Trying to break the two grand barrier

Duke · « **on:** 1 Aug 2011, 12:13 am »

I'm working on a design that would follow the same basic format as my most recent spate of speakers (12" prosound woofer + waveguide-style horn), but using a less expensive woofer and compression driver to bring the price down. Unfortunately a box that can really take advantage of what this woofer has to offer is still pretty darn big, and that's where most of the manufacturing cost lies.

I think I can offer an attractive alternative here by drawing from recent experience on the prosound side, where price is usually very much a factor, and where my only hope of competing is to offer something that sounds better at a reasonable price because I have to rely on word-of-mouth. The basic concept will be similar to the Rhythm Prism, though the specifics (including shape) will be different. The soaring price of neodymium magnets has driven the cost of the Rhythm Prisms up significantly, so this new model will use ceramic magnets (which do not allow the same cabinet geometry because the magnets are a lot larger).

So the preliminary specs are 94 dB, 8 ohms, in-room bass to the mid to lower 30's, and under two grand (not including shipping).

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #1 on:** 15 Aug 2011, 04:25 pm »

Have you considered selling speakers completely unfinished, as Acoustic Research did in the beginning?
I believe they offered bare plywood versions for those willing to put the time in.

JLM · « **Reply #2 on:** 15 Aug 2011, 04:39 pm »

How about panelized (pre-cut) unfinished cabinets?

Duke · « **Reply #3 on:** 15 Aug 2011, 09:11 pm »

Thanks for the ideas, Russell and JLM. Very interesting... I will look into it.

Duke

roscoeiii · « **Reply #4 on:** 15 Aug 2011, 09:14 pm »

Flat pack, assemble your own cabinets would also nicely decrease shipping costs I'd imagine.

ttan98 · « **Reply #5 on:** 24 Aug 2011, 12:36 pm »

Hi,

Times are tough, you need to design a new pair of speakers to meet the challenge of the times which is very price sensitive. I haven't heard your speakers before because I live in Australia!. From what I can read from your speakers' specs and words/reviews from your customers, your speakers sound really good/great.

I am sure your new pair of speakers should sound equally good after you have finished with them.

I don't understand the market in the States so I cannot give you any advice. All the best.

youngho · « **Reply #6 on:** 26 Aug 2011, 02:31 am »

One of my great audio-related lifelong regrets is not having been able to afford one of Duke's eaarlier models, like the Stormbringer or an earlier iteration of the Jazz Module...

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #7 on:** 26 Aug 2011, 02:41 am »

I have exactly the same feeling regarding his original Jazz Module. Duke was much too modest and he himself steered me away towards another speaker - which has since been replaced by my current K&H 0300s.

youngho · « **Reply #8 on:** 26 Aug 2011, 03:05 am »

Quote from: Russell Dawkins on 26 Aug 2011, 02:41 am

I have exactly the same feeling regarding his original Jazz Module. Duke was much too modest and he himself steered me away towards another speaker - which has since been replaced by my current K&H 0300s.

Duke, please let us know if there's ever a special deal for "unrequited lovers" like us...

Duke · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Aug 2011, 05:17 am »

Ttan, youngho, and Russell, thank you very much.

Youngho, if "unrequited lover" might mean "launch customer"... shoot me an e-mail!! My launch customers always get a bit of a price break as a reward for their leap of faith.

* * * *

On another subject (hey it's my thread, I can derail it if I want, right??), as of right now (August 25, 2011) I have a pair of Prismas entered into a six-way tournament against five pairs of high-end midfield studio monitors. The competition is taking place in the recording studio of a Grammy-winning record producer. Even factoring in the cost of outboard amplification, the Prismas are roughly half the price of their rivals (or more precisely, roughly half the average price of the three whose identities I know). Unfortunately I won't score any points for being less expensive; the customer has deep enough pockets that that's not an issue.

Anyway the early indication is that the Prisma will win its first deathmatch, against a seven grand pair of active studio monitors from a company you've all heard of. One down, four to go.

Duke · « **Reply #10 on:** 15 Nov 2012, 08:28 am »

Well obviously some time has passed since I first started working on an "under two grand" speaker project. I wasn't happy with the results of my prototyping, so the project got back-burnered for a while. But I did learn a few things along the way, so it wasn't a total waste. Anyway I'm back to working on the under-two-grand speaker project, and will be trying out several different prosound-based woofer options over the next few weeks.

