[Wayner]

You guys keep going up the ladder, downloading huge files (hope your hard-drive, or SSD doesn't crash) all in the hopes for superior sound. can't blame you for that, but aren't you just really trying to duplicate the sound of vinyl, in the digital domain?

Why not just come on over? No more worries about losing files, compatibility issues with associated equipment or when the next download will come out.

The highest resolution is already waiting for you! It's the good old black pizza and it's got more information in them tiny grooves then your zeros and ones will ever have. There will be never enough for you. Give it up! I think this is where you really want to be, but won't admit it!

 

Wayner 

[Elizabeth]

I have 6,000  Lps, three TTs, phono boxes etc.
I would not just jump up and start a flame war over somebody elses choice of listening format. But that is just me.
I also have a reasonable Cd setup. And do not feel one is 'better' than the other, just different. (though I do have to say I still enjoy Lp sound slightly more than my CD sound, but CD is easier, so it is a tossup.
If I had any interest in high rez (I just do not have an interest in it at this time) I might be also into that.
So I have to say the op coming on so strong is just to incite a riot.
Not me, Folks who like hi rez good luck. just means less pressure on the used vinyl market IMO.

[Wayner]

My point is that there will never be enough zeros and ones to make these guys happy. Soon stuff at 192 won't be good enough and they will want even higher resolutions (there all ready are). Good for the drive industry, I guess.

Wayner

[Letitroll98]

Wayne you don't have to go with one or the other, you can have both.  You know I'm a dyed in the wool vinylphile, but I listened to and got some samples of Hi Rez audio at the Capitol Audiofest, and I have to say I was most impressed.  I don't need any more than the 24bit/192khz samples to think it matches the SQ levels of vinyl at my home.  (Some mega buck tables may still have an advantage over digital, but they won't be coming to my house anytime soon)  And with the price of DACs today, you can change out the sound as easily as changing cartridges at about the same cost.  I won't give up my library of liquorish platters either, but I will add Hi Rez audio to the library. 

[Wayner]

Letitroll, those are good points. The issues that I have is this. Who can afford to maintain two or more formats? And I have not bought into the idea that high res has equaled vinyl (yet).

The digital domain is still in a volatile state and sooner or later, can be corrupted. Drives die all the time, either by mechanical failure, electrical failure or viruses. Certainly (and quite obviously) back-ups are a must, and we can all talk smart, until a catastrophic failure happens and then it's....oh shit.

I guess some of my experiences working in the hard-drive industry has made me gun shy to go the high-res route. There also isn't lots of useful material that I would want anyway.

Vinyl can live forever, if properly cared for and will only benefit as equipment improves. High res files will always stay at whatever res they were recorded at.

Wayner

[rbbert]

So I'm guessing you don't really want an answer to your original question.

For me, I usually prefer well-mastered CD to vinyl, so I'm certainly not a vinyl wannabe.   With identical masterings, I definitely prefer hi-res (SACD or PCM) to CD.  Interestingly enough, I've recently acquired 24/96 needle drops (using very well-regarded analog equipment and ADC) of a few LP's that use (as near as I can tell) identical mastering to CD's (specifically recent re-releases of Miles Davis' Kind of Blue and Bitche's Brew, and the first 5 Grateful Dead studio albums), and do NOT clearly prefer the needle drops to the CD's (i.e., in contrast to my own opinions on hi-res digital).

[zybar]

NO, we aren't vinyl wannabies.

While I loved the sound that spinning the back circle can produce...I can't see myself moving back to it as my primary music source for quite a few reasons.

1.  Not all the music I want to listen to is available on vinyl.
2.  New vinyl can be very expensive compared to the cd or download versions
3.  I can't access my full collection with the flick of a finger, stylus, mouse, etc...
4.  Can't pause a record from my listening chair
5.  Can't listen for more than 20-30 mins at a time via vinyl

Back when I last had my vinyl setup (Linn table/arm, modified EAR phonostage, Benz cartridge), it took major, major, money to get a digital front end to come close to matching my vinyl setup.  However, I decided that I was willing to lose a little of the music's soul in order to improve how and what I listen to. 

This was one of the best decisions I ever made!!   

By switching to digital and computer based audio, I now not only get great performance, but all the ease of use advantages actually have me listening to more of my collection and a wider variety of musical genres.

As for comparing the challenges of backing up drives to maintaining a vinyl setup, I don't think one is more taxing than the other.  They both take a certain amount of work and you simply do what you have to do.  Just as I had a routine when I played vinyl (take out the record, clean the record, clean the stylus, play the record, put the record back), I have a routine for my computer based audio (rip or download the music to the primary server/HD, backup the primary server/HD - make sure to have an offsite backup).

