dac sounds *wonderful* and I will be keeping it. Too bad I don't have access to my speakers so I can more accurately asses what I'm hearing. I'd love to know how this presentation translates to 2-channel. I will say this though, the Hifime UDA38Pro does not sound like a typical ESS Sabre dac. It actually reminds me a little more of the AKM (Schiit) chips - bold and broad strokes and 'velvet'. I would love to know a little bit of what Hifime did with the chip. Hopefully they'll provide more information. And they should be touting the new internal changes. This is a great dac, and my early skepticism has been reversed.
Next up: Topping D50. :icon_twisted:
i know ive been repeating myself lately but instead of topping give AGD R2R 11 a try. its marvelous. specially if you dont play to many DSD files. it is not budget good it is just excellent period.
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i know ive been repeating myself lately but instead of topping give AGD R2R 11 a try. its marvelous. specially if you dont play to many DSD files. it is not budget good it is just excellent period.
I don't know. Someone who owns both the Hifime and the AudioGD R2R said he preferred the Hifime. And I still have a Soekris R2R stored away, so would rather fire that one up again before buying a different one.
I have the Topping already. I will report on it later. It's a very different dac from the Hifime.
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I don't know. Someone who owns both the Hifime and the AudioGD R2R said he preferred the Hifime. And I still have a Soekris R2R stored away, so would rather fire that one up again before buying a different one.
I have the Topping already. I will report on it later. It's a very different dac from the Hifime.
do you just have the board or is it a complete build? is it thr 1021? im thinking of building one using thw LKS usb to IIS.
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do you just have the board or is it a complete build? is it thr 1021? im thinking of building one using thw LKS usb to IIS.
Yes, the 1021. My build got unwieldy with all kinds of modding and I put it away to work on some speakers. I'll get back to it eventually. You should definitely give it a go, especially since a lot of the kinks have been worked out in the newer versions. And now that board can be found in $$$$$ Dacs like the Lampizator (shhhh) and Lessloss. Make sure to get a low noise power supply.
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After poking around inside the Hifime I of course decided to mess around. Got in over my head, per usual. I removed what I thought to be the main voltage regulator feeding the usb receiver clocks and patched in a 3.3v Lifepo4 battery instead. The bad news: I somehow I cut off the 44khz signal. The good news: 96khz works and OMG, sounds so f*cking good. Why oh why don't these guys make their dacs with an option to use a battery direct to the clocks (I mean direct, as in no battery packs with noisy regulators of their own). It is so easy to do with the right layout and the sound quality jump is insane.
So now this dac sounds sublime. I'll let Windows handle 96k upsampling for everything. Worthwhile trade-off for what I'm hearing now.
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After poking around inside the Hifime I of course decided to mess around. Got in over my head, per usual. I removed what I thought to be the main voltage regulator feeding the usb receiver clocks and patched in a 3.3v Lifepo4 battery instead. The bad news: I somehow I cut off the 44khz signal. The good news: 96khz works and OMG, sounds so f*cking good. Why oh why don't these guys make their dacs with an option to use a battery direct to the clocks (I mean direct, as in no battery packs with noisy regulators of their own). It is so easy to do with the right layout and the sound quality jump is insane.
So now this dac sounds sublime. I'll let Windows handle 96k upsampling for everything. Worthwhile trade-off for what I'm hearing now.
Interesting. Did you use that vattery ps fin eBay that you linked before?
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Interesting. Did you use that vattery ps fin eBay that you linked before?
No, although that looks like a great start to match with an iDefender. I have a bunch of A123 Lifepo4s I used in other projects. Popped one in a little holder, added a switch and then wired to the board.
(https://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=179513)
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I see that this device has an optional power supply input. Does using a dedicated input change the noise characteristics or affect the sound signature? The website mentions only that external power supply will provide higher power and voltage outputs. It doesn't mention if using the external power supply switch over the device from USB powered mode.
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I see that this device has an optional power supply input. Does using a dedicated input change the noise characteristics or affect the sound signature? The website mentions only that external power supply will provide higher power and voltage outputs. It doesn't mention if using the external power supply switch over the device from USB powered mode.
