[TheChairGuy]

Another topic was commandeered by Wayner (in a good way as there was lots of good impressions he had as he received his new Technics SL-1200 about the same time as I did).  But, rather than add my impressions on this tandem to that wandering  post - I thought I'd start a new one here.

About halfway down p. 10 of the Technics...Bastardization topic I introduce the Origin Live arm into the mix....but never posted my impressions afterwards: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=48506.90

FINALLY - I think I finally have this rig set up right now.

It's NEVER a good thing to have a new deck and a new tonearm together with one who is accustomed to neither. Tho I'm far from a vinyl newbie....I AM something of a newbie to aftermarket arms and such. Most of my decks in the past were those with captive arms and fairly straightforward to set up.

The Origin Live Illustrious MK. III, with VTA, requires skill and patience beyond which I needed before.

Tonearm lifter, tonearm lifter angle, counterweight, angle of thin arm for holding side bias weight and even the platform itself (relative to the yoke of the tonearm) are all set with (different size) metric allen keys.

Beyond that you still have the less-than-easy VTA adjustment.....you need to loosen the nuts underneath the table each time you make an adjustment. The slick VTA adjustment on the stock Technics SL-1200 is a fantastic aid in itself.

Furthering progress today was understanding of stylus overhang. The OL and Rega arms share the same geometry at 17mm. Not knowing this (  until I read the manual tonite) I had it set at 15mm. Boy, that change alone paid off rich dividends...a much smoother and fluid presentation was the result.

I'm playing A Charlie Brown Christmas...Vince Guaraldi's wonderful work that I play any time of the year. Brilliant, just brilliant, it sounds now.

All in all, my couple moving coils sound better in this (medium mass) arm than the bevy of moving magnets/irons I have....but they fail to sound as utterly natural and inviting as the Grado Green/shibata in the vertical and horizontal damped (captive) tonearm of my $100.00 JVC QL-F6

I'm getting very high-quality music from the $3000+ Technics/Origin Live combo.....but I got more realistic music from my $100.00 machine with an even cheaper cartridge. Instruments sound more realistic with the JVC/Grado. It may only be the differences in cartridges the cause...but the Grado sounds less-than-decent on the Origin Live - it's hard to pin that down definitively as the cause.

I think, as I've long suspected, Grado's need damped arms and love extended line tips....it's then that you really hear how wonderful they are. Without one or the other - they can sound flubby, inexact, plagued with inner groove distortion, barely-adequate tracking and less than linear sounding.

That's all - for now   John

[GBB]

All in all, my couple moving coils sound better in this (medium mass) arm than the bevy of moving magnets/irons I have....but they fail to sound . . . utterly natural and inviting 

John,
First off, congratulations on the nice new arm and your progress getting it set up.  I know from personal experience that tweaking a turntable can be a long and arduous task.  I'm still a firm believer that MC cartridges ultimately give better sound but it takes a pretty big effort to get them to reach their potential.

Can you remind us what you're using in the way of a phono stage for your MC cartridges compared to your MM cartridges?  I'm wondering if that might be limiting the sound you're getting from your MCs.  As I have mentioned in other threads, I've settled on step up transformers as giving the most natural sound out of my MC cartridges.  Have you tried any?  Perhaps we should have a Northern California gathering at your place one of these days to play with different phono stages and transformers.

---Gary

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Gary!

My moving coils (Ortofon X5-MC, Denon DL-160vdH and dreadful Sumiko Blue Point/vdH) are all hi-output MC's so they play thru the 50K inputs (the preamp is old, that was the de facto 'standard' before everyome came to agreement at 57K in 1979 or so).

The tuner/preamp is a Mitsubishi DA-C20....dual mono and regulated supplies to each channel...MM(50K load) and MC (10 ohm load).  Extremely quiet and dynamic at both settings.

So, the MC's are clearly not correctly terminated into the right load....they would best be loaded at about 1K or so.  That fact could absolutely be skewing my opinion of them 

The Grado's are best terminated at about 10K and the other hi-output MM's are 47K or so.  I have a lo-output Pickering XLZ-7500s here, too, but it is terribly suited to the extremely low 10 ohm MC input - the treble sounds lopped off as a result. 

