[Wayner]

I think that many people believe that different is better, but later find out that different is just different. Once  you do a mod, it's hard to restore to original. That is why I am always hesitant to mod a TT. It must be the final solution, to something, un-satisfiying.

Wayner

[TheChairGuy]

      I am sorry, I know Chairguy you are very popular here on AudioCircle but I just can't buy that you tried all those mods and you couldn't get good fidelity from your SL-1200 turntable. So I guess that nullifies the thousands of SL-1200 customers that enthus about the stock and modified versions of that TT. There is something wrong in this equasion.

Audiosoul,

It's not a matter of being popular - we all hear differently.

What I heard with a fully modded $2500) Technics SL-1200 Mk. II was bettered by every table I brought in here - VPI Classic, JVC Ql-Y66F and QL-F6 and DUAL 701. They all sell/sold for equivalent or much, much less.  They all had various upgrades - but nowhere near the upgrades the Technics was subject to.

The VPI HW-19 Mk. III was similarly unsatisfactory for similar money frankly...but when the $1000 SDS was added it changed completely.  Once so off pitch I couldn't listen to more than 10 minutes of it - with the SDS it was great.  That setup bought used with the Origin Live arm is $3500+ and the new VPI Classic is at least it's equivalent and likely better.

As doug s. stated earlier...my deck was fairly well beaten.  It more than likely could use a new main bearing.  I doubt I'd ever invest in one of the $300+ aftermarket main bearings when the Technics ones are $50 to put it on a square playing field. If I ever find time and have the inclination I'll spend another $50 (or whatever, maybe it's $100 now), 30 minutes to install it and see again.

But, my last go-round with the fully modded Technics was very underwhelming. In light of $2500, it's a poor sonic value to me.  It's a fine DJ deck and feedback rejection is heroic...but it didn't cut it sonically.  For under $500 they were once going for bone stock - marvelous value.  But, $2000-$2500 in add-ons didn't change it's mid-fi character. For me.

If you like yours or others love theirs - good for you all.  When I first made the statement 2-3 years ago that I don't care for the modded Technics I caught a raft of shit from Technics owners such as your statement above. Ok - I got my big boy pants on - but a tidal wave of alternative opinions doesn't sway me from the opinion that $2500 is best spent on many other decks both current and past.

Sorry I couldn't make your day and recant my vote on the sonics Mind you, I didn't say it's terrible...merely that it doesn't measure up to many other decks for similar or lesser money.

If you care to read with an open mind - here's two topics I wrote on the subject at hand:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=48506.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50206.0

However, if you read it an still bait me with a borderline abusive post in response to my semi-dissatisfied opinion of the SL-1200 Mk. II...I won't likely respond.  I've learned on these forums that we all hear differently and everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm not gonna' feed into any underlying anger for bruised ego's that happen from time to time.

John

[doug s.]

I think that many people believe that different is better, but later find out that different is just different. Once  you do a mod, it's hard to restore to original. That is why I am always hesitant to mod a TT. It must be the final solution, to something, un-satisfiying.

Wayner

regarding the unsuspended empires, two things strike me - first, the mods can be undone in relative short order w/o any difficulty.  second, i cannot imagine they would do anything but improve an already fine sounding turntable.  not yust "different", but better - lower noise floor, better tone, etc...

suspended empires are a little more difficult - you need to fab a tonearm mount and are pretty-much limited to 9" arms; and building a new base seems a bit more difficult as well.  that said, again it seems that it could be put back to stock w/o any trouble...

i have waited over a year for a local motorcycle shop to fab a mount for me so that i can mount my o-l rb250 to my 498; i gave him all the dimensions/dwgs/etc, and it would be a 30 minute yob; if only he would actually do it.     but, i got sent overseas, and only recently started bugging him again, now that i am back.  i am really wanting to try this set up.  some day, when i grow up, i will have my own machine shop...   

doug s.

[Delta Wave]

John, are you having flashbacks from another site that can't be named?   

[TheChairGuy]

Check out my post above regarding sl1200 sound. It can be really good. Awesome with some rock records. I too just picked up a jvc qly66f, and with the same at440 and not much set up, its like a sl1200 picked up some of that snap and air the project has. ( I'm kind of newby on set up, need to start a thread about that soon, but the technics and jvc are easy to set overhang) It does show the 1200 has a sound characteristic. The chimes at the beginning of time on dark side of the moon's "time" sound slightly brighter in a good way. I'm curious to try one of the cheaper bearing replacements for the 1200 though.