I believe the external supply primarily impacts analog and DAC related clock and ICS. As stated on the website, USB still draws about 100mA even with external power. This is for the usb receiver and receiver related clocks and ICs. Not sure if there is true separation. I think there may be some blending when using external power.
But here's the catch: Regardless of USB only or external, there is a pretty noisy regulator that converts the power to +/- voltage for the opamps. There's no way to avoid it. And since the USB power gets used to some degree no matter what, you have to make sure it's clean. So my experience so far has been the DAC sounds best just using the USB power with an external 5v PS attached. Using both USB and external increased volume output, but did not sound as good since I could provide clean power to only the external and not the USB. Unless you have headphones that need a lot of power I would focus just on the USB for power.
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Would you be willing to provide a few more details of this device as it is a bit difficult to get more info on it right now?
- You mentioned that the sound signature is natural and almost liquid smooth. Does this achieve it without any loss in details? Also, is the sound neutral (no boosted/bloated bass/treble).
- Do you use some type of USB conditioner or power filter with this? If so, is there a significant impact without?
- Does using it with a power pack (common 5V USB charger type) significantly degrade audio quality? Will it be good enough to use on-the-go?
- Is the volume knob also the power switch?
- Do you have any experience with iFi Micro/Nano BL? If so, how does this compare to those devices (other than the power)?
PS: Isn't the regulator output 5V? Does using a 3.3V Lifepo4 affect the device differently?
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And to add to Bhargu's questions:
6. Can the volume control be used to control the RCA line outputs?
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Would you be willing to provide a few more details of this device as it is a bit difficult to get more info on it right now?
- You mentioned that the sound signature is natural and almost liquid smooth. Does this achieve it without any loss in details? Also, is the sound neutral (no boosted/bloated bass/treble).
I used the words natural and liquid and flow, not liquid smooth. That implies something different to me. It isn't smooth like, say, a Burr Brown dac. As for neutral, that means different things to different people. Do I feel any part of the response sounds sounds augmented? No.
- Do you use some type of USB conditioner or power filter with this? If so, is there a significant impact without?
Yes. This has been covered in the 'DAC for Peanuts' thread. I use iSilencer, iDefender, LT3045 power supply. All ESS dacs are sensitive to power supply from my experience.
- Does using it with a power pack (common 5V USB charger type) significantly degrade audio quality? Will it be good enough to use on-the-go?
I don't have a power pack. I don't know. This isn't a very portable dac IMO.
- Is the volume knob also the power switch?
No.
- Do you have any experience with iFi Micro/Nano BL? If so, how does this compare to those devices (other than the power)?
Yes I have had iFi Dacs. ESS Sabre vs. Burr Brown. Burr Brown is truly 'smooth'. Very different presentation. If you like Burr Brown get the iFi.
PS: Isn't the regulator output 5V? Does using a 3.3V Lifepo4 affect the device differently?
Which regulator. There are a bunch.
6. Can the volume control be used to control the RCA line outputs?
Yes. The volume uses the ESS internal digital volume control, so it effects both analog outputs.
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Do I feel any part of the response sounds augmented? No.
By neutral, I just mean no emphasis in any regions of the FR graph. So, basically what you said here. I can expect the typical details of a Sabre, without the glare/harshness, right? At least that's what I have been hearing about the 9038 based DACs till now.
Yes. This has been covered in the 'DAC for Peanuts' thread. I use iSilencer, iDefender, LT3045 power supply. All ESS dacs are sensitive to power supply from my experience.
Sorry, I didn't see that. What do you think of the iPurifier series of PS from iFi? I have been thinking of getting iSilencer or something similar. I had tested before for ground-loop issue, but haven't noticed it till now. Will I still need something like iDefender, in case of something which is not really audible, but still there? I believe iDefender also lets you switch out the USB power channel with separate cleaner power supply, right?
Which regulator. There are a bunch.
I was talking about the Tesla regulator (big black one) that I thought you had removed in the image that you attached.
If you like Burr Brown get the iFi.
The problem is, I have not listened to Burr-Brown DACs. I have used ES and AK based ones, but never the BB ones.
Thanks for your help with this. I was thinking of getting an iFi Nano BL (mostly because of the portability, being a single USB, battery operated with built-in iPurifier) when I came across this. I had a Hifime 9018 sabre DAC before (used it for my mobile) and this seemed interesting, the cheapest 9038Pro DAC. I have been interested in 9038 as it apparently reduces the typical brightness of Sabre chips.