I like the idea integrated preamps/phono stages and higher voltages for cartridges...less for meager voltages to pass thru on their way to the speakers. Tho, I readily admit, I haven't heard enough outboard phono stages and transformers to know definitively.

I'm in Tiburon now, but moving within 60 days (the house has termites and the landlord is dead set on deadly fumigation...instead of using innocuous and effective Orange Oil and Borates.  So, we're leaveing rather than subject ourselves to it). 

But, at some point, I would like to host a gathering when I land in new digs 

John

[TheChairGuy]

Allright, I got fed up this morning and changed things around. The Denon DL-160vdH, tho sounding far better than it ever did in the JVC, just was very fake sounding. It was as if an artificial 'surround' button was initiated and all the instruments, tho taut sounding and eerily quiet of background, it just sounded like an imitation of music.

So, back on when the Grado Green/Shibata.

WARNING: Stupid newbie mistake in progress - again!

THIS time I made sure I had exactly 17mm overhang right. That the cart was aligned straight on. That the azimuth was correct and that the tracking force was somewhere between 1.55 and 1.60 (where Grado's need be).

I put the thin layer of plast-i-clay between headshell and cartridge body, affixed the Longhorn to the front with quakehold and played.

Tho better than my efforts previously on the Technics/Origin Live...it STILL wasn't up to the standards of the JVC Sad So, I sat back , listened to the tunes and thought about the why's of the situation. Seemingly I had done everything the same as with the JVC, yet the results were discouraging 

Quite a bummer to have slighty worse presentation in a 30x more expensive set-up. Uhhh-huh.

The JVC arm has no height adjustments. Between the two mats on it's platter and Plast-i-Clay layer on top of the cartridge body, I had made the cartridge quite noticeably tail down in VTA. Could this be it....my tail was clearly a bit up with the Grado now 

To be honest, I've messed with VTA before......it's been a secondary consideration for playback after many other geometries that needed to be taken care of first. Levelling a deck, especially belt drive/suspended, is a helluva' lot more important than VTA. Overhang, tracking force, feedback isolation - all more important than VTA I've found.

The differences, with MC/MM or other MI's in nibbling with VTA have been fairly minimal. It's never made a poor cartridge sound great and a good cartridge sound any better than slightly better than before.

The Grado's must be the most obscenely wretched, tweeky, pain-in-the-ass cartridges in vinylphooldom as playing with VTA just now has created a MAJOR difference. Major - HUGE - sonic difference. The first time with any cartridge I've ever noted this.

I'm not even sure I've dialed it in just right yet - by memory the VTA was even more tail down with the JVC arm, but I'm on the right trail now as bass is astounding, the music sounds full, things are in proportion now. There's still a nip of too much 'flub' in the music - whether this is ameliorated with further tail down VTA or that the Grado needs fluid damped arm, is the stuff for future findings.

Soundstage width and depth are now beyond my previous comprehension of them. Wide and deep (slightly taller only), but what a pleasant change...as if the physical constraints of the speakers have been lifted fore and aft and side to side.

BOOM - shakalaka - Mannheim Steamroller's 'Fresh Aire' is dynamic, fluid and sounds pretty much like it should now 

John

[Wayner]

Perhaps I am too fussy with VTA, but with the Technics, it's unlock and rotate. I think the process of picking a VTA point should be slowed down so you can get used to where you are at. It also helps to play your favorite ablums, just to make the comparison from memory...is the current VTA position better or worse than it was before.

VTA away Johhy The Cart Guy.

Wayner

[GBB]

My moving coils (Ortofon X5-MC, Denon DL-160vdH and dreadful Sumiko Blue Point/vdH) are all hi-output MC's so they play thru the 50K inputs (the preamp is old, that was the de facto 'standard' before everyome came to agreement at 57K in 1979 or so).

The Grado's are best terminated at about 10K and the other hi-output MM's are 47K or so. 

