Seating Distance from LS.

kingdeezie · « **on:** 16 Aug 2011, 10:02 pm »

I have a pair of LS-6's that I have spent a lot of time and money on getting to sound their optimal. I have upgraded the crossovers, gotten amps that synergize, and I feel I am so close to getting them to sound awesome...

There is this indescribable grunge or grain that is always present; like a small amount of distortion. I have power conditioners, power cabling, isolation devices, but there is just the smallest amount there.

I feel like it might be my brain hearing some ill effect of room acoustics, or perhaps I am sitting to close to the LSs, too near field.

I was wondering if sitting too close to the LSs could potentially cause something like this to happen, some sort of timing issue since I might not be optimally away from the speakers.

My situation limits my ability to get further away from the speakers without moving them closer to the back wall and limiting the sound stage.

Could I perhaps use diffusers behind the speakers to limit the loss of depth, but create a foot or so more distance from my ears and the line array?

Is my cause hopeless? Am I just acting ridiculous? Is the distortion or grain that I hear a subject of perhaps something else? If so, what possibly?

S Clark · « **Reply #1 on:** 16 Aug 2011, 10:13 pm »

It would help if we knew more about your set up. Could you list your system in your profile, and post some pics of your room in your gallery.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #2 on:** 16 Aug 2011, 10:32 pm »

That doesn't sound like a speaker related issue. It sounds like an issue with your gear. Please tell us what you are using. And any pics of your room will really help too. There certainly could be some room related issues.

kingdeezie · « **Reply #3 on:** 16 Aug 2011, 10:36 pm »

I added my system here to get a look at my gear...

Ill post some pictures hopefully later today when I get home from work in a couple of hours.

I would appreciate any help.

playntheblues · « **Reply #4 on:** 16 Aug 2011, 10:40 pm »

King, being an owner of 2pair of LS 9's with no issues what so ever I feel the issue must be happening before the speakers and the speakers are just playing what is being feed to them. try to track it down, is it coming from both speakers or just one? Etc. I use anti cables and had hum once, I move the inter connect away from a power cord and it was fixed. Let us know what you are using and what you have tried, we will get it.
Kind regards,
Guy

kingdeezie · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Aug 2011, 11:45 pm »

I thinks I am miscommunicating here.

The distortion I hear is not something that is specific, or blatantly obvious, it is just like a general grain that I hear, a thin layer of distortion over the music.

I'll see if I can get some pictures up soon.

playntheblues · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 12:06 am »

King we understand, it just sounds like it,s coming from the amp., preamp, DAC or something else upstream.

S Clark · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 12:53 am »

When moving my LS9s around trying to find the best room location, I would hear a lessening of detail, reduced sound stage and imaging, but never a distortion. This doesn't sound like a speaker issue. Can you try another source? Maybe hook up to your AV receiver, taking the amp and pre out of the circuit.

kingdeezie · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 01:10 am »

Here are some quick pictures I took with the sh*tty iPhone 4 Camera.

The picture of the chairs is the listening position. Obviously I know that it is bad that I am right against the rear wall. I have no options here.

I know it might not be the speakers, which is why I was asking if the distance from the array would have any bearing on response.

This distortion might not be distortion at all.

I was thinking that it could be the amplifier. I am using new production EH tubes, and I think that maybe they just might be crappy sounding.

The problem is that the amplifiers have twenty power tubes, and replacing them with something better, even new production like a Psvane of Treasure tube would cost 1500-2000. Quite extensive if its not the issue.

I do not have any other source that could compare to my Perfect Wave DAC. The only other thing would be a cheap DVD player or something, and that would present a whole new set of problems and not really narrow down my issue; just create more.

It could be the tubes in my preamp; perhaps they are old and are becoming noisy; or just plain suck. I was thinking thing might be the case as well.

I just wanted to deal with the room, getting treatments, and perhaps dealing with speaker placement or the like.

I am guessing from the answers I have gotten so far, that the speakers are not the culprit....

Could it be a cabinet resonance perhaps?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 03:06 am »

I have used that DAC and found it to be pretty good. I did not like their transporter that matches, but it lookss like you are using their DAC/Bridge so I am guessing that you are feeding the DAC with data from a PC. That should be fine.

