Anybody using a sand-filled turntable base?

orthobiz · « **on:** 13 Apr 2011, 05:19 pm »

I'm thinking about a Big Rock (Bright Star) base to go under my VPI HW19. Harry at VPI used to recommend them. You fill it with sand.

Any thoughts or experience?

Paul

woodsyi · « **Reply #1 on:** 13 Apr 2011, 05:40 pm »

I do.

Honestly, I don't hear any difference but that's because my rack already has vibration damping on each shelf. I originally got them for tube happy phono preamp and I will eventually put them back in that use. I just have to rearrange a lot of components and I am too lazy at the moment. The sand based platforms can can only help -- definitely not hurt. DIY TNT Sandblaster has been around for awhile.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #2 on:** 13 Apr 2011, 05:50 pm »

orthobiz/Paul,

I made a home-brewed sand base a while back. Maybe I didn't built it right or something of the sort...but, once I heard the profound effect of a 3.5" maple block under my table(s), that's all I've used since.

I'm not certain anyone knows the exact property that maple has that makes it such a good sub-base for turntables, but I've not heard anything remotely as good myself. Frankly, up until using maple I never would've thought a choice of sub-base mattered that much. After you try a thick plank of maple under your deck, you'll likely agree.

Not terribly costly either - I bought mine from Dawns Depot on ebay (she is also on Audiogon now as many audiophiles found her out and directed her there). This one: http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHIGAN-MAPLE-BLOCK-CUTTING-BOARD-BUTCHER-BLOCK-A-/380326752479?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588d3db0df

Heck, maybe she's even nearby and you can pick it up. If not, it wouldn't take but a day for you to get it within Michigan.

My highest endorsement - FAR better than any comparable upgrade of a cartridge or a new deck for ~$100.

John

Wayner · « **Reply #3 on:** 13 Apr 2011, 08:55 pm »

I think Bill Berndt made a dandy. Maybe he will chime in on this one. He made the style that is called a "sandbox".

Wayner

orthobiz · « **Reply #4 on:** 13 Apr 2011, 11:31 pm »

Woodsyi, that is one serious setup! I like the idea of not making it worse with sand. John, I think my rAck is maple, but I think it might be too flexy. I may eventually wind up trying sand AND maple, know me and my tinkering desires!

Paul

eclein · « **Reply #5 on:** 13 Apr 2011, 11:38 pm »

Woodsyi- Thats a very cool looking rig/s you got there!!!!

orthobiz · « **Reply #6 on:** 13 Apr 2011, 11:50 pm »

Got a good price on the base made specifically for the VPI with a SAMA. Will report back in the future.

Paul

SET Man · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 12:19 am »

Quote from: TheChairGuy on 13 Apr 2011, 05:50 pm

orthobiz/Paul,

I made a home-brewed sand base a while back. Maybe I didn't built it right or something of the sort...but, once I heard the profound effect of a 3.5" maple block under my table(s), that's all I've used since.

I'm not certain anyone knows the exact property that maple has that makes it such a good sub-base for turntables, but I've not heard anything remotely as good myself. Frankly, up until using maple I never would've thought a choice of sub-base mattered that much. After you try a thick plank of maple under your deck, you'll likely agree.

Not terribly costly either - I bought mine from Dawns Depot on ebay (she is also on Audiogon now as many audiophiles found her out and directed her there). This one: http://cgi.ebay.com/MICHIGAN-MAPLE-BLOCK-CUTTING-BOARD-BUTCHER-BLOCK-A-/380326752479?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item588d3db0df

Heck, maybe she's even nearby and you can pick it up. If not, it wouldn't take but a day for you to get it within Michigan.

My highest endorsement - FAR better than any comparable upgrade of a cartridge or a new deck for ~$100.

John

Hey!

I've built a sandbox before, but it was for a tube amp that was sat directly on the floor. And honestly if my memory served me right I didn't think I heard any thing different

So, since than I've never use sandbox again in my system. Well, I'm not sure about with TT.

So, John. What kind of change the maple cutting board dose to your TT? Im interested to know.

BTW.... Woodsy, nice set up there. With two TTs.

Take care,
Buddy

pumpkinman · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 12:23 am »

Paul here's my sandbox made for me by a good friend. It's made out of MDF and covered with african Rosewood veneer

etcarroll · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 01:18 am »

Looks like the Beatles approve the veneer.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 02:33 am »

Quote from: SET Man on 14 Apr 2011, 12:19 am

So, John. What kind of change the maple cutting board dose to your TT? Im interested to know.

Buddy,

Impossible to describe except that with the maple block underneath, my deck(s) sound more right than anything else I've tried under them. You've been around long enough to read of my trials and see many of my various 'experiments' (ie, monstrosities

) I've tinkered with in vinyl

It's just that instant where everything sounds right...deck after deck now.

Again, impossible to describe...but, instantly recognizable to me. I stopped messing around with bases soon after fitting this 3.5" maple base under that first deck.

A thick maple block garners an unqualified rave by me in use under TT's. I've heard some talk about end grain, butcher block, air dried or whatnot being better...that's all nuanced stuff I or you probably won't hear...but just the move to a thick piece of maple is quite illuminating

$100 at Dawn's Depot is a great way to go. I've seen the rough equivalent John Boo's maple blocks go for the same or more in stores...and I think they are a little smaller and only 3" thick for that kind of money.

John

dmatt · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 02:59 am »

Please don't think me an idiot or being facetious.

What about a thick maple block in a sand box

? It looks like the turntable sits on something that sits in the sand, why can't it be 3.5" of maple?

I have been thinking about this approach for my monoblocks (since I don't have a turntable yet). They currently sit on the floor on homemade 2.5" thick maple stands with spikes.