Wayner, enjoy your vinyl and keep spinning the black circle.  I will keep enjoying digital playback via the computer. 

In the end, it's all about the music we listen to anyway...not the format and how you play it!

George

[timind]

The highest resolution is already waiting for you! It's the good old black pizza and it's got more information in them tiny grooves then your zeros and ones will ever have. There will be never enough for you. Give it up! I think this is where you really want to be, but won't admit it!

 

Wayner 

You mean information like snap crackle pop? You're correct, I don't get any of that wonderful information. 

[eclein]

I use all three.... They all sound really good...... I really enjoy THE Music thats on each format, thats the idea isn't it?? Who cares what form it comes to us in?

[Wayner]

You mean information like snap crackle pop? You're correct, I don't get any of that wonderful information. 

If you have poor vinyl management, that is the end result, or don't understand what causes snap crackle, pop.

When you have things dialed in, cymbal crashes sound real, vocals are in the room with you. You get the feeling that you are part of the recording.

QW

[ted_b]

Wayner, why must you put hi-rez'ers down to compare to vinyl lovers?  Why can't we all just enjoy our music, in whatever format?  Goodness knows I love hirez (started the HiRez Music Circle because of it) but love to spin some vinyl too, occasionally.  In my mind it's not about "if i win, you must lose."     

[wakibaki]

Can't you just enjoy your 3k5 LPs without making an issue of it?

I used to have vinyl. Now I have CDs. I wouldn't go back. I don't want SACD.

Most people (99%?) would agree with me and most people can listen to MP3s and enjoy them.

Take a chill pill. From what I've seen vinyl freaks and SACD fans have this in common, they're uptight about nothing.

w

[JCarney]

Wayner, why must you put hi-rez'ers down to compare to vinyl lovers?  Why can't we all just enjoy our music, in whatever format?  Goodness knows I love hirez (started the HiRez Music Circle because of it) but love to spin some vinyl too, occasionally.  In my mind it's not about "if i win, you must lose."     

Well said Ted, and I'm a vinyl guy.

JCarney

[TONEPUB]

I sure love vinyl, but I've heard some high res that sounds even better.  Am i going to change my buying or listening habits?  Nope. Can I replace my record and CD collection with hi res? Big nope there either, but it's pretty cool either way.

What I'd love to see instead of the same music that's already been remastered to death be done yet again in high res, is some current music and somewhat recent music that I don't already own available in 24/96 or higher. 

That would get my vote.

As for the argument, I've heard great vinyl and great digital.  Conversely I've heard terrible examples of both as well. And I'll always continue to listen to both with equal enthusiasm...

Heck, I've been listening to cassettes all day on my Dragon!

[Letitroll98]

Heck, I've been listening to cassettes all day on my Dragon!

Now that's just going too far.

 

[ted_b]

I sure love vinyl, but I've heard some high res that sounds even better.  Am i going to change my buying or listening habits?  Nope. Can I replace my record and CD collection with hi res? Big nope there either, but it's pretty cool either way.

What I'd love to see instead of the same music that's already been remastered to death be done yet again in high res, is some current music and somewhat recent music that I don't already own available in 24/96 or higher. 

That would get my vote.

As for the argument, I've heard great vinyl and great digital.  Conversely I've heard terrible examples of both as well. And I'll always continue to listen to both with equal enthusiasm...

Heck, I've been listening to cassettes all day on my Dragon!

What?  No UDAR?  (Nak's great cassette flipper idea).     Dragon was a great beast.

[*Scotty*]

The answer to the question is,not bloody likely!
Depending upon their age a person pursuing High Res may have never heard even a mid-fi vinyl
rig, let alone a High End moving coil set-up costing multiple thousands of dollars.
 To be a vinyl aficionado one must possess certain essential characteristics. One must be somewhat masochistic,enjoy engaging in ritualistic behavior,be willing to tolerate constant interruptions while attempting to enjoy a musicians performance and and be willing to embrace inconvenience in the pursuit of the vinyl lifestyle.
 Someone who is into the digital side of the hobby may not possess a sufficient degree or enough of these traits to make them a viable candidate for membership in the vinyl lovers club.
There is also considerably less to learn to get good sound from digital. Excellent sound from vinyl requires a good understanding of the mechanical aspects of turntables and precise setup of the cartridge in the arm. If you make a critical mistake it can cost you thousands of dollars in a destroyed cantilever. This is the polar opposite of the digital experience which requires no mechanical skill set at all.
 Most of my listening sessions are digital. I play vinyl when I want to hear music that I don't have a digital copy of or when the transfer to digital was flawed enough that it wasn't as good as the analogue version. While I enjoy the sound I get from my vinyl rig I am very happy to have a painless alternative which will play for hours at a time with zero attention.
Scotty

[TONEPUB]

Scotty:  I think one is somewhat masochistic regardless.

