[DaveNote]

I understand why the Demo is Everything for James. He says today that he uses this phrase because doing audio is harder than saying it. I can see why he embraces the demo. For a manufacturer it is imperative. Bryston gear wouldn't be so great without it.

But what about the consumer?. For many, like me, who are away from large centers, or near but a distant hike from one, the demo is all but completely dead. In the past couple of years I have bought Sennheisr HD800s, a Grace Designs m902 headphone amp, Audeze LCD2 headphones, and most of all, PMC MB2i speakers, all without demos. For three of these items, there was no dealer for the equipment within the country, let alone locally. I have also bought a Bryston DAC and the BDP-1 without demos. I have that degree of confidence in the gear, but in any case it would have been a long wait to get these items.

It used to be that dealers gave you demos because they had the gear, and most used to keep in stock what they demoed. I can say this because I've been buying gear for over 40 years. The former retail audio market is a thing of the past for reasons that have been discussed on this circle. Yet the demo, which should be something, if not everything for the consumer, is largely a relic of a bygone era.

So what about the demo being everything for you? My question is this: In the past five years or so, how many, and which, pieces of equipment have you bought sight unseen?

[zybar]

I can honestly say that I haven't made any large stereo purchases in the last 5+ years without a demo or home audition.  The only possible exception to this is when I was able to acquire a piece of gear at an extraordinary price (which means I put my money up front and had a paid demo).

My latest purchase (Bryston BDP-1 and BDA-1) happened only because I was able to hear the combo in my system first. Even though the pair has been and continues to receive great reviews, I wouldn't have pulled the trigger if a very nice AC member didn't bring his BDP-1/BDA-1 combo over to my house and allowed me to directly compare it to my previous digital front end.

George

[James Tanner]

Hi Dave,

Good points and I feel for the consumer that has to purchase blind.

The way I meant the 'DEMO IS EVERYTHING' to be taken was more in the context of listening first... talk later. I find that a lot of products have a great story but when you actually listen to them they are disappointing to say the least. So I have adopted a philosophy which I believe works best for me. If I go to a show or a customers home or a reviewers home and hear their system and that system sounds good they now have credibility in my eyes and I will tend to take opinions offered by them in the future as valid opinions. If the reverse is true then no amount of pontificating on the virtues of a specific system or component has credence for me.

james

[bjski]

4bsst/2,7bsst/2,bda,bdc,bdp,bat32se,senn650,iqube headphone amp,shure530,legacy focus se speakers,denon receiver,blue ray, monster subwoofer,morrow cables,bryston speaker wire. Of course some of the equipment offer 30 day audition.....but that means the dreaded shipping. Of course I can audition all the tv's I want.

[S Clark]

My major purchases have been both by demo or extensive reading.  I spent hours listening to both the GR-Research LS6 and LS9 speakers before deciding on the LS9s. For my Dodd Battery Preamp, Gary put his prototype in my system and I was sold after 30 seconds.  My Twisted Pear Buffalo dac, and my Virtue Piano was purchased from internet buzz, as was my used Moscode 401HR.  My latest purchase was a Schiit Bifrost Dac- which is my first real leap of faith, but not major bucks.  Cables were bought with trials, or second hand.  In the first case, you are guaranteed value, in the second, you can usually get most of your money back on resale.
So, for me, the demo is still important.  For example, my days of buying any type of cables based on reviews is over.  They are just too system dependent. 

[Elizabeth]

I was able to demo my last large purchase locally.
The Magnepan 3.6s and Bryston pre and amp was sold at a local dealer.
I doubt I would have been willing to make such a large purchase without a solid demo. Several hours alone with no interruptions, twice.
Certain sound areas are absolutely critical to me being happy with gear, and if they are wrong, and i spent $20,000. and it sucked, i would go hang myself.
So I would have to say, for a large purchase, i would make the effort to hear what i want to buy.
I do buy some used stuff, and naturally I cannot hear it first, but used is pretty much a buy and sell at the same price, so aside from the hassles, it is not such a big problem.
So, my suggestion to those unable to demo, is to buy primarily used gear. Then the failures to live up to the hype are ameliorated by being able to sell for about what you paid, if the stuff does not work out.

