[pslate]

Clarity, speed, and dynamics. Really impressive dynamics for a large monitor, less bass than SAM-1 but maybe more nuanced (have not made up my mind there). Yes, the stands are made from aluminum extrusions and 80/20 t slot type connectors, got the parts and cut sections from an AC member. However I may have something in the works with AJ on a custom solution which I am pumped about. To be honest I am much more impressed by these than I thought I would be. Always nice!! Had a dream last night I was demoing speakers. First thing I did this am was turn on the rig  Hobby or addiction? All I know is that the first few weeks with new speakers are always so fun.

[AJinFLA]

I vote for another roadshow. Any chance of that happening AJ?

Hi Donald. I honestly hadn't given this much thought. If there was sufficient interest, I might. Perhaps in a Honey I Shrunk the Kids version, as these a biggish/heavy for a tour, given the pounding FedEx et al would give them.
Certainly nothing before LSAF, which has me buried. Maybe before CapFest (or just after), again, if there were enough interest.
Glad you are enjoying them Paul.

cheers,

AJ

[Donald]

AJ,

I remember how heavy the "Little" SAM 1's were. The UPS or Fed Ex guy wouldn't carry them to our front door on the second story. Decided to leave them at the garage. So I know where you are coming from.

[AJinFLA]

Yes, there was a trend towards neo drivers for a while, then came the neo fiasco and corresponding prices skyrocketing...which seems to be subsided...a bit. Neo woofers really help!!
A reduced size version wouldn't be as heavy as the SAM1s, but your FedEx guy might still not want to hoist them up stairs. I might assemble one just to see how heavy it would be...but not for right now.

[neekomax]

Yes, there was a trend towards neo drivers for a while, then came the neo fiasco and corresponding prices skyrocketing...which seems to be subsided...a bit. Neo woofers really help!!

I don't get it. Neo woofers?

[DS-21]

I don't get it. Neo woofers?

Woofer magnets made out of an alloy of neodymium, boron, and iron. As opposed to the ferroceramic magnets that have been standard since the 1970s. Neo magnets are much more powerful for their weight, so they greatly reduce the weight of speakers using them.

For a visual comparison, here are two B&C 8" woofers.

Neo:


Ferrite:

[neekomax]

Woofer magnets made out of an alloy of neodymium, boron, and iron. As opposed to the ferroceramic magnets that have been standard since the 1970s. Neo magnets are much more powerful for their weight, so they greatly reduce the weight of speakers using them.

For a visual comparison, here are two B&C 8" woofers.

Neo:


Ferrite:

Thanks! 

[jackman]

Yep, the Chinese cornered the market for neo magnets and jacked up the prices.  Driver prices shot up but we are seeing some relief.  DS-21's picture is an excellent representation of the size difference between Neo and ceramic ferrite magnets. 

[neekomax]

So, the M2 woofers use these, I take it?

[AJinFLA]

So, the M2 woofers use these, I take it?

No. Nor the M1. Hence my concerns about tour. More weight = more shipping drama chances. The M1 tour pair took a pounding. These aren't typical 2 way 5-6" monitors either, by a long stretch.

[neekomax]

No. Nor the M1. Hence my concerns about tour. More weight = more shipping drama chances. The M1 tour pair took a pounding. These aren't typical 2 way 5-6" monitors either, by a long stretch.

Gotcha.

[Saturn94]

No. Nor the M1. Hence my concerns about tour. More weight = more shipping drama chances. The M1 tour pair took a pounding. These aren't typical 2 way 5-6" monitors either, by a long stretch.

What you need is a Mid Atlantic rep willing to offer auditions to those interested.  It would be a tough job, but I'd be willing to volunteer.  You have my address to send a complimentary demo pair....

    

[medium jim]

Then there is the venerable Alnico Speaker Magnet Type, but cost is the issue:



Jim

[bigbang]

What you need is a Mid Atlantic rep willing to offer auditions to those interested.  It would be a tough job, but I'd be willing to volunteer.  You have my address to send a complimentary demo pair....

    

lol... I could be persuaded to represent the northern midwest with a pair too. But not until the amp for the rear driver is included in the cabinet though - might as well dream big if I'm gonna dream at all, right?!

[DS-21]

Then there is the venerable Alnico Speaker Magnet Type, but cost is the issue:



Jim

Well, that and the fact that Alnico is unsuitable for high quality speakers because it's so easy to demagnetize. Every "vintage" speaker that I've heard (JBL, Altec, Tannoy Gold) has had the wooly bass that comes from a weak motor. Since these did not start off weak-motored, one can safely infer the cause was Alnico demagnetization.

Here's a fun story that David Smith (designer of the outstanding Snell XA line, who also worked for JBL, KEF, McIntosh, and PSB) told Lansing Heritage about those obsolete magnets.

"The potential demagnetization of Alnico was also noticed at the time. I distinctly recall Greg Timbers having fun with modifying the parameters of Alnico woofers at will during development: "I think the Q is a little low on this one. Maybe a 2 dB drop in sensitivity would be about right. Lets give it full output for a second from the Crown DC600....Brrrapp. Curve it again and, yes, that's about right." -http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/smith.htm

[medium jim]

Well, that and the fact that Alnico is unsuitable for high quality speakers because it's so easy to demagnetize. Every "vintage" speaker that I've heard (JBL, Altec, Tannoy Gold) has had the wooly bass that comes from a weak motor. Since these did not start off weak-motored, one can safely infer the cause was Alnico demagnetization.

