Can the Super-V get even better?

Danny Richie · « **on:** 29 Jul 2011, 11:32 pm »

I have lived with the Super-V for some time now, and it has been my all time favorite for handling anything you throw at it amazingly well.

But lately I have had some ideas to try and I wanted to see if I could make a slight improvement to them. As I think of all the long listening periods with them and what I might wish for if I could wish for more, I think I'd like to make them slightly smoother and soften them just a little at the lower end of the tweeters range.

My room is also pretty well controlled compared to most. So they may tend to be a little brighter in some rooms especially with the tweeter being open to the front and back. This makes the hit of a cymbal sound like it is really right there in the room with you, especially with the dynamics these things have. I can just imagine though that in a brighter room the hit of a cymbal (even a real one) could be a bit much. So a slight softening might work well for most people.

So I tried one of the Jupiter HT flat stacked film caps. There is only one small cap used on the tweeter in the Super-V so trying some really top level caps would not be overly expensive.

I had a 2.7uF cap value in the circuit already, but the closest Jupiter cap value was a 2.2uF. So I knew it was going to be close.

I took some measurements and found that the 2.2uF value pulled it down a little more than I had in mind near the crossover region. So I added a small inductor to the woofer circuit to shape its response to better match the tweeter. It also shifted phase slightly, but in a good direction.

The result was still a smooth response and the upper ranges were down around 1db to about 12kHz and no change above it.

This cap sounds very detailed but also very smooth. The composition is a flat stacked, Aluminum foil & paper with beeswax. The leads are 20awg Silver, and it has been cryo treated.

Just A/B listening with one speaker right now sounds very good. But nothing is burned in either. I think I will build out a pair of these with the Jupiter caps.

I don't know if a Platinum by-pass with these will be really needed or not. I'll try it some later.

The caps are $75 each.

For any Super-V owners that would like to try these out and report back your findings, I'll throw in the small inductors needed for the woofer circuit for free.

And for those of you on the fence that wants to give these a try with your orders that are about to ship, let me know. It will be a $150 upgrade to get these caps.

jtwrace · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Jul 2011, 11:37 pm »

Danny

What other values are available from Jupiter?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Jul 2011, 11:56 pm »

Quote from: jtwrace on 29 Jul 2011, 11:37 pm

Danny

What other values are available from Jupiter?

They have several different types of caps, but in this type there is only a 1.0, 1.5, 2.2, 3.3, 4.7, 6.8, 8, 10, 12, and 15uF.

I got them from Sonic Craft, but they do not have them on their web site yet for this type. You can see them here: http://www.partsconnexion.com/capacitor_film_jupiter_ht_flat.html I don't think that they have the voltage ratings correct on those listed there though.

ebag4 · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 Jul 2011, 11:57 pm »

Danny,
Two questions:

Do you only recommend these if you feel your treble is a little bright or are they good for other reasons as well?

For the V1 we would use something in the neighborhood of 4.8uF, correct?

Best,
Ed

Danny Richie · « **Reply #4 on:** 30 Jul 2011, 12:42 am »

Ed,

The characteristics of this cap should match well with the Titanium tweeters used in these.

And a 4.7uF value is ideal for your V-1's.

ebag4 · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Jul 2011, 12:45 am »

Thanks for the info Danny, much appreciated.

Best,
Ed

Jonathon Janusz · « **Reply #6 on:** 30 Jul 2011, 01:31 am »

Pardon the maybe silly question, but could a similar result be achieved by rolling different bypass caps? Keep the main sonicaps the the signal path for their detail, but put something a little softer in as a bypass to just take the edge off so to speak?

Danny Richie · « **Reply #7 on:** 30 Jul 2011, 02:18 am »

Quote from: Jonathon Janusz on 30 Jul 2011, 01:31 am

Pardon the maybe silly question, but could a similar result be achieved by rolling different bypass caps? Keep the main sonicaps the the signal path for their detail, but put something a little softer in as a bypass to just take the edge off so to speak?

You could get all kinds of different results from different types of caps. The trick is to find one that doesn't go in the wrong direction. These are known to be a smooth and lush sounding cap that still maintains a fast discharge rate. So it also remains clean.

Jonathon Janusz · « **Reply #8 on:** 30 Jul 2011, 06:07 am »

Thanks for the reply, Danny.

I think I may have worded my question poorly, but your answer along with the description of what you did with the above capacitor and associated crossover adjustment kind of pieces together an answer to my question.