Not to take this one too far afield....but the feet are all important with the JVC QL-Y66F.  Like no other table I've ever owned...it responds to feet changes.

Because feedback is it's major bug-a-boo...the best equipment support I've found is a 4" think maple cutting board under it.  Between the deck and maple are brass toes and Herbies footers.  Best combo I've found 

[gprro]

Not to take this one too far afield....but the feet are all important with the JVC QL-Y66F.  Like no other table I've ever owned...it responds to feet changes.

Because feedback is it's major bug-a-boo...the best equipment support I've found is a 4" think maple cutting board under it.  Between the deck and maple are brass toes and Herbies footers.  Best combo I've found 

Yeah, I'll be calling you over to my set up and info thread for that later  Do have herbies on it now, with a damped bottom!

[rcag_ils]

My Empire 598 mkIII motor gromments are in perfect condition and there is zero motor noise. It has once again, become my everyday deck. I wonder how many thousands of hours are on her?

Don't mean to start another debate, but I do find it hard to believe. I remember you mentioned that you bought your Empire in about 1974, that makes those grommet isolators over 30 years old. The rubber may not appear to be dry, hard, or cracked, and they may still appear to be pliable and soft, but the isolating property of them probably have deteriorated quite a bit. The Empire motor does make noise, it's the question of if the noise will get transfered to the tonearm pick up or not. I 've helped  a hundred maybe more people all over the world, I mean all over the world, getting rid of that noise and all have positive result.

[2gumby2]

Something to think about, eh Gumby? It's the Empires that inspired HW to build the Classic. Despite all the cool ideas, only you know if you have the time and inclination to start a project or deal with a vintage table. Things like shipping damage or missing/broken parts (always possible), can be time consuming and frustrating. Did you buy your KAB already modded by Kevin?

Owning the stock 1200 puts you in a good position. You can probably sell it now for more than you paid? I wouldn't doubt it now that it's been discontinued. Maybe when you get the opportunity, or make the opportunity, you'll be able to check out some of the tables you're considering. Nothing is perfect (including the Classic) and I think you need to find out what you like. Some Classic owners aren't crazy about the arm and say only certain carts sound good with it.

You could always jump in and buy something. Maybe you'd like the Rega. If you got it and didn't like it, it might be hard to recoup your money selling used. If you put it on a charge card with Needle Dr, you could probably return or exchange. I would suggest asking about this first. Buy it from an reputable dealer and use the card, not paypal. I know ND exchange things, but I don't know all their policies. If you use your card they don't have much choice. You can always cancel the charge.
neo

I sent my SL-1200 to KAB for the Cardas tonearm rewire and strobe disabler. The biggest difference I've ever experienced was with the phono preamp. When I changed to a Bel Canto phono preamp, the differece was HUGE. The Bel Canto is a fantastic.

[Wayner]

Don't mean to start another debate, but I do find it hard to believe. I remember you mentioned that you bought your Empire in about 1974, that makes those grommet isolators over 30 years old. The rubber may not appear to be dry, hard, or cracked, and they may still appear to be pliable and soft, but the isolating property of them probably have deteriorated quite a bit. The Empire motor does make noise, it's the question of if the noise will get transfered to the tonearm pick up or not. I 've helped  a hundred maybe more people all over the world, I mean all over the world, getting rid of that noise and all have positive result.

Well, I actually take care of my equipment. The grommets are in like new condition, cause I have treated them a couple of times. If you'd like me to take a picture, I sure can. There simply is no noise. None.

Wayner

[neobop]

Gprro,
You asked about the Denon anniversary table. It looks identical to the previous top model but with a different finish. I don't know if anyone has actually opened one up to confirm that. The discontinued one sold for 5 to $600. The cart is a modified 103 and sells for $500 by itself. It now looks like a much better value at $1500 for the package. Someone on another forum thought it might have improved electronics/motor over that previous model. The arm looks like the same budget model.

I'll add too, that I also have a kab 1200, and was curious about how a lighter, rigid plinth belt drive sounds. Picked up a pro-ject xpression2 with a speed box, and at440 cart. The project had a better upper midrange, female harmonics sounded much better I though, floaty and airy sounding. It has a nimble and snappy sound too. I expect the rega's would have a similar sound. Almost thought it was running faster actually until I measured a couple long tracks with a stopwatch. It was near identical to the sl1200, near enough that my margin of error clicking a stop watch is greater, talking 1/10ths of a second. Swapped the at440 over to the 1200, and that showed the differences with the 1200 pretty easily.  The sl1200 has more weight and drive, but is a little darker and slugish in some areas, though still not bad. I'm actually selling the pro-ject soon if that says anything.

