[Letitroll98]

I have linked SLs articles before as well Dan. There is not 100% agreement, but on most cores issues, there is......................(many etc.'s culled for space-saving)

We're actually closer to agreement than you think.  I agree that the core points of his papers are not in dispute by anyone and there is a wealth of valuable information there and everyone interested in the subject should read his work.  I was hoping that I had expressed that in my previous post, sorry if I didn't make that clear.  And the data I do have disagreements with are more proof of concept things that are introductory to his main focus, I don't think he really meant them as rigorous investigation.  However, a big however here, I've seen other people run with that data to make all kinds of pronouncements that I do have problems with.  Additionally, some of Dr Toole's conclusions allude to that incomplete testing which gives a slight taint to those conclusions for me.  BIG LETTERS HERE: Please do not take this to mean I think this invalidates all of his work!  I have some questions and disagreements after reading just about all of his papers that are publicly available, but once again, I think everyone interested should also read them and come to their own conclusions.  However snagging some folks hanging around the Harmon facility for your double blind testing is hardly rigorous sampling. 

Commercial interests.  I DO NOT think Dr. Toole is a shill for Harmon Int. only trying to gain a marketing advantage for his company.  However, you cannot ignore that well received, groundbreaking papers delivered at industry conferences don't have a positive benefit to you and your employer.  Why do you think they publish so many of them?  My brother is a scientist who just delivered a "Best Paper" at his industry's annual conference, he was stoked over the benefits it will garner for himself and his company (you may have heard of Fluke).  None of these people are working on pure research at Stanford or MIT, so understanding the context can help us all understand the information more completely.  This explains why some of the papers have pictures of JBL speakers sprinkled through them, and no Polks.

Please, please, I am not impugning Dr. Toole's work, just taking the realities of working in an industry environment into account.  I would say the same about Linkwitz, Van Den Hul, Van Alstine, my brother, anyone publishing industry papers.  Good info, make sure to validate, and always come to your own conclusions.       

[Rclark]

Given all that AJ would you say any coaxial speaker would require no or very minimal treatment, or are you saying there is something special in your design?

[AJinFLA]

Given all that AJ would you say any coaxial speaker would require no or very minimal treatment, or are you saying there is something special in your design?

I'm saying barring reductio ad absurdum examples, little if any treatment should be needed if the acoustic source uniformly radiates into the furnished living room (above the schroeder frequency). Coaxial/point source radiation types, in general, have the upper hand here, but unfortunately, most have severe problems on axis. The drivers that I always cherry pick, including the KEFs, do not.
Is there something special about this? No. I don't think so.

cheers,

AJ

[James Romeyn]

The 8" subwoofer driver does (about) 20Hz-200Hz...Why would you want to high pass the monitors? They make very good bass, IMO...

State of the art bass is a distributed array with at least 3 subs (one must be above ear level).  4 subs is my preference.  The SAM-1 appear to make excellent bass.  If they do, it would indeed be preferred to run the SAM-1 full range if the user adds one sub or two (this would not be an ideal distributed sub array for various reasons, but would include some of its advantages). 

Only if the user adds 3-4 subs would it possibly (but possibly not) be preferred to high-pass the SAM-1.     

[Rclark]

I'm saying barring reductio ad absurdum examples, little if any treatment should be needed if the acoustic source uniformly radiates into the furnished living room (above the schroeder frequency). Coaxial/point source radiation types, in general, have the upper hand here, but unfortunately, most have severe problems on axis. The drivers that I always cherry pick, including the KEFs, do not.
Is there something special about this? No. I don't think so.

cheers,

AJ

 Sorry for the absurd questions, barring actual study, one of the pleasures of being an audio consumer is the ability to use the brute force method and just ask. Forgive my ignorance.

[AJinFLA]

Sorry for the absurd questions, barring actual study, one of the pleasures of being an audio consumer is the ability to use the brute force method and just ask. Forgive my ignorance.

Eh? Your question wasn't absurd at all. It was quite reasonable.
Feel free to ask more. What James stated is also true, multiple subs are a great solution to bass issues, as they smooth the response over a wide area.

cheers,

AJ

[mikecole]

For those of you that have heard these, how do they do in the foot tapping department. Do they get the ebb and flow of the music? Also, I have seen the word smooth used quite a bit. Does this mean they sound too polite? Or is it just that they do not sound harsh? These sure sound like they could be a good solution to the problem I have with my monitor size speakers. Although they can do bass (at least the 40Hz type), they do not really have enough weight to that bass.

