Center speaker match for the 1801b

rklein · « **on:** 26 Apr 2004, 01:43 pm »

Hi Dave:

I got your email requesting to post my question to you on this site. Thanks for sending me here. Very nice site. Here is my situation... I am a classical musician. I have many faults, however, my ears are very good. This has always been a dilemma for me when picking out audio equipment at somewhat reasonable prices. The home theater factor has not helped this area. i.e. getting a DVD player that has a decent CD audio playback at a somewhat friendly price(2 kids in college...) I have a 16 x 23 family room that doubles for two channel and HT. My question is: I am considering purchasing the 1801b kit. These will do double duty as my front speakers for two channel and HT. My question is: what do I do for a center speaker to match the 1801b's? I am sure that my current Signet center will not match the quality of the 1801b. Would another 1801b work for my center? Thanks again for your help.

rklein

Al Garay · « **Reply #1 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 04:33 pm »

Try a set of 1801b's first and then find out if you truely need a center channel. They image extremely well. And the dialogue is very clear.

MaxCast · « **Reply #2 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 08:11 pm »

Order 5 kits and set up an assembly line

Otherwise, try going with two if everyone is close to the sweet spot or three of the same.

byteme · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Apr 2004, 08:19 pm »

As much as I like to believe that going without a center could be an option it just simply isn't if you're running 5.1/6.1/7.1 or even PLII for that matter. In fact, I'd probably say in that situation you'd be better off with ONLY a center an no mains! There just isn't a substitute for having a center unless the reciever uses some kind of proprietary method to fake a center.

So, to your point, I do know that Tyler at Taylor audio http://tyleracoustics.home.mindspring.com/taylo.html - makes speakers with the same mid/bass driver the 1801 uses. You could use one of his center channels, but they are pricey, depending on how close you sit you could also get away with a single mini ref or reference monitor. For one of those you should be within about 10 feet max. The difference there is going to be the tweeter and how the crossover is voiced, however, I don't know of ANY center which uses the Hyquphon tweet Ellis uses. Maybe you could find someone on Madisound who has done something similar with the same drivers?

Good luck!

randog · « **Reply #4 on:** 27 Apr 2004, 01:22 am »

http://murphyblaster.com/content.php?f=MBOW1.html

What I probably would have done had I known about it. Instead I have a GR-R AV-1 for center duties.

randog · « **Reply #5 on:** 27 Apr 2004, 05:02 am »

Well, lookee here...

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=circles

rklein · « **Reply #6 on:** 27 Apr 2004, 12:09 pm »

Thanks for the responses. Tyler Accoustics is not an option as they are more than what I have budgeted. The Selah option looks very interesting. The center will be right above my TV with only a wood shelf separating it. I believe the Selah center with the same tweeter as the 1801b's is unshielded. Will this be a problem

Thanks Randog for this info.

salva · « **Reply #7 on:** 8 May 2004, 06:48 pm »

Following on this, and since I'm thinking into doing a 1801f (after my experience with 1801b)....

What do you think abt using this as a 1801 central :

http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/USB.html

I like it, because uses a coaxial seas driver, but I'm worried abt being much lower performer than the 1801's, any other experiences unig diferents speakers to complete a full 5.1 with 1801's

Salva

jackman · « **Reply #8 on:** 8 May 2004, 06:54 pm »

I'd look at an MBOW1 for the center channel. I agree that if you want to use these in a home theater, you need a center.

J

salva · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 May 2004, 07:02 pm »

Problem is that the M130 driver is not available here in spain AFAIK, and while I will like to use that I will rudder will use a alternative design with drivers easier to obtain in Spain.

And, my experience you have to use a center as "capable" as your main speakers, and obiusly a 5.25" driver will not go as deep as a 6.25 driver.

As rear units, yes, they could be OK.

Salva

Quote from: jackman

I'd look at an MBOW1 for the center channel. I agree that if you want to use these in a home theater, you need a center.

J

David Ellis · « **Reply #10 on:** 10 May 2004, 08:09 pm »

I am sorry for my very slow response to this quesiton. Thanks gents for responding above. I suppose everyone has an opinion on this matter. I'm not sure there is any truly correct answer.

Please read my comments here: http://www.ellisaudio.com/cc.htm

I generally agree with Richard Hardestry on this subject. He's never heard a good HT system that sounded "better" with the center channel turned on. His full description is much more complete, but my summary is very close. I agree.

There are a couple more snippets I think might be valuable. First, if your focus, is Home Theater, don't buy my speakers. Sure, they are good, but you are wasting your money. While some HT program material is clean, there any many less expensive speakers that do just fine. Further, good HT source equipment is darn expensive. Marsh makes a good surround sound processor, but... ouch$! Home theater can sound very nice, but good HT sound comes at a very high price.

Second, if you insist on builing the 1801s, I suggest the MBOW1 for a center channel. The woofer can be obtained shielded and the MBOW1 is an exceptionally good sounding speaker. Don't let the simple paper cone from GR Research decieve you. It's good, darn good.
With some program material, there is almost no difference between the MBOW1 and 1801.

Please understand that I have no hatred towards HT. I like HT. I also have some degree of budget on my audio hobby. Obtaining equal quality sound in HT much more expensive than in 2 channel. Given an unlimited supply of money I might have HT. Then... maybe not. Mounting good big speakers around my living room would never net WAF approval.