Heh John,
I think you're on the right track with regard to needing to optimize loading for the MC cartridges.  I used to have a Sumiko Blue Point and when I first used it I found it to be pretty awful.  I was screechy and not very musical.  But then I got a good tonearm and when I loaded it with closer to 1K (if memory serves) then it actually became quite listenable.  You should jury rig something to let you experiment with this.  The easiest thing is just to get a Y-cable to turn your phono inputs into two inputs per channel.  Then make a few RCA plugs with different resistors and use that to experiment with optimal loading.

Regarding moving - I don't envy you at all.  I moved from NY out here about 1 year ago and I've still got the occasional item that I can't find because it's probably in a box in the garage.  Moving is a pain. 
The stereo is set up again but I'm not entirely happy with the sound yet.  Once I get things cooking then I'm game for hosting a Nor Cal event down here as well.  Hope we get the chance to meet up one of these days.

---Gary

[richidoo]

From your previous explanation to me John, I thought I understood that if you swap in OL arm on SL1200, you will lose the VTA adjustment from the stock arm. Even base plate needs a changin. Are you able to still adjust VTA with SL1200 threaded wheel if swap in Rega type arm?
Thanks
Rich

[TheChairGuy]

richidoo
The stock Technics tonearm was a goner when I bought this (used) deck.....so the stock arm was removed (a cinch) and an Origin Live armboard was purchased to mount a Rega (and clone) arms.  I own a modded Rega RB250 arm....but it has a dropped counterweight and that drop, in combination with the recessed depression of the OL armboard, meant the rear of the arm was banging into the table during play (it would not work, of course, this way).

So, in a fit of audiophooldom a couple weeks ago, I saw a lightly used Origin Live Illustrious III tonearm for sale (introduced only a year ago to the world) and bought it.  I've never seen one before or since (the latest version of the Illustrious, that is)

That's the arm I'm using on the Technics now.  It has, standard with the arm, a VTA adjustment (not on-the-fly like the stock Technics arm - it requires one to stop, loosen the lock nut underneath and re-set the VTA).

However, I rigged something today so that I no longer have to unscrew the locking nut each time.  I made a homebrew version of the VTAF, where the tonearm floats on the armboard and VTA adjustment is far easier to achieve with little interruption of play.

GBB/Gary
I moved here 5 years ago, from DC (but originally from Syosset, NY).  I think up until a year ago we were still digging out an occasional something from the move 

[TheChairGuy]

A pic of my homebrew semi-VTAF...where the tonearm stud is floating freely in the armboard hole...and the tonearm assembly is held firmly to the deck plinth by a wad of Quakehold. Anytime I want to re-set VTA, I simply lift the tonearm assembly up and re-adhere the Quakehold to the deck plinth.

The sticky Quakehold wad is circled.

It's a lot easier than unscrewing the locking nut each time and re-adjusting it....not quite as easy as Pete Riggle's VTAF, however:


 

[TheChairGuy]

DOH 



Holee cow.  I bought this arm used from a well versed vinylphool.  I got a good deal on it relative to it's rediculous list price (I think so, at least).

The arm looked new - not a nick on it.  Even tho the Mk. III version is only 6 months old from Origin Live, I assumed it was broken in.

Now, I don't think so.  The soundstage is waaaaaay wide and deep now and everything is much more fluid than first listen.  The bass it tight and impactful now, too, and the resolution is better bottom to top (the treble was not very good previously).

Treble is where I have difficulty with new interconnects upon break-in period...that shoulda' been my clue.

I really don't think it's my ears acclimating to it at all...I think the sucker is just breaking in now.  OL warns 2 weeks are needed - maybe it's just hitting that or maybe it needs more and it's just reaching it.  Truly, getting all the geometries right was a good thing.....but it didn't sound anything like this a couple days ago when I dialed in overhang and VTA, finally, correctly.

Sheesh is it good. I had earlier said the difference  between a modded Rega 250 and this arm doesn't seem to merit the $2K difference......I'm going to have to reserve further judgement about that for a while longer.  Sorry folks - I just never considered that the arm hadn't been broken in 

It's just friggin' crazy delicious sounding now.....it so trounces any digital rig I've heard it's not at all close now (it has been merely a bit better than my hopped up digital rig the past two weeks or so)   

John

[GregC]

Congratulations on the Illustrious Mk 3 arm.  I have a Mk 2 and it is an awesome sounding arm  Fremer had the Mk 2 arm with an OL Aurora (Gold?) table and said it sounded better than many $20k rigs he had heard.  I have mine mated with an Origin Live Resolution table and it is pure sonic heaven.  The arm does take some time to sound its best, with the bass weight and micro-dynamics improving in the final stages.