[neekomax]

I've been listening to my SAM 1s for about 4 months now. They are not what I would call a 'polite' speaker. What I dig about them is that they can be both smooth and punchy/dynamic at once. Meaning that there is a fullness to the presentation without harshness, and yet punchy, impactful sounds are present in a very live way.

In room freq response is spot on, which is what gets my toes tappin'. 

And if you're looking for deep, well done bass in a monitor form factor without the need for a sub, I don't think that these can be beat, especially given their price. (You couldn't build them for this.)

[Rclark]

Seems like a great choice for small room full range.

[mikecole]

Neekomax, thanks for info.

[Chinaski]

These excel in the toe-tapping department!  Best part is they beg you to sit and listen, especially to your best recordings.  And they're quite kind to lesser recordings, too.  I seldom, if ever, find my head critically analyzing what I'm hearing instead of simply being taken along on the musician's journey.   These speakers will reward your ears handsomely listening to Beck's Paper Tiger and Round the Bend, or Annie Lennox's The Hurting Time, and many of the Rudy Van Gelder jazz remasters, but, and to me this is the cool thing about the SAM 1s is they will do justice to edgy, guitar-laden metal and rock, say Tool or Rage Against the Machine (not that my tastes go too deep into metal territory).  So the SAM 1s are quite the good all-rounder.

I've had my SAM 1s for 3.5 months and the bass is quite nice, deep, and full.  I have a largish 2-story room, very open to 3 other adjacent rooms.  Mine sit along the long wall about 3.5 feet away from the wall.  The bass I feel when sitting up in my loft is even slightly more impactful than the bass I feel sitting in my fave listening position.  Alas, bass does what it's gonna do unless you add something more to the room.  The bass I feel up in the loft is nearly indistinguishable from the bass my sub delivered.  They will deliver some "punch to the chest," too.  I used to always use my sub prior to getting the SAM 1s (but my previous monitors had very little low end by comparison) and now 99.9% of my listening consists of SAM 1s only (the sub, a near mint a/d/s ms3/u model, is only used during movies and TV now, or when I want to put a live band in my space cranked up to "11" (typically spurred on by consuming one too many Sierra Nevada Torpedos)). 

[mikecole]

Chinaski, thanks for the extra info. The toe-tapping ability of a speaker is pretty important to me. I geneally play my music at lower volumes (I'm married), but when my wife is out I like to raise the volume a bit. Although I generally listen to classic rock type stuff, my old ears are starting to like the easier listening type stuff also. I was looking for a standmount that had a slightly weightier presentation that what I have now. Like I said, the speakers I have now can go low, but the weight is missing on all but the best recordings. In addition, does anyone know what the real  minimum wattage needed is? My tube integrated only puts out 15 watts, but has no problem driving my 4 ohm 89db speakers.

[AJinFLA]

In addition, does anyone know what the real  minimum wattage needed is? My tube integrated only puts out 15 watts, but has no problem driving my 4 ohm 89db speakers.

Hi Mike,

There really is no "minimum wattage" requirement per se. Rather, there is a "maximum volume" requirement...and that is set by you .
The M1's are around 86-87db sensitivity free space. Things get a bit more complicated when one tries to determine maximum perceived loudness of a stereo pair in a semi-lossy reverberant room, at the listening position.
Let's just put it this way, one of my many amps is a Qinpu A6000 mkII http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/qinpu2/system_3.html, which is rated at 16 w/ch and has no problem driving the M1's to room filling levels in my albeit small house (room approx 17x16). Certainly won't hit concert levels, nor have the sort of unrestrained dynamics of my 300w/ch Tripath, but that is to be expected. Do also keep in mind that your amp will be driving it above 200hz, the built in plate amp drives the subwoofer below.

cheers,

AJ

[mikecole]

AJ, thanks. Sounds like 15 watts in a 11x14 room should not be a problem. It looks like I'll have to do some reading on the KEF driver, see if its something I might like.