If you have a music server, like it or not, you've become an IT guy.  If you love vinyl, you're a suspension mechanic.

But I agree with you, I really do enjoy just pushing the "random" button on the Sooloos!

[kingdeezie]

You guys keep going up the ladder, downloading huge files (hope your hard-drive, or SSD doesn't crash) all in the hopes for superior sound. can't blame you for that, but aren't you just really trying to duplicate the sound of vinyl, in the digital domain?

Why not just come on over? No more worries about losing files, compatibility issues with associated equipment or when the next download will come out.

The highest resolution is already waiting for you! It's the good old black pizza and it's got more information in them tiny grooves then your zeros and ones will ever have. There will be never enough for you. Give it up! I think this is where you really want to be, but won't admit it!

 

Wayner 

Wayner, the entirety of your argument in this post is based on anecdotal perspective and your slanted opinion.

First off, vinyl sounding better or worse then digital is not a fact; its a matter of opinion. While I do miss my vinyl setup from time to time because for some recordings it did sound better, I can't universally say that everything benefited from vinyl.

Secondly, yes a "virus" or my hard drive "crashing" can cause me to lose my music. Its a good thing that terabyte drives are getting cheaper and cheaper by the week for backup. Oh, and, CDs, DVDs, and DVD RWs do a pretty good job of also preserving the information as well.

Thirdly, if we are to point out the inherent risks of hard drive based media, lets not be completely ridiculous and ignore how fragile vinyl is. Nothing is better then buying brand new vinyl, that out of the sleeve has skips because of poor manufacturing quality control. I've had this happen to way too many new vinyls. If your lucky to get new vinyl, or old vinyl, without skips and scratches, be careful when playing them; a slip here or there, hand tremor, moment of distraction can brick an album very quickly. Make sure you also spent hours setting up your cartridge (depending on how fickle the cartridge is manufactured) because an incorrectly hung cantilver can also brick an album. Also, even if properly set up to, research shows that vinyl degrades with consistent playback anyway. Not exactly bulletproof is it?

Fourthly, cracks and pops exists. All the cleaning, vacuuming, wood gluing, and brushing in the world won't guarantee zero noise. I know you have mentioned several times that YOU don't have any problems with these things; people do all the time. As quiet as you can pretend to get your vinyl, it won't compare to a digital high rez or rebook file. This is fact.

Lastly, people want high rez because they want to maintain the convenience, ease, and reliability of digital playback with better sound quality. There is nothing wrong with wanting more. While vinyl might offer better sound quality in some cases, it comes with obvious drawback. To ignore the drawbacks in favor of crafting a point of view is foolish.

 

[dlaloum]

I don't see digital as being optional....

Let me explain:

Huge leaps and bounds in speaker resolution and capabilities are being achieved through the use of digital crossovers and digital room EQ. (Yes I am conflating Room response and speaker response - in the real world, I think we have to)

To take advantage of these improvements - the signal will, at some point in the chain, have to be digitised.

In my opinion, the fewer conversions are involved the better the end result, and each AD/DA conversion should be done at as high a quality as possible... In a perfect world there should be only 2 conversions - the first to digital and the second the very last one to analogue before the speaker driver - everything in between these two steps should be high quality digital.

With regards to software on the other hand - as we all know, the mastering is almost always different between a vinyl and a digital release (and the source for the vinyl is often digital!), and there is no guarantee that a particular format will be the superior recording. - For many the vinyl mastering is better for some the digital mastering is better - and for a very rare few, the two are mastered equally well, but personal preference might tilt one way or the other.

So a dedicated music afficionado has to have both... for software reasons.... because the availability in each format is different. (and yes just to reiterate, I am assuming that Title X on vinyl is considered a different product/recording to the same Title X on digital)

In my own system - the TT goes to the Phono stage which goes to the ADC.... the ADC feeds the Media PC which feeds the Pre/Processor, the pre/processor then feeds the power amps that drive the speakers.

This way I convert to digital as early as possible in my chain... I have multiple opportunities for processing along the way - and can EQ the cartridge output for flat frequency response as one example... the processor handles both crossover duties as well as room EQ.

So my answer is Digital - YES, and Vinyl - YES....
They are NOT mutually exclusive.

Like any system - the final resolution will be as good as the weakest link in the chain... and I am aware that both the ADC and the DAC are critical links in my systems chain - a noticeable improvement was achieved with my last ADC upgrade - and I believe more is achievable.... but then the same can be said of any system! (The holy grail is always just out of reach isn't it??)

bye for now

David

P.S. I currently have 50,000+ tracks in digital, and around 400LP's on Vinyl - many/most of my digital tracks are unfortunately mp3, so the higher quality stuff I have is mostly vinyl.