[TheChairGuy]

Hey Greg - thanks for chiming in.

Yeah, bass weight now in ample evidence (maybe still has some to go - that would be great)...something that really was lacking before.  I couldn't for the life of me understand why a good many of those reviews on OL arms glowed on about it's bass weight.

Damn, I'm listening to Arthur Rubinstein playing Beethoven and I cannot believe how exact each brush of the hand on the piano is rendered.  It's not even been cleaned on the RCM...it was a $0.50 bargain bin find.  Truly, gr8 stuff!

I was perplexed...now not so 

[GregC]

Hi John,

Enjoy spinning some tunes and let us know how the arm sounds after it finishes the break-in stage.  The mk 2 is supposed to be a significant improvement over the mk 1 and the mk 3 is better still.  The arm does benefit from careful setup, so even a small adjustment will produce an audible difference.  Have fun, it only gets better... 

Greg

[TheChairGuy]

I thought I'd resuscitate this topic and update it a bit...

As I'm moving from here by March 31, I'm in the midst of packing. As long as I'm packing the TT's up, I may as well try 'em out.

The DUAL 1229 idler is still out of commission...it awaits a cartridge carrier coming from British Columbia, Canada won on ebay over 10 days ago. Slow-poke seller Twisted Evil

The VPI HW-19 Mk. III/AQ PT-6/Grado Gold with shibata stylus was tried and was not a hit for me. Due to the less-then-perfect speed issue of un-regulated belt drive, it seems to due better with inherently better damped moving coils. My Denon DL-160vdH sounded swell a couple months ago...but not quite real (the issue I have with every MC I've ever heard). I think any belt drive needs tightly regulated speed control to approximate the sonics of most direct drivers I've heard.

Anyhow, that's $700 to $1000 more for that and it's too pricey for me at this time.

I took the trusty JVC QL-F6 out. I shoed the Grado Gold/shibata to it and gave it a whirl. What an impressive performer for $100 (ebay bought) and 9 lbs of plast-i-clay inside. The treble is near perfect - angelic almost on good recordings. Simply crystalline it is with equally impressive  midrange performance.

Compared to the 20x more expensive Technics SL-1200/Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III it has lighter weight bass, a slightly compressed soundstage width and depth (tho neither have the width and height of the VPI), but tonality that is essentially more enjoyable than the Technics/OL combo. Frankly, it's impressive and in a small room and passably decent electronics as I have I think it's as good as it gets with the Grado.

The bass, while not as prodigious, it tighter and quite enjoyable all the same.

I think the key is the fluid damped tonearm....making it an ideal platform for the Grado's. The underdamped, powerful Grado's seem to require fluid damping to thrive. The oversized 13" platter, heavier than the Technics and what may well be a higher quality main bearing (it spins 2x as long as the Technics with a good push) may be further reasons for it's excellence.

The JVC is a keeper - for the money I paid it's an insane bargain to me 

[woodsyi]

I just picked up an Encounter MK2 in a package deal.  I guess it will take some time to dial it in?   I guess it's a good thing the Van Halen concert I was going to this weekend got postponed.   

[TheChairGuy]

I just picked up an Encounter MK2 in a package deal.  I guess it will take some time to dial it in?   I guess it's a good thing the Van Halen concert I was going to this weekend got postponed.   

woodsyi,

Yeah, some 300 hours probably required for break-in (dialectric, wiring or your ears - whatever  )

I'm keeping the arm.....but honestly, I think that the quality of performance I am getting from the JVC is more enjoyable overall, so I may sell the Technics SL-1200, ultimately.

John

[ohenry]

...I'm keeping the arm.....but honestly, I think that the quality of performance I am getting from the JVC is more enjoyable overall, so I may sell the Technics SL-1200, ultimately.