Hopefully my remarks help.

tybee · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 May 2004, 11:12 pm »

I have to agree with Dave's comments regarding HT. My combined music/HT sysyem is 4.1 with no center. The front channels handle all of the frontal information quite nicely, so I have no need for a center channel with extra wire and amplification. For most of us with non dedicated rooms, 5 or more speakers are just too much!

salva · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 May 2004, 06:58 am »

I have do disagree (or actually agree) with Dave ... I bougth a 1000$ HT (speakers only) and while the sound OK they are no match whatsoever to the 1801b, that is so acute that with the 1801 I found myself listening to classical music (I'm no fan of classical) and with my HT I had to turn it off after 30 seconds of playing classical.

Then I decided that I wanted a couple of 1801's as main speakers. but I don't want to loose viewing films in 5.1.

So, that is why I guess that wanting HT with 1801 does not necessarily means that you are not going to fully "appreciate" the caracter and quality of the 1801.

But having said that, the line is .. wanting a copuple of 1801 because its cuality and as a add on putting 3 speakers to form a ocassional HT, not wanting to use the 1801 as the center of your HT and nothing else, that is a mistake.

Salva

David Ellis · « **Reply #13 on:** 12 May 2004, 01:06 am »

Quote

Problem is that the M130 driver is not available here in spain AFAIK, and while I will like to use that I will rudder will use a alternative design with drivers easier to obtain in Spain.

Well, if you have access to a very gold crossover voiced similar to the 1801, then it might be okay. I a/b tested the MBOW1 and 1801 and found them amazingly similar. The quality of Danny's paper cone midwoofer is very good.

Quote

And, my experience you have to use a center as "capable" as your main speakers,

This is very true. That's why I recommended the MBOW1. I think the sound is darn similar - very good.

Quote

and obviously a 5.25" driver will not go as deep as a 6.25 driver.

Er, as an "obvious" statement... that's incorrect. The bass depth a speaker is able to produce is determined by it's Fs (resonant frequency), and Qts (total Q). Driver with a lower Fs and higher Qts will produce lower bass. The authority of such low bass reproduction depends on thermal compression, linearity (somewhat), and X-Max. The smaller 15cm scanspeak drivers are indicative of small drivers that produce very nice bass. The bigger pro-series drivers are indicitive of drivers with a high Fs and low Qts that don't produce low bass.

I MUST also offer that in the case of the GR130 driver and the W18, this generalization is true. The GR130 gives up about 15hz of bass to to the W18.

In a HT application, this will be of little consequence since a subwoofer will be used.

Dave

salva · « **Reply #14 on:** 31 May 2004, 09:03 am »

Well, I've taken the plunge and went to do a a copuple of KITS more, one of them is going to be used as a HT as well.

I decided to made the MBOWI for rears and center, but the prospect of having a vertical center is not "very" apealling

Now, I can go to the A/V series an get the A/V3S for center.

Only thing is that the tweeter is different for the A/V3s and the 1801.

Any experience using A/V3S with 1801's ?

As far as the rear goes ...

What is the experience Integrating 1801's with A/V rears instead of using MBOWI.

Perhaps I can experiment, using the AV3S with the OWI Tweeter using the MBOWI xover.

Any thougths ?

Salva

drovn · « **Reply #15 on:** 24 Jun 2004, 02:05 pm »

Hello,

I found this forum searching for center channel discussion and read the posts with people concerned about whether to add a center or not. I recently purchased a Yamaha RX-V1400 for about $625 at 6th ave electronics. I am on a budget and my best speakers are a pair of JBL N-26II for front, a Pioneer C-77 (circa 1970?) on a couch behind the tv about 7 feet, for a Center, and two Radio Shack Minimus 7's for back surround. ( I just got this receiver so that's the reason for this renegade setup!)

The Yamaha has an optimizer mic that goes through it's paces calibrating the levels on all your speakers...matched set or random throw togethers.

My wife and I were surprised by the sound of the tv and dvd's we rented. I can only imagine what it will sound like when I decide on speakers that are matched correctly.

I want to build something similar to the Audax center speaker kit by Joseph D'Appolito along with matching front and rear speakers.

This is not an ad for the Yamaha, but I just wanted to let the people who posted replies to the Center Channel question, that perhaps this budget, full featured receiver will enable your better quality speakers to exist respectfully with those of lesser quality.

David Ellis · « **Reply #16 on:** 28 Jun 2004, 04:37 pm »

Thanks a bunch for your comments on the receiver. I am not well abreast of all products on the market - especially the home theater stuff. I find it impressive that this techonology has became so cheap. I think a company called DACT came out with this suff a few years ago. Back then it was pretty expensive. It appears this processing has became fairly cheap.

I am sure it sounds very nice, but with all things there is no free lunch. The digital processing has some impact on signal fidelity. Audio is filled with compromises though. I am glad you found a favorable set for your living room.

Quote

perhaps this budget, full featured receiver will enable your better quality speakers to exist respectfully with those of lesser quality.

In the realm of loudspeakers, frequency response levels are indeed important. However, other factors are present too... cheap capacitor grit... non-linear motors... flexible cones... spider distortion... phase cancellations... poor filter circuit design... impulse response...waterfall analysis... . All of these things can & do exit in varying degrees in loudspeakers having the same frequency response.

If you are seeking a darn good speaker at reasonably low cost for HT, I highly recommend the stuff from GR-Research. Danny has some @ $200 kits that easily equal $1k+ commercial stuff.

Dave