This really sounds like one of the places in crossover design where science transitions to art in regards to deciding how you want to get wherever you want to go with a particular crossover design.

nickd · « **Reply #9 on:** 30 Jul 2011, 07:20 pm »

Make the Super V tweeter better

While I don't doubt Dannys crossover tweeking skills at all, I think it might be easier (and maybe better) to balance the room dampening and or system. I have a heavy padded velvet curtain behind my Super V's and the floor is carpeted. In my room the 2" tweeter will smoke anything I have heard under $30K and quite a few of them over that amount too.

The amp I use in the summer is CARY SA-200.2 , it's not famous or stupid expensive and contains not a single tube. I have highs and mids to die for. I might consider damping the room a little more or up grade up a hard sounding amp or front end before changing crossover parts. IMOP.

That said, If Danny would have come up with this idea 3 weeks ago, I would have installed them.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #10 on:** 31 Jul 2011, 12:01 am »

I did some more listening. Yep, it's smoother. I like it. I am using the Jupiter caps in the next pair that I am putting together.

nickd · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Aug 2011, 07:28 pm »

Hey Danny,
Any chance we could see a measurements of frequency response and phase of the Super V using the new Jupiter 2.2uF cap and coil and the Standard 2.7uF Sonicap?

For the record, I'm not a hardcore measurements guy just curious where in the frequency range the changes occur and how measurable they are.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #12 on:** 1 Aug 2011, 07:42 pm »

This is tested on one of the Lamborghini Yellow ones that went to the RMAF show last year.

Most companies post measurements on a 10db scale. So this one will give you a little better perspective.

nickd · « **Reply #13 on:** 1 Aug 2011, 10:52 pm »

Thanks Danny,

looks like a gentile "Tone tilt" although I can see the peak reduction at 2.5k and 3.7k helping on hotter mixes and in reflective rooms. I will look forward to your thoughts after you have lived with the Jupiter caps installed for a few weeks. There is a part of me that thinks a V cap or Dueland cap even at the original value might be percieved in a similar " more relaxed sounding" at the ear kind of thing. I'll have to save my pennies (or "franklins" in that case) and check it out. I look forward to hearing your pair in October.

Rclark · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Aug 2011, 09:08 am »

That is a neat looking capacitor. It looks like an old clock. I'd always thought that, because of your track record of opinion, that Sonicaps bypassed with platinums was the only game in town. This makes trying different caps seem ok now.

mono-tubeleosis · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 02:53 pm »

This could be a good thing for me Danny. Since I'm in Las Vegas and it's 8 million degrees in my garage right now, I haven't been able to finish my build (it's killing me not being able to get these finished yet).

I was only able to get the H-frames done before the heat arrived (probably the end of Sept before I can get back on it). My room is not ideal (no carpeting or room treatment yet). I have several reflection points too. I'm guessing you're going to suggest I make this upgrade.

Larry M

Danny Richie · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 03:38 pm »

Quote from: mono-tubeleosis on 17 Aug 2011, 02:53 pm

This could be a good thing for me Danny. Since I'm in Las Vegas and it's 8 million degrees in my garage right now, I haven't been able to finish my build (it's killing me not being able to get these finished yet).

I was only able to get the H-frames done before the heat arrived (probably the end of Sept before I can get back on it). My room is not ideal (no carpeting or room treatment yet). I have several reflection points too. I'm guessing you're going to suggest I make this upgrade.

Larry M

You can always get them up and playing then decide if you want them to go in that direction.

And BTW, it is REALLY hot here too. We went 52 days in a row with highs over 100. And we went about 60 days with no rain at my house.

<- That's me right there.

jn316 · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 07:10 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 17 Aug 2011, 03:38 pm

And BTW, it is REALLY hot here too. We went 52 days in a row with highs over 100. And we went about 60 days with no rain at my house. <- That's me right there.

Wow!

Best part of Colorado...the summer temps.

"Rocky Mountain high, Colorado" My 11-month old daughter will only stop crying when we put the John Denver CD in the car...pretty funny!

gooberdude · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 08:57 pm »

Its not fair!

I talked to a buddy in denver yesterday & happened to mention the brutal st. louis summer (even for st louis). He just said 'its been nice here' & we changed the subject.

Tyson · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 Aug 2011, 09:08 pm »

Normally it's dry in CO in the summers, but we've had quite a bit of rain this year and every thing is green and the temps are very nice. Usually in the 80's. And the nice part is that it's not humid at all, so it only feels like 80's in the sun, it's more like 70's in the shade.