John

John, the obvious question:  Can you put the killer arm on the JVC? aa

[Wayner]

John,

I can't believe what I'm hearing from you...sell the Technics? how are you going to get Christmas cards from lcrim? Perhaps the Origin arm isn't up to the task or you haven't stepped on the right duck to get the thing to squawk the way you want to. I felt that way early on with my technics, but I kept on. Genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration, buddy. Get back on the horse and rethink your tweaks. I have concerns about all the shit you have piled on top of the platter, how thick is your mat sandwhich? Did you raise your arm to come close to correct VTA? are you sure some of your trouble may be caused by some of the tweaks you cherish? I don't like the idea of stickin shit between the cart and the arm. That just doesn't sit right with me. I think the cart should be really tight to the arm, then damp the arm. Maybe the cartridge choice is wrong too. Don't have any ideas, except what might be recommended for the Origin arm.

W

[TheChairGuy]

John,

I can't believe what I'm hearing from you...sell the Technics? how are you going to get Christmas cards from lcrim? Perhaps the Origin arm isn't up to the task or you haven't stepped on the right duck to get the thing to squawk the way you want to. I felt that way early on with my technics, but I kept on. Genius is 1% inspiration, 99% perspiration, buddy. Get back on the horse and rethink your tweaks. I have concerns about all the shit you have piled on top of the platter, how thick is your mat sandwhich? Did you raise your arm to come close to correct VTA? are you sure some of your trouble may be caused by some of the tweaks you cherish? I don't like the idea of stickin shit between the cart and the arm. That just doesn't sit right with me. I think the cart should be really tight to the arm, then damp the arm. Maybe the cartridge choice is wrong too. Don't have any ideas, except what might be recommended for the Origin arm.

W

Wayner,

I've been on lcrim's shit-list a bunch of times, it's hard not to be sometime or another   

I can only tell you what I hear - and what I thought throughout the last 30 days using the Technics/OL exclusively.  I enjoy my time listening better with the JVC. 

The Origin Live comes standard with VTA adjust...so no matter the platter sandwich height, it has been fully adjusted and twiddled with for the best placement.

My honest and (mostly) unsubstantiated feeling is that there is more incorrect with the (stock) Technics 1200 than the (stock) arm....that there is something inherently inferior to the JVC either in feedback rejection or some aspect of it's speed control.  I'm postulating only - as anyone that knows me, I ain't no technodude 

No, it is not bad....it is better than any belt drive deck in recent memory (with the OL arm).  But, once you hear the splendors of the JVC with the Grado Gold/shibata...you have little to complain about.

In fact, I said to myself many times in listening to the JVC in the past 'I'm not sure what else I need to be listening for that I'm not getting hear'.  Believe me, I almost NEVER say that about anything is this cursed hobby    Yes, the JVC QL-F6/Grado Gold/shibata is THAT good...it's almost heaven sent.  With the exception of absolute bass power.

Henry - no real way to shoo in the OL arm to the JVC...it's semi-auto and there is no 'armboard' per se. 

Origin Live sells Grado's on their site.....so I can only presume they endorse them for their arms.  The OL arm, at 14 grams, may be a tad heavier than needed for the Grado - but I think it is a combo of the damped arm of the JVC being a great thing for Grado sonics AND some (slight) inferiority in the drive mechanism or feedback rejection relative to the JVC.

As well, Origin Live endorses the use of CartridgeMan's Isolator AND I've tried it rigidly adhered to the headshell, with a wedge of plast-i-clay in between and now with the Isodamp stuff.  Something in between sounded better than nuthin' in between.

Believe me, it pains me to say that my $100.00 spent on ebay for the JVC was NOT bested by the $2000.00 spent on the used Technics and the Origin Live Illustrious Mk. III arm.

Let me re-iterate...the Technics 1200 is a fine deck.  But, it was bested by a better deck...at least with a Grado Prestige series cartridge at the helm 

John

[GregC]

It is my understanding from past readings that Grado does not ideally mate with a Rega or OL arm.  I have run a Shelter 901 on an OL Silver arm and both a ZYX Airy 3S-SB and a ZYX Universe X-SB (low output) on an OL Illustrious Mk 2 arm and the above mentioned cartrdges all seem to be very synergistic with the OL arms.