The amps you are using use a LOT of tubes. That adds up and does bring up a measured distortion level, but the audible effect should not be grainy but a little smeared or softened. And in the mid-range, maybe in a good way.

Are any of those cables that you listed in your "man cave" Silver coated Copper? Interconnects especially?

kingdeezie · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 01:21 pm »

Danny,

Nothing is silver coated copper.

The JW audio cables are cyro'd solid copper. The Jungson Golden Dragons are gold/copper and are used on the DAC.

Could it be the tubes perhaps? I am using EH tubes. Could they inherently be grainy, or something to that effect??

Would the acoustics or speaker interaction be a problem?

playntheblues · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 02:26 pm »

Danny is the expert, however I would think the preamp tubes would be more suspect, plus it would be a lot cheaper to try.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 02:33 pm »

When we crammed LS-6's into the 13 by 19 room at RMAF one year, we had to really treat the room heavy behind the speakers, and set the bass management to the lowest setting to even out the bottom end.

Your room treatment (by comparison) is pretty minimal.

You might try borrowing some different gear from someone to see what the effect is. Amps and pre-amp would be a good place to start.

You might see if Trug or Gary Dodd has a tube buffer that you can try (basically a pre-amp). That might be a good starting point.

johnzm · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 07:47 pm »

hey man! thats some sexy amps

did you ever notice the grain with the pass labs amps? i can for sure say that in the past i have had a grainy sound that was effected by swapping tubes. i will admit that until i had upgraded the tubes, i did not notice the grain. u had a chance to move all your gear closer to the speakers yet?

check your pm

corndog71 · « **Reply #14 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 08:58 pm »

I'm not a fan of EH tubes. I've found them to be kind of boring/flat sounding. I really like Valve Art tubes. They're cheap and sound great.

What tube types are you using?

kingdeezie · « **Reply #15 on:** 18 Aug 2011, 03:14 am »

Quote from: johnzm on 17 Aug 2011, 07:47 pm

hey man! thats some sexy amps

did you ever notice the grain with the pass labs amps? i can for sure say that in the past i have had a grainy sound that was effected by swapping tubes. i will admit that until i had upgraded the tubes, i did not notice the grain. u had a chance to move all your gear closer to the speakers yet?

check your pm

Checking PM John. I didn't notice the grain so much with the Pass, but it is hard to say. The Pass presented a whole different form of dissatisfaction. The Pass was very transparent and dynamic, but it was very sterile.

Quote from: corndog71 on 17 Aug 2011, 08:58 pm

I'm not a fan of EH tubes. I've found them to be kind of boring/flat sounding. I really like Valve Art tubes. They're cheap and sound great.

What tube types are you using?

EL34's, I will have to check the valve art tubes and seeing if they sell a Valve Art tube. I have been looking at replacements, but the cost is going to be staggering for something that might burn out within a couple of thousand hours.

I heard the SED Winged C EL34s are good, but they jumped to 90 dollars a matched pair. 10 pairs is 900 dollars.

corndog71 · « **Reply #16 on:** 18 Aug 2011, 03:37 am »

www.tubesandmore.com has the Valve Art EL34 for $48/ matched quad.

kingdeezie · « **Reply #17 on:** 18 Aug 2011, 03:50 am »

Have you had any issues with the Valve Art Tubes?

I get a little weary of chinese made tubes, there was a period of time where JJ tubes were actually causing amplifiers to blow up, catch fire, and damage speakers...

corndog71 · « **Reply #18 on:** 18 Aug 2011, 02:08 pm »

Nope.

I've had more problems with JJ, EH, Sovtek, and Svetlana tubes.

I didn't even know Valve Art tubes were Chinese until I had been using them for a year. They've sounded consistently good and I haven't had one go bad on me yet. In my old rebuilt Dynaco ST70 they sounded fantastic.

In my recently built EL84 amp they sound better than I could've imagined.

Skiman · « **Reply #19 on:** 18 Aug 2011, 05:28 pm »

King-If I remember correctly, don't you live south of Denver? I'm in Golden, and have a Pass Labs X-1 pre (in HT bypass) for my 9s. I could take it out and run down to your place and we could swap it in your system and see what it sounds like. Not trying to 'convert' a tube guy to SS, just to see if your mult-tube preamp is the source of your problem. Didn't we have a running joke a few years ago about who would get the first 9s from AV123?