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Regardless of USB only or external, there is a pretty noisy regulator that converts the power to +/- voltage for the opamps. There's no way to avoid it.
Do you remember which regulators were used in the unit, before you changed them?
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Do you remember which regulators were used in the unit, before you changed them?
The opamps are powered by an LT1054. The rest are generic 3.3v and 1.2v LDOs. I did not change them. I avoided them completely by either removing them or by removing the components after them so I could access the pads for my external power supply. You mentioned the Tesla in the Hifime promotional photo, but that was not used in the final design. My dac looks nothing like that internal photo. Hifime made a lot of changes, even after the first batch went out in February.
I have modded the hell out of it and am all done now.
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The opamps are powered by an LT1054. The rest are generic 3.3v and 1.2v LDOs. I did not change them. I avoided them completely by either removing them or by removing the components after them so I could access the pads for my external power supply. You mentioned the Tesla in the Hifime promotional photo, but that was not used in the final design. My dac looks nothing like that internal photo. Hifime made a lot of changes, even after the first batch went out in February.
I have modded the hell out of it and am all done now.
Are the modded results significantly better than the stock experience? Also, do you use this as one of your daily drivers? I am considering this vs Topping D50, and am finding it hard to decide.
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Are the modded results significantly better than the stock experience? Also, do you use this as one of your daily drivers? I am considering this vs Topping D50, and am finding it hard to decide.
Yes, significantly better. But I like modding and learning along the way. If that's not for you then get the D50. I know UDA38Pro feedback is hard to find. I am the only person talking about it in length. Not sure why. Hifime doesn't seem interested in promoting their product or sharing more information. I have a feeling the dac does not 'measure' well even though it sounds excellent in stock form.
Tough decision, I know. Whichever choice will be impressive.
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In real life how much of a difference does the 9038 pro make? I am on 9018 on my NuPrime gear and have a SABABJ DA3 for my hifiman .... I dont perceive much of a difference - or maybe its my ears.
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I would like to know if the volume control has become better. For example how would it compare with a good DSP-ed volume control. Are the new ESS DACs' volume control as good as the software ones like Roon https://community.roonlabs.com/t/roons-64-bit-floating-point-volume-leveling/25547/2
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In real life how much of a difference does the 9038 pro make? I am on 9018 on my NuPrime gear and have a SABABJ DA3 for my hifiman .... I dont perceive much of a difference - or maybe its my ears.
That's not a question I can answer for you. You will just have to listen to one. Engineering-wise the 9038 is a *significant* step up. These new chips are complicated with many many options for implementation. How good a 9028/38 based dac sounds will depend on what options were selected and how everything is designed around it. The more one researches these chips, the more surprises you find. Like an easter egg hunt. Which is why it's taking some of these companies a longer amount of time to design new products around them (that optimize everything). And since there is a NDA for these chips, there's only a certain amount of info that can be shared. Here is a good primer on the new chips courtesy of Benchmark:
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/dac3-introducing-the-new-es9028pro-converter (https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/dac3-introducing-the-new-es9028pro-converter)
The performance and complexity of the support circuitry outside of the ES9028PRO can be configured to match a manufacturer's budget and space constraints. When Benchmark designed the DAC2 we started by using all of the ESS-recommended performance options and then we added our own set of enhancements. This same strategy is carried forward to the DAC3. Our performance-driven strategy greatly increases the number of support components, but these components add important performance improvements. For this reason, it is important to understand that there can be a wide variation in the performance of an ES9028PRO converter solution. The overall performance will be determined by the manufacturer's budget, goals, and skills.
As for the volume question, you've asked this before and I'm not sure what you're looking for beyond what was already said. The ESS volume control is integrated *into* the chip. You can't beat the volume processing of the chip itself in terms of signal/bit integrity. Plus for the 9028 and 9038 there are additional factors that play into the quality of the analog volume output. There are probably additional improvements but you'd need to sign an NDA and get the datasheet. If you really want nitty gritty answers I'd suggest asking the guys at Twisted Pear. They are the only diy folks working with these chips and talking about them.