[Phil A]

It's true that the retail industry is much changed.  I do have a local dealer that will let me take things home (the store is closed Sunday and Monday so if I go there before closing on Saturday I can return it lunch time on Tuesday).  My system is to the point that I don't feel the need to upgrade, but if I do consider an upgrade, I want to hear it.  If I can't hear it, I can live without it.

[RLL1]

Virtually everything I own, or have owned, in the last 5 years, was purchased sight unseen. I live in a city with a population in excess of 350,000, yet there are only two high end audio dealers. This limits the product lines that are available, and in my experience, in-store demo equipment is limited as well. The thought of actually bringing something to your home for a demo, would be nothing more than fantasy.

I rely heavily on online reviews and owners forums.

Rick

[BrysTony]

Virtually everything I own, or have owned, in the last 5 years, was purchased sight unseen. I live in a city with a population in excess of 350,000, yet there are only two high end audio dealers. This limits the product lines that are available, and in my experience, in-store demo equipment is limited as well. The thought of actually bringing something to your home for a demo, would be nothing more than fantasy.

I rely heavily on online reviews and owners forums.

Rick

I completely agree.  In theory a demo would be a necessary step in purchasing a piece of equipment but in practice it is impossible for most of us.  Audio shops are few and far between and most have limited inventory in their stores.  I was in a good audio shop not long ago to audition a pair of Thiel 2.4s, a speaker that I am interested in.  They were hooked up to a NAD M3 Integrated Amplifier and a NAD M5 CD Player.  While listening to some familiar music, the salesperson said to me, 'That NAD amp does a good job, doesn't it?"  I told him that the system that I was listening to sounded pretty good but that I didn't have a clue what each piece in the chain was contributing to the overall sound because I had never heard any of the components and that the ambient noise from the highway outside really didn't help either.  Unless you can listen to a component in your system in your home, I think a demo adds little value.  Reputation of the brand along with information gleaned from on-line forums like this one is what most have to depend on.

Tony

[Phil A]

Part of the problem is that retailers can't carry everything in every brand.  The one particular dealer that will let me try things at home carries a lot of a particular brand that is not my cup of tea.  In the past I have tried things sight unseen.  However, as noted, I really like my system and unless I can hear something that I feel makes an improvement (and is within my budget), I'm happy to be a customer or potential customer, but I'm not going to be a guinea pig.  I've had people even selling stuff on Audiogon locally a couple of times and asked if I could at least hear it in their system.  In both cases they actually brought the pieces to my house so I could listen.  One initially said no and then after getting a bunch of lowball offers decided it was worth it to have a serious potential buyer in the mix.  I don't mind being a guinea pig for something not too pricey every now and then.

[neekomax]

Ironically, the one part of my current system that I did get a chance to hear before I bought, is the one that I'm least happy with, and will be replacing pretty soon. Those are my Definitive Technology BP8020 floorstanders, by the way. I heard them in the store, but ordered them months later as used/open box. I've never been able to get them to sound good enough for my tastes.

On the sight unseen side... let's see, I started with a Peachtree Audio Decco DAC/pre/amp, which I got based on specs, features, and online reviews, and only then a refurbished model, so that it didn't set me back too much. I like it. I still think it's got a great set of features, I never hear of a product that does everything it does at its price. I use its DAC and preamp stages.

Then I bought a used Acurus solid state 100 watt amp from Echo Hi-Fi online, also based on reviews and specs, and based on the $300 price tag. It's a good amp. It is neutral and has the right amount of power, IMO.

Finally I got a used Marantz universal SACD/CD/DVD player on ebay. It was cheap ($150). I thought all players must sound vaguely similar, and Marantz has a name. This one was a mistake. The sound isn't great, and it turns out it doesn't digitally output SACD signal, only CD, which limits its usefulness. When I went back and read reviews after the fact (which I didn't do when I originally bid on it), they mentioned that the audio quality was lacking. Lesson learned. Luckily it was with my cheapest piece of gear.

So I agree, in this day and age, you've got to be able to research your way into what you want. And, in my case, buy used/refurb. Then, if it's not what you want, out it goes. Think of it as a rental  .   

[mrhyfy]

unfortunately many of us are forced to buy based on reputation from an internet retailer.