The discussion of the relative merits of the 1200 is appropriate here and might shed some light on Gumby's situation. When I was setting up tables professionally, I had a friend who was a DJ at dance clubs. I put a Baerwald alignment on his 1200 which was a revelation to him. He sent many of his buddies over and I set up quite a few. I also sold them, so I became familiar with the sound. Earlier, after the 1200 was adopted by the DJs, Technics optimised it for that application. The table has admirable isolation, feedback immunity and powerful bass capabilities. There is a darkness, overdamped quality to the mids. This combination is just fine for that environment but may not be perfect for the audiophool. Maybe in combination with the Bel Canto, it's close. If you suspect that John's comments might be overstated because he received his 1200 in bad condition, I'm telling you something similar. What you choose is another question.
neo

[Wayner]

No it's not. The alignment tool for a Technics SL1200MKII puts it in a Stevenson alignment.

Wayner

[Wayner]

Technics TTs have a spindle to pivot distance of 215mm. The specs claim 15mm overhang. A Stevenson alignment puts the overhang at 15.886mm, a Baerwald alignment is at 17.817mm, almost 2mm out farther then the alignment tool puts it. I my self have mine all aligned to Lofgren B, which is 18.282mm, for an even better sound. Lowest average distortion, longest arc.

Wayner

[neobop]

Wayner,
Right you are buddy. I meant what turntable he chooses. Maybe his 1200 + the Bel Canto is a really nice combo. I only glanced at a review, but it's said to be sweet, uncolored and eminently listenable.

Baerwald sounds better anyway. 
neo

[2gumby2]

Technics TTs have a spindle to pivot distance of 215mm. The specs claim 15mm overhang. A Stevenson alignment puts the overhang at 15.886mm, a Baerwald alignment is at 17.817mm, almost 2mm out farther then the alignment tool puts it. I my self have mine all aligned to Lofgren B, which is 18.282mm, for an even better sound. Lowest average distortion, longest arc.

Wayner

Wayner - Kevin at KAB told me to use the Stevenson alignment on my SL-1200 and that Technics designed this TT for that alignment. Can you explain in more detail why the Lofgren B would be better than what the engineers at Technics designed it for? Thanks!

[Wayner]

OK, I'm not sure the design guru's at Technics knew then what is known about alignments in general now, and information wasn't as easy to get at like today, because of the internet.

The Stevenson alignment of the major three (Baerwald, Lofgren) is closest to the label area at 60.325mm from the spindle. That put the distortion rise very low at the lead-out. However, and it's always the case, when we shrink the distortions at the end, we greatly increase them at the beginning. So the Stevenson curve is "unbalanced" in it overall mechanical/tracking distortions. However, as this inner band is also where the music is the most compressed, I can see the logic of why Technics decided to use the alignment, and why Stevenson created it.

Lofgren and Baerwalds alignments (very similar) even the distortions out, producing a lower average harmonic and tracking distortion, with Lofgren's alignment slightly better in average.

I like the Lofgren alignment (if you can get to it) because of those reasons, and it puts the stylus arc out the farthest of the three.

We know that a longer arm like a 10.5, 12" or greater, has a lower tracking distortion, because as the arm's arc increases, it begins to slightly mimic a straight line (tho that's impossible, cause it's an arc).

If we get to really long arms, then other problems start to develope with the arm because of mass/deflection/size and creates other issues, best discussed in another thread.

So, the Lofgren alignment (70.285/116.604mm) will use up almost all of the slot in the headshell on a Technics. Some tonearms of older ilk will not be able to get to the Lofgren alignment, cause they run out of slot (unless you want to start filing on some metal). Then the Baerwald alignment is the next best thing.

I know there are guys here at AC that just love the Baerwald alignment, and that's fine for me, to each his own. But to be direct and to the point, the Stevenson alignment is simply old fashioned and outdated.

All IMHO.

Here is the geometry for a Lofgren alignment on a Technics with a 215mm tonearm to spindle distance:

 

Wayner 

[AudioSoul]

Audiosoul,

It's not a matter of being popular - we all hear differently.

