New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed

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ttan98

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Hi

Danny,

Over the past 2years I have bought a numbers of drivers including M130, M165 and T2 from GR research, and since then I have designed and built(I have not posted them here yet) using these drivers and have been quite happy with them.

The itch is on again to build another speakers based on the speakers topology by Von Schweikert Audio spkrs,model:VR35 which consists of MTM drivers and 10" Peerlesss woofer mounted on the back/rear. This topology gives very good bass and also it can be placed close to the wall. These spkrs got rave reviews from users as well as reviewers. I think this topology is neat/cool.

The reason for this post is I like to build a pair of spkrs similar in topology(not a clone) based on the VR35 spkrs. I think at this stage rather design from scratch I would like to use GR Reesearch N3 spkrs(MTM) and add on a woofer. I can buy the the N3 DIY kit from you and I can do the following:

1. modified the existing N3 x-over and merge it with the Peerless woofer. Is this possible and viable or more like  I have to redesign of the x-over. The overall x-over would be passive

OR

2. use the existing N3 x-over and interface with an active x-over like the MiniDSP and drivers the peerless and M130 drivers driven  separately.

OR

3. Too difficult to design

I like this approach because it is very cost effective at the same time I can get the the design up and running quickly.

Danny what are your thoughts on this.

Vapor Audio

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Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #1 on: 26 Aug 2011, 01:12 am »
Are my comments welcome?   :D

jtwrace

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Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #2 on: 26 Aug 2011, 01:20 am »
Are my comments welcome?   :D

I know I'd like to read what you have to say. :thumb:

ttan98

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Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #3 on: 26 Aug 2011, 01:21 am »
Are my comments welcome?   :D

sure..

S Clark

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Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #4 on: 26 Aug 2011, 02:06 am »
Ryan?? Comments? 
In the meantime, I'll put in my two bits.  I don't know where the sealed N3 rolls off, but I suspect 70hz +- 5 with a gradual decline.  I suspect a rear firing woofer with a coil and a shunt cap could work reasonably well.  A key aspect would be the width of the woofer cabinet since it would dictate the baffle step frequency. 
Now, having said all that, wouldn't it be more effective and a helluva lot easier to just use a servo sub? They beat the pants off anything Peerless has.

HT cOz

Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #5 on: 26 Aug 2011, 02:08 am »
The N3TL is a solid bass performer.  Build the TL and add a servo sub and be done with it.   :thumb:  Turbo I like your comments.  :D 

Danny Richie

Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #6 on: 26 Aug 2011, 02:10 am »
That sounds like a speaker that Turbo build several years ago that got him started down this path.

It also sounds a little like my old A/V-4: http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=118

1) To keep it simple, go with the N3S (MTM) in the upper section and stick with the stock crossover.

2) Then side load the lower woofer to keep the box narrow.

3) Power the lower woofer with an SA-1 amp so that you have complete control over its output. It has a transform circuit on it that makes it ideal for a sealed box. The sealed box will also keep your box volume smaller.

S Clark

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Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #7 on: 26 Aug 2011, 02:12 am »
I've got a pair of AV3's, which have the same bass as the N3TL.  They do go down into the 40's, but I prefer the sound of the bass of a sub and my Neo2x.  I like the way the sealed speaker integrates better than the TL. 

Danny Richie

Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #8 on: 26 Aug 2011, 02:12 am »
HT cOz has a good point too. Add a servo sub and you're done. You'll never look back from there. And since they only need 1.5 cubic feet of air space, they can be integrated into a stand as well.

S Clark

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Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #9 on: 26 Aug 2011, 02:18 am »
Ryan?? Comments? 
...
Now, having said all that, wouldn't it be more effective and a helluva lot easier to just use a servo sub? They beat the pants off anything Peerless has.
That's three votes for a servo sub.   :thumb:  Hey, three consecutive agreeing opinions... Is that an A.C. first?

ttan98

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Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #10 on: 26 Aug 2011, 02:32 am »
Hi,

thanks for inputs fellows.

I prefer no servo sub because,
1. added cost
2. I have a good SS amp for the woofer.

Side mounted woofer(not servo assist) would not get any bass assistance from the back wall, hence the low freq. response would not be that low.

One of the design aspects is to get the Baffle step(BS) right if the x-over is at around 80Hz, Is the current N3 x-over BS adequate?

Danny Richie

Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #11 on: 26 Aug 2011, 02:35 am »
Quote
Side mounted woofer(not servo assist) would not get any bass assistance from the back wall, hence the low freq. response would not be that low.

The SA-1 amp has a transform circuit. It adds a lot more gain than you'll ever get from the wall. Plus, even side loaded, you will still get gain from the wall.

Quote
One of the design aspects is to get the Baffle step(BS) right if the x-over is at around 80Hz, Is the current N3 x-over BS adequate?

The N3 has had the baffle step loss completely compensated for.

Vapor Audio

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Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #12 on: 26 Aug 2011, 03:08 am »
My comments, forget the rear firing woofer.  "Being able to put it close to the wall" is just marketing dept mumbo jumbo.  And doing so complicates things unnecessarily.  The floor is a far better means to add boundary reinforcement than a rear wall ... distance to the floor is a constant, not a variable and as such can be modeled/simulated accurately.  And physically closer to the other drivers makes time/phase integration less problematic.  Side firing woofers are done to keep the front baffle narrow, but with some decent woodworking skills you can put a 10-12" woofer on front and still keep your baffle narrow (the best option of all btw).

In short there's no performance based reason to put the woofer on the rear.  It's simply done because somebody drew it up that way and the market guys said, yea we can find a way to sell that. 

Just adding a woofer the N3 crossover likely won't give satisfying results.  You have to add a high-pass for the N3 woofers obviously, and the pass band gain from the woofer will throw off overall balance above the woofer crossover point.  To do it right, you'd need to start from scratch or at least tweak the N3 crossover to accomodate.  That's if you're talking a full passive network. 

If you're talking actively integrating the woofer, that can be done more easily ... but how is it any better than adding a subwoofer?  With a separate sub enclosure, you can get phase alignment through physical positioning.  With the 'sub' being in the same box and actively crossed, phase alignment takes processing which many solutions don't have.  And IMO, the MiniDSP is not a suitable audiophile component.  I literally hate mine, it sucks the life out of anything it's hooked too.

I've lost track a bit of what I'm saying, but IMO the best way to go about it is with an all new network for your creation.  The Peerless 835017 is a real b*tt kicker woofer that has an extended top end, and high enough sensitivity that it would integrate very well into the N3.  But to get the most out of it, you'd want to releive the N3 woofer from having to take care of baffle step losses and let the 835017 do that job ... which means a new network.  Dannys woofers are a piece of cake to work with, so it wouldn't be difficult.  The tweeter network could likely be left mostly unchanged with just tweaks to the padding resistor for whatever the new sensitivity is.

Danny Richie

Re: New Speakers Based on N3 plus Woofer- Comments needed
« Reply #13 on: 26 Aug 2011, 02:47 pm »
Another easy way out while still getting great results is to leave the N3 crossover design as is and then roll the bottom end duty off of it by inserting an FMod modual in line with your amp.

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=266-272

Then power the woofer with a plate amp. This one has a lot of power, varible phase, a bass boost circuit for the bottom end (great for a sealed box design), and is ON SALE.

http://www.apexjr.com/Apexsenior.htm