[bjski]

Ordered a BPD-1 and remote from a dealer. When the BDP arrived there was no remote Called Bryston and they said they never received the order for the remote. If I picked the unit up from the dealer the issue could be address in the store. Now I'm playing phone tag.

[PRELUDE]

Hi Dave,

Good points and I feel for the consumer that has to purchase blind.

The way I meant the 'DEMO IS EVERYTHING' to be taken was more in the context of listening first... talk later. I find that a lot of products have a great story but when you actually listen to them they are disappointing to say the least. So I have adopted a philosophy which I believe works best for me. If I go to a show or a customers home or a reviewers home and hear their system and that system sounds good they now have credibility in my eyes and I will tend to take opinions offered by them in the future as valid opinions. If the reverse is true then no amount of pontificating on the virtues of a specific system or component has credence for me.

james

I agree, and that is how I bought my Bryston amps. First I did not have any but I went to the friend's house and after 3 to 4th time of listening I bought 2 4BST and a pair7BST then sold them all and replace them with SST.

[zybar]

Hi Dave,

Good points and I feel for the consumer that has to purchase blind.

The way I meant the 'DEMO IS EVERYTHING' to be taken was more in the context of listening first... talk later. I find that a lot of products have a great story but when you actually listen to them they are disappointing to say the least. So I have adopted a philosophy which I believe works best for me. If I go to a show or a customers home or a reviewers home and hear their system and that system sounds good they now have credibility in my eyes and I will tend to take opinions offered by them in the future as valid opinions. If the reverse is true then no amount of pontificating on the virtues of a specific system or component has credence for me.

james

Spot on James.

George

[SoundGame]

Ordered a BPD-1 and remote from a dealer. When the BDP arrived there was no remote Called Bryston and they said they never received the order for the remote. If I picked the unit up from the dealer the issue could be address in the store. Now I'm playing phone tag.

The BIG question of truth here was did you negotiate for the remote to be included in the price you paid - if you did - you're owed the remote.  If you didn't, well it's a shame that you were not clear on whether the remote was included or not but yuz gots ta pay - nothing is free.  All the best with it - either way. 

[Laundrew]

I cannot imagine the circumstance where I would make a major audio purchase without first listening to the equipment in question. I agree with Elizabeth, it would be quite a "leap of faith" to spend thousands or in some cases, tens of thousands on equipment that you never demo'd. This could easily have disastrous consequences.

I vividly remember some audio equipment that received excellent reviews and sounded terrible (to my ears) when I sat down in front of it - I was actually shocked. This is another reason why I place any credibility into what the so-called-experts have to say in any audio reviews. I believe that the most difficult issue in purchasing audio equipment is locating a great dealer and then everything else seems to fall into place.   

Be well...

[95Dyna]

I bought the following items without a demo:

- 7B SST2's
- BP26/MPS2
- Esoteric X-05
- VPI Classic
- Benz Micro Wood SL
- Wire World Silver Eclipse SC's and IC's

Would not under any circumstances buy a pair of speakers without a demo.

[bjski]

I negotiated......all is well,Bryston is to send me a new one. The point is everything would have been done in the store and not by phone or email. Shame on me. My local dealer stopped carrying Bryston. I purchase my first 3b from them followed by 4b,and 4bst. Now I purchase all my Bryston equipment online by an authorized dealer. I've been a Bryston customer from 1984. I am not hesitant to by there equipment online because of knowing the build quality of their products, warranty and customer service but if I were a newbie I certainly want a demo.

[jjc1]

I can honestly say that the only 2 pieces of equipment I have purchased without a demo are the BDP1 and BDA1. I first read about the BDP1 in the mags when James introduced it at one of the audio shows. It seemed to make sense right from the start since I was tired of Redbook CD sound even though I had a fine CD player and had just bought a new turntable (ClearAudio Performance) which I was really getting into. I had my CD player up for sale but my CD library was large and I didn't want to just forget about all that music. So the BDP1 made a whole lot of sense. And without  a demo I ordered it along with the BDA. Never made a better choice!
I am also lucky to have a great dealer only 15 minutes from my office so it's easy to run over and demo. I've become quite friendly with them and they know my tastes in equipment and music and can steer me in the right direction even though they don't have every piece of equipment to listen to. Recently I have been demoing a pair of Vandy Wood Quattros and I am strongly considering buying the demos.