Here's a fun story that David Smith (designer of the outstanding Snell XA line, who also worked for JBL, KEF, McIntosh, and PSB) told Lansing Heritage about those obsolete magnets.

"The potential demagnetization of Alnico was also noticed at the time. I distinctly recall Greg Timbers having fun with modifying the parameters of Alnico woofers at will during development: "I think the Q is a little low on this one. Maybe a 2 dB drop in sensitivity would be about right. Lets give it full output for a second from the Crown DC600....Brrrapp. Curve it again and, yes, that's about right." -http://www.audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/smith.htm

All magnets can go out of alignment or demagnetize, it is real cheap to have Alnico Magnets re-magnetized:

http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?279-Alnico-Demagnetize

I have used Orange County Speaker for several recons on Alnico speakers and couldn't be happier.   If I ever get a chance to get a pair of Tannoy's, I will jump on it if the price is in my reach....

But we are bird walking, back to the SAM1's

Jim

[DS-21]

All magnets can go out of alignment or demagnetize, it is real cheap to have Alnico Magnets re-magnetized:

"Go out out of alignment" is very different from "demagnetize." Going out of alignment is caused by some sort of external shock, such as being dropped hard. (Or, I suppose, the weight of the magnet acting on the frame, if the frame is a thin cast variety; I've never personally seen that problem, though. Demagnetization, in the case of Alnico magnets, happens with ordinary use, as the thread to which you linked also states. That flaw, IMO, makes Alnico unsuitable for high-fidelity loudspeakers when we have two much more stable magnet technologies in ferrite and neo. Fortunately, the SAM1 didn't use drive units with Alnico magnets, so it's not an issue for those fine speakers. I presume the SAM2 doesn't use drive-units with Alnico magnets, either.

Alnico is unique among the major magnet technologies used in loudspeakers in the ease with which it demagnetizes.

I have used Orange County Speaker for several recons on Alnico speakers and couldn't be happier.   If I ever get a chance to get a pair of Tannoy's, I will jump on it if the price is in my reach....

The Mark Dodd* designed Dual Concentrics (mid-1990s D-series and Saturns for "home;" NFM, Studio and System series  for "pro") are vastly superior to the old Alnico-magneted ones. A cutaway of a Dodd-designed Dual Concentric is my avatar.

So if you see, say, a System 10 DMT II, run to go hear it. An old Arden or Berkeley or whatever...sure, it's better than most current speakers because at least the midrange polars are not so bad (but not something well-designed using modern parts, like the SAM1) but it's more a curiosity than anything else.

But we are bird walking, back to the SAM1's

Mr. Dodd, who designed the "Tulip" phase plug for Tannoy that was such a massive improvement over their old "Pepperpot" design, was later poached from Tannoy by KEF/Celestion, where he designed "Tangerine" phase plug used to such great effect in the concentric mid/tweeter used on, inter alia, the SAM1. IMO, Tannoy has not yet recovered from the loss of Mr. Dodd to KEF.

[nickd]

Not an expert on magnetics by any stretch, but Tannoy is using Alinco on their top of the line home concentric drivers and the sound is quite amazing (it should be for almost 50K). Who knows they might need a recharge in 20 years, but until then

I'm not sure they went with the "old school" alloy just for marketing. There might be something to the magnetic field / voice coil interaction that affects sound more than we currently understand. A stronger magnetic field is not necessarily more musical. There may be a sweet spot  in the field that the Alinco offers?

I remember testing 7" ScanSpeak drivers with a friend a few years back. Identical drivers: cone, voice coil, surround, basket (but one with a smaller magnet) sounded way different. The driver with the smaller magnet sounded WAY more musical.

[medium jim]

DS-21:

I respectfully disagree with your thesis on Alnico Magnets and offer the following:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CHMQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rare-earth-magnets.com%2FPermanent-Magnet-Selection-and-Design-Handbook.pdf&ei=rQx7UanHFKq6igLQrICwCQ&usg=AFQjCNECkf5kLUayWpTdAPaZGEZgtCF9NA&sig2=JbziLwOQf56EZRCMWq07fA&bvm=bv.45645796,d.cGE


As noted, shock is the reason for early demagnetization...

However, I must admit that I did like my KEF 104/2's.

Jim

[AJinFLA]

I'm not sure they went with the "old school" alloy just for marketing.

I am.

There might be something to the magnetic field / voice coil interaction that affects sound more than we currently understand.

Nope. However, there is more to (sound) perception than soundwaves...and that's something audiophiles will never understand.

I remember testing 7" ScanSpeak drivers with a friend a few years back. Identical drivers: cone, voice coil, surround, basket (but one with a smaller magnet) sounded way different.

Different (smaller) motor of same material would also measure and perform differently. Not surprising you would hear marked differences, as they would also require different alignments.

Now, I only mentioned neo because of weight. Nothing to do with "sound". Although a speaker smashed by FedEx would indeed sound markedly different from an intact one