[pslate]

Because most suck. Badly.
The "issues" have never been with the format, always the implementation/engineering (mainly the surround/throat). TAD, KEF and Genelec have finally stepped to the plate. More are sure to follow (think "China").

...and now back to our regular mini-monitor programming....

cheers,

AJ

Hi AJ,

I am interested in this post from the GR Research mini monitor thread. I thought it might be a bit better to follow up here. I am interested to know what your experience has been with these drivers. How do they compare to the Uni-Q. I know the TAD is super spendy, if I remember correctly they were around $1800 a pair from TAD! Your monitor is very intriguing 
Paul

[AJinFLA]

Hi AJ,

I am interested in this post from the GR Research mini monitor thread. I thought it might be a bit better to follow up here. I am interested to know what your experience has been with these drivers. How do they compare to the Uni-Q. I know the TAD is super spendy, if I remember correctly they were around $1800 a pair from TAD! Your monitor is very intriguing 
Paul

Hi Paul,

They all sound great! .
Keep in mind, the other AJ (Jones) worked at KEF prior to TAD, so there is a great deal of similarities in the design. I think the main difference, other than the treated aluminum vs beryllium, is the KEF use of the "tangerine" phase shield, which eliminates the typical on axis dip seen in (nearly) every coaxial, even the TAD http://www.stereophile.com/content/tad-compact-reference-cr1-loudspeaker-measurements. I also think they sound far more similar than dissimilar. I wouldn't look forward to trying to pick them out in a blind test....but of course, we don't listen blind at home, or at shows.
I have only heard the Genelecs briefly and not in a "listening room" scenario, but they sounded very good indeed. Don't get me wrong, unquestionably, there are differences. Commensurate with the price differences? Not IMO.
For what I'm trying to do with my design, the KEF is the driver.

regards,

AJ

p.s. Come on down to Axpona or LSAF and hear for yourself

[eclein]

AJ I heard your speakers today at a gathering in NJ.....excellent, we didn't do any tweaking as far as setup, they just put them on stands and boom they are really special. I've always loved JBL's but my next speakers will be yours. We need to talk about how to proceed......they will be perfect for my room.....I'll PM you in next few days...Thanks Ed L.

[neekomax]

You're gonna love 'em Ed   

Best sound for the money, IMO. Bass rocks too!

[tabrink]

Yes.. I am fabulously impressed with AJ. His attention to client should be noted as exceptional. Looking forward to  acquiring something in a smaller footprint from him as soon as he perfects it.
Tom

[eclein]

The quality of the detail is what really brought me into the music like I haven't been drawn into lately. When I left the AC,AN guys I was like, "I have some work to do" and "Where the F___ am I getting $ ??.??".
 
We were listening over and over to a Casandra Wilson tune with the neatest percussion groove and stylization, a type you don't hear often because a large majority of people think its a time waster until they hear it. This tune was done well, mics were placed perfectly at one point I blurted out, "I know that last stick hit dented the plastic head cover because I heard the change in the sound. You guys are going "yeah right Ed??" but if you play as long as I have you can tell stick material, cymbals being played, a general idea of drum head composition and little nuances that you just hear all the time and know exactly whats happened.

 The electronics were Tommys "Cherry" amp I believe and Mike's room and the owner just set them up and the music started. You could kind of hear them focus in and then it was "bye now I'm gone into another world"....LOL...in otherwords..Perfect for me!!! We were gathered in NJ and the owner of the speakers drove in from Connecticut (what a name for a state) but I always forget names...super nice guy.
 
 Does AJ just have this one model so far or is there another type yet???? They are made so well, everybody that lifted them said they were built out like tanks. We also heard Gallo 3.2?-the ones with the orbs and the big soup pot speaker turned in. A big black covering over it all.."Reference" model...whatever. They were excellent also but AJ's to me just drew me in faster and I found myself marveling at the sound.
 Its funny as "Lonewolf" and I were discussing stand mounted monitors we have heard and I asked him "what do I get next?" and we both mentioned these and then found out some were there...very, very nice and as I have heard very affordable for most folks...not I said Ed but most---LOL...hahahahaha A great day that got me thinking of other things instead of my recent loss. Thanks Bill "Pumpkinman" for the ride.