Now whether or not you will hear a difference, only you can say.
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Yes, significantly better. But I like modding and learning along the way. If that's not for you then get the D50. I know UDA38Pro feedback is hard to find. I am the only person talking about it in length. Not sure why. Hifime doesn't seem interested in promoting their product or sharing more information. I have a feeling the dac does not 'measure' well even though it sounds excellent in stock form.
Tough decision, I know. Whichever choice will be impressive.
I am not sure about the quality of LT1054 (noise should be higher than a typical LDO), but OPA1622 has a nominal PSRR of about -140dB. Any half-way decent regulator should have been good enough, right? But from what I heard, ESS has been recommending ES9311Q for the left and right channel voltage rails for 9038Pro. It is supposed to have a noise characteristic of 1μVrms. I don't know if HiFime has used a regulator of similar performance, but I don't think they would at this price range.
The only measurements that I have seen of a HiFime product was of their 9018 DAC, which was not flattering. But that could have easily been due to USB noise, which can be rectified at user-end. Though, exotic sounding DACs generally don't seem to measure well.
I haven't done any DIY projects in more than a decade, but if I get this, I was planning to move this device to a new housing so that I can include the regulators and USB isolator inside the housing itself (maybe also a few batteries with charging and protection circuits). I was thinking of a housing form factor similar to iFi micro series.
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This is another DAC that I'm interested in but it's missing some feature or other. In this case it's in not having coaxial input.
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Yes, significantly better. But I like modding and learning along the way. If that's not for you then get the D50. I know UDA38Pro feedback is hard to find. I am the only person talking about it in length. Not sure why. Hifime doesn't seem interested in promoting their product or sharing more information. I have a feeling the dac does not 'measure' well even though it sounds excellent in stock form.
Tough decision, I know. Whichever choice will be impressive.
Unfortunately, unless Amir over at ASR has a bad unit, it definitely doesn't measure well for being neutral.
But hey, people might not want a neutral, reference DAC to begin with.
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Unfortunately, unless Amir over at ASR has a bad unit, it definitely doesn't measure well for being neutral.
But hey, people might not want a neutral, reference DAC to begin with.
That's a false premise. Since Amir himself can't subjectively differentiate most of the DACs he measures, then there is no basis to say whether this or anything he measures sounds 'neutral'. You just have a cult of measurement junkies ranking components as being awesome or not based on one person's assessment - which, hey, whatever floats your boat; but if he himself can't actually hear a difference then what's the point? In fact my takeaway from his work is that distortion isn't a big deal, since he doesn't seem to notice it even when it's pretty bad. Same with the other metrics. IOW, anyone who isn't invested in the tribal mindset over there would have to come to the conclusion that an $80 DAC will do as well as a $1K DAC unless defective or has features you want. Not that I believe that, but that's the logical outcome of his approach. I'll stop there and won't say any more on the subject.
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Unfortunately, unless Amir over at ASR has a bad unit, it definitely doesn't measure well for being neutral.
But hey, people might not want a neutral, reference DAC to begin with.
I’m beginning to think Amir works for Topping. The company has QC issues galore and has swapped out parts with those of unknown quality. He also rants constantly about his measurements that haven’t found to correlate with sound quality make one device better than another which makes no logical sense. He also has something against Schiit, in particular.
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I’m beginning to think Amir works for Topping. The company has QC issues galore and has swapped out parts with those of unknown quality. He also rants constantly about his measurements that haven’t found to correlate with sound quality make one device better than another which makes no logical sense. He also has something against Schiit, in particular.
Agreed, and he has been banned from other forums for his outright trolling.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds most everything at audiosciencereview absurd, maybe even bordering on cult-like.
Seriously, who listens to music with an oscilloscope? Your ears are not a distortion analyzer, and music is not a perfect sine wave from a function generator. Who gives a rat's ass about the difference between a noise floor at -110dB vs -130dB?
None of the criteria he uses to rank DACs really matter IMO. I never see any discussion on ASR of how DACs actually sound when listening to music.
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I think it's a good source of measurements if that's all you take away from it. I don't read it as a final authority, but I do like his comparisons. And the replies on the blog occasionally fill in some of the subjective areas. I guess there are cult followers there, I just don't notice them.