I realize that the competition in the "under two grand" ballpark is rather ferocious, but that's the way it ought to be. Makes us all try our best.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #11 on:** 19 Nov 2012, 10:40 pm »

Is the Jazz Module a thing of the past?

JohnR · « **Reply #12 on:** 19 Nov 2012, 10:42 pm »

Duke, have you considered smaller drivers (10 or even

?

Duke · « **Reply #13 on:** 20 Nov 2012, 01:34 am »

Quote from: jimdgoulding on 19 Nov 2012, 10:40 pm

Is the Jazz Module a thing of the past?

I could still do the Jazz Modules, but I'd use different drivers. Might change the box up a bit as well. maybe bevel the rear corners (as seen from above).

Quote from: JohnR on 19 Nov 2012, 10:42 pm

Duke, have you considered smaller drivers (10 or even ?

Yup!

One of my top priorities is getting the radiation patterns to match up fairly well in the crossover region, when using a constant-directivity horn or waveguide. I can smooth out the frequency response in the crososver, but the radiation pattern is pretty much fixed by the drivers I choose. Depending on which horn or waveguide I use, different woofer sizes and/or configurations move in and out of favor. For instance, an MHM format with dual 8" or 10" woofers above and below a rectangular waveguide-style horn (like the one I'm using in the Rhythm Prism and its cousins) looks good, but for a single 8" or 10" woofer I'd want to go with a high frequency section having a wider pattern in the vertical plane.

Duke · « **Reply #14 on:** 10 Jan 2013, 05:23 am »

At this point it looks like the two-grand speaker will be 95 dB (1 watt/1 meter) with a tube-friendly impedance curve, probably ballpark 14 ohms or so north of the bass impedance peaks.

kgcdc · « **Reply #15 on:** 10 Jan 2013, 10:03 pm »

Hi Duke,

Sounds interesting. Floorstanders, I assume? And pre-assembled, not kits?

For my two cents, far more DIY people can do cabinetry (esp. assemble flatpacks) than can match yr crossover chops, so a flatpack for DIYers that has a lot of yr experience and talent embedded into driver choice, crossover design, and cabinet design is hugely appealing.

Cheers,
Kendall

Rclark · « **Reply #16 on:** 10 Jan 2013, 10:38 pm »

How can you have already arrived at a price when you haven't designed it yet. Seems really arbitrary.

Russell Dawkins · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Jan 2013, 10:46 pm »

That's done all the time!

The "bean counters" tell the designer the target price point and the designer does the best he can do within that very fundamental constraint.

In this case, Duke is the bean counter.

....and the designer, the builder, the marketing department...

jtwrace · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Jan 2013, 11:00 pm »

Quote from: Russell Dawkins on 10 Jan 2013, 10:46 pm

....and the designer, the builder, the marketing department...

........and one of the nicest guys in audio.

Duke · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Jan 2013, 02:53 am »

Quote from: kgcdc on 10 Jan 2013, 10:03 pm

Hi Duke,

Sounds interesting. Floorstanders, I assume? And pre-assembled, not kits?

For my two cents, far more DIY people can do cabinetry (esp. assemble flatpacks) than can match yr crossover chops, so a flatpack for DIYers that has a lot of yr experience and talent embedded into driver choice, crossover design, and cabinet design is hugely appealing.

Cheers,
Kendall

Floorstander for sure, might also do a stand-mount version.

This one probably won't end up as a kit, as I'll probably be doing something inside the cabinet that I'll want to keep to myself for now. An unusual internal damping technique, useful in some cases, and this is one of them.

I just don't know about doing flatpacks... time-wise I'm spread pretty thin as it is, and don't really want to deal with storing/packing/shipping/trouble-shooting-assembly-of flatpacks. That's a lot of time commitment for something that I really wouldn't make much money off of. So when I do offer a kit, it will probably just be the crossover, drivers, and plans, and hopefuly it will be adaptable to flatpacks available from Parts Express or DIY Audio Group.

Quote from: Rclark on 10 Jan 2013, 10:38 pm

How can you have already arrived at a price when you haven't designed it yet. Seems really arbitrary.

As Russell said, I'm the bean-counter who decrees the price point... and knowing the cost of the drivers, estimating the cost of the crossover, and estimating the cost of the enclosures (based on experience), I'm fairly confident I can come in just under two grand a pair. Why that arbitrary number? Because I think it's a psychological landmark, beyond which there are probably a lot fewer potential customers.