Just thinking out of the (sand) box.

DM

JCarney · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 04:13 am »

I agree with John about the maple, great for under your rig. I got this from a guy who went a step further, and sandwiched aluminum in between.
good stuff.

Top of my shelf.

From the side.

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 04:35 am »

Quote from: dmatt on 14 Apr 2011, 02:59 am

Please don't think me an idiot or being facetious.

What about a thick maple block in a sand box ? It looks like the turntable sits on something that sits in the sand, why can't it be 3.5" of maple?

I have been thinking about this approach for my monoblocks (since I don't have a turntable yet). They currently sit on the floor on homemade 2.5" thick maple stands with spikes.

Just thinking out of the (sand) box.

DM

Well, go for it - and report back

However, in general, base issues and benefits/drawbacks are best heard with electro-mechanical devices like a turntable.

The type of base used under electronic products can influence sonics for certain...but nearly nearly to the extent of using them under turntables. That eeny-weeny needle riding microns down in a plastic disc, attached to a 9-12" (normally) pivoted wand - with a disc powered by a motor generally located inside the box housing the deck itself - BEGS for hi quality isolation bases beyond the call of normal electronics.

The only other device in the sonic chain that benefits from such attention to isolation is your speakers...another (perhaps, THE other) electromechanical device.

Now then, you'll just have to get with it and get a turntable to find out now, won't ya'?

(as the oft conniving and manipulative Facilitator of the Vinyl Circle circles his new prey

)

Ciao, John

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #14 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 05:41 am »

I don't think BrightStar uses MDF for their box or plinth because they (he?) don't like the way it sounds with the sand. Please correct me if I'm wrong because I'm going off of memory.

I do know that the plinth in a BrightStar (the top part that floats in the sandbox) is very thin and it couples the component to the sand very well. This is what really dissipates the vibrations into the sand. A thick MDF or maple plinth probably wouldn't work the same. (Again, I'm open for correction on this subject because it's a little over my head.)

I also know that these boxes work very well for isolating speakers if you are living on a suspended floor. That's what I used under my speakers until last year when I got speakers with purpose built, sand filled stands.

Back to the thread,,, I have been looking at improving "what's under my table" too and so I am interested in what everyone else is using. The maple block that John uses looks very interesting. Can it be painted without messing up its effectiveness?

Has anyone ever considered a PrimAcoustic Recoil Stabilizer? They are meant for studio monitors but they look like a more elegant solution than a sandbox.

http://www.primacoustic.com/recoil.htm

TheChairGuy · « **Reply #15 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 12:40 pm »

You can paint any untreated wood....the blocks I've bought from Dawn's Depot are simply untreated, end grain maple. I slather it with copious amounts of olive oil when I get them and slather them so more every couple years to keep them moist.

Preferable (to me) to outright painting them would staining them a mahogany color. If you do two or three passes, you'll get a pretty obvious black board, yet with the natural, textured training in tact.

I don't think painting or staining would change he performance.

Btw, i understand that Harry Weisfeld of VPI now tells folks to use a think hunk of maple under VPI's as standard....in case I lack enough audiophool credo to believe on the subject

It's a remarkably important betterment for TT sonics...a simple maple board beats anything else tried. Do note I have not tried any other wood than yucky mdf...so I don't know if birch or bamboo, to name two other popular materials used for cutting boards, are as capable as maple.

I only know that maple proved itself so capable that I stopped looking for sub-base products after that

.

John

chester_audio · « **Reply #16 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 12:55 pm »

I recognize that 'table, JCarney.

Many of us Galibier owners have used sandboxes to great effect under our 'tables. The sandbox is a cheap, effective means to allow any energy in the base to sync into the sand and be dissipated.

So, in our case we want the shelf to help transfer those vibrations to the sand. Many use 1/4" or 3/8" thick aluminum and fix large heat sinks to the underside and embed into the sand. It has been reported that a 3/4" mdf shelf used in the same manner as as the aluminum gets close to the aluminum. I know what people think about mdf, but remember we're using it here in contact with a very decent damping medium.

Still others use a maple shelf. No matter what you use as a shelf the idea is to get the vibrations into the sand so a thick piece may not work as well in a sandbox. I have not been able to get maple to work for me, and I've tried it many ways. But it is a synergy thing so unless one buys a commercial solution be prepared to experiment.

I ended up using granite, but I don't recommend it. This is polished, cabinet grade stuff so it looks beautiful but in the end I had to put Stillpoints between the base of my 'table and the granite. Which kind of defeats the purpose of the sandbox.

Did I mention experimenting?

BTW, Stillpoints are very effective if your 'table is of sufficient mass. They can be an alternative to a sandbox.

putz · « **Reply #17 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 02:08 pm »

My VPI sits on a Target Wall Mount with a 3/4" piece of MDF between the table and the Target. I was worried about adding a lot more weight to the Mount which is why I did not initially go with the Maple block. Target Mount is attached to the wall studs btw.

I do see that there is a 1 3/4" Maple block available that is half the weight of the 3 1/2" one. Does it make sense to pick that up and toss the MDF?

putz · « **Reply #18 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 02:13 pm »

Quote from: pumpkinman on 14 Apr 2011, 12:23 am

Paul here's my sandbox made for me by a good friend. It's made out of MDF and covered with african Rosewood veneer

Interesting how Paul's face is missing in the picture. You trying to start another Paul is Dead rumor?

BaMorin · « **Reply #19 on:** 14 Apr 2011, 02:18 pm »

MDF, by nature of its construction does not transfer energy well. It reflects energy. It reflects energy in an unpredictable manner. Maple, cedar, spruce, mahogany, rosewoods (and anything in that family) are all very predictable. How many violins, cellos, guitars etc are made from MDF or similar material? easy answer, none.