What I heard with a fully modded $2500) Technics SL-1200 Mk. II was bettered by every table I brought in here - VPI Classic, JVC Ql-Y66F and QL-F6 and DUAL 701. They all sell/sold for equivalent or much, much less.  They all had various upgrades - but nowhere near the upgrades the Technics was subject to.

The VPI HW-19 Mk. III was similarly unsatisfactory for similar money frankly...but when the $1000 SDS was added it changed completely.  Once so off pitch I couldn't listen to more than 10 minutes of it - with the SDS it was great.  That setup bought used with the Origin Live arm is $3500+ and the new VPI Classic is at least it's equivalent and likely better.

As doug s. stated earlier...my deck was fairly well beaten.  It more than likely could use a new main bearing.  I doubt I'd ever invest in one of the $300+ aftermarket main bearings when the Technics ones are $50 to put it on a square playing field. If I ever find time and have the inclination I'll spend another $50 (or whatever, maybe it's $100 now), 30 minutes to install it and see again.

But, my last go-round with the fully modded Technics was very underwhelming. In light of $2500, it's a poor sonic value to me.  It's a fine DJ deck and feedback rejection is heroic...but it didn't cut it sonically.  For under $500 they were once going for bone stock - marvelous value.  But, $2000-$2500 in add-ons didn't change it's mid-fi character. For me.

If you like yours or others love theirs - good for you all.  When I first made the statement 2-3 years ago that I don't care for the modded Technics I caught a raft of shit from Technics owners such as your statement above. Ok - I got my big boy pants on - but a tidal wave of alternative opinions doesn't sway me from the opinion that $2500 is best spent on many other decks both current and past.

Sorry I couldn't make your day and recant my vote on the sonics Mind you, I didn't say it's terrible...merely that it doesn't measure up to many other decks for similar or lesser money.

If you care to read with an open mind - here's two topics I wrote on the subject at hand:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=48506.0
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=50206.0

However, if you read it an still bait me with a borderline abusive post in response to my semi-dissatisfied opinion of the SL-1200 Mk. II...I won't likely respond.  I've learned on these forums that we all hear differently and everyone is entitled to their opinion and I'm not gonna' feed into any underlying anger for bruised ego's that happen from time to time.

John

   Chairguy, I don't own a Sl-1200 but I did and I thought it was a great TT for the money. Obviously I didn't think it was the last word in vinyl reproduction but I think highley of it as do others. I am not asking you to change your opinion of it, I just cant fathom how so many others like it but you don't. Maybe it is the bearing or something else I don't know. I didn't mean to step on your toes. Sometimes the tone gets lost or miss interpreted in messages like this......

[2gumby2]

Wayner - Thanks for expanding on your reason for using Lofgren B. It's interesting that when Kevin at KAB told me I should use the Stevenson alignmant, he refered to Baerwold and Lofgren B as out dated. I may have to experiment someday. Vinyl can be fiddly.

[Wayner]

Here are 2 plots for the Lofgren B and Stevenson alignments on a Technics SL1200mkII/1210, both having a 215mm spindle to tonearm pivot distance.

While the Stevenson appears to have the upperhand with almost no distortion at the 2nd inner null point, in between the 2 nulls, it's huge, as it is also in the beginning of the record.

 

 

Lots of records don't even have music at the 70-80mm point. Going to cleanout groove in most cases. As you study the 2 curves, it will be apparent that while one has the upper hand in some regards, so does the other. That is why I recommend the one with the lowest average distortion. There may be some classical music guys that may benefit from the Stevenson alignment, as lots of classical music goes right out to the end of the clean-out.

Wayner

[2gumby2]

Wayner - Your graphs and additional information help me understand where you're coming from now and it makes sense. Thanks!!

[Wayner]

Just remember that every alignment has advantages and disadvantages. I know that there are members here that have their own favorite, and that is fine. The important thing is that you like how your LPs sound thru the entire side, and that you realize what geometry is doing to the mechanical aspects of the flattened out screw thread. Also remember that poor anti-skating will certainly affect these numbers and the resulting playback. Throw in some insufficient VTF, VTA and you could have a real mess. That is why you need to get all those things dialed in before you decide that you like one alignment over another.

When I get some free time today, I'll publish the distortion values for each alignment. I'll even throw in Baerwald, so everyone can make their conclusions. You can always make your own alignment, too, but that would require working knowledge of the geometry going on here, and a CAD would also be necessary. Anyone can learn it, but you do need the tools.

Wayner