[Jonathan]

Hey guys,
I've hit one of the those periods in time when I'm just not very happy with the sound of my system (De Capos with upgraded tweeters/caps, Unico integrated amp w/phono, Pioneer PD-65 CD, Sony NS500V SACD, NAD 533 with Ortofon Super OM20, Kimber PBJs and homebrew cat5 speaker cables).

My specific complaint is that the system really only sounds enjoyable on very well recorded music or recordings that have relatively sparse instrumentation (i.e., small jazz combos, chamber music, etc.). Anything that isn't recorded well or is too complex becomes overly bright and gets fatiguing when listening for any length of time.  Overall, the system is just too unforgiving, and I find myself listening to it less and less (been using my HD-600 'phones instead).

At this point, I'm pondering ideas about selling off parts of the system and using that cash to finance the replacement stuff (I just don't have any extra cash to throw at my hi-fi right now).  I'm pretty sure that I'm going to keep my De Capos (my sense is that I have not yet heard them at their best) and I have put a new amp/preamp or integrated amp on the top of my list of things to try--perhaps something all tubes (the Unico is a 'hybrid' but it's not particularly "tubey" sounding, at least to these ears).

 I'm wide open to suggestions. Again, the goal is to make the system more "listenable" with a wider variety of music, not just the best sounding stuff.

Thanks for your input!

Jon

[Rocket]

Hi jon,

buy a nice large wall rug and place it behind your speakers.  should improve the sound at a cheap price.

regards

rod

[sdk]

I think you need to upgrade both your digital sources.  I own the NS500 and quite frankly, it is mediocre at best and that's when it's modified. When I replaced the NS500 with a Stan Warren modified DVP-S9000ES, my system took a large jump in performance.  Your system will never sound as good as it should if the source signal is sub-par.  God, I sound like a Linn advocate or should I say "advokate".

[Paul L]

Agree with Sdk.  Not just that, the cable need upgrade too.  Obvious the De Capos are the strongest item in your system but the better the backend the higher possibility to reveal the front end weekness.

[melville]

I think that Modwright will upgrade your PD65.  This is a unit with a lot of potential.  Fortunately, you have Pioneer's great loading tray.

[kwl]

As we have discussed privately in the past, amplification makes a huge difference with the DCs.  I have been through a whole series of integrateds that while sounding good, just didn't have the detail we all crave without being grating over time.  I have auditioned in my home or owned the Sim I5 and I3, Classe CAP-151, Coda Unison 3.3, Bel Canto Evo2i, Plinius 8100, Rogue Tempest Magnum, Audiomat Arpege and Prelude.  The only one on the list that I really liked was the Audiomat Prelude Reference.  However, because of the motor-driven volume control (and unwillingnes to leave it on 24/7), I couldn't integrate it into the family HT system.

I just purchased the Plinius 9200 and this may be the ticket!  There is just something about the Plinius sound that works well with the DCs.  The 9200 seems to overcome some of the deficiencies of the 8100 that I auditioned several times (9200 has better bass, more refined, more "body", no hardness when pushed).  I know that it pushes past your budget, but it may be worth saving up for; I got mine new from an authorized dealer for ~$2700.

I would also agree with the other posters that everything you do will make a difference that can be easily heard through the DC's.  Now that I have the Plinius 9200, my DC center channel (driven by a Marantz 8200 receiver) sounds out of place.  So, now I'm in the market for a better center channel amp!  It's all an expensive process...

Best of luck!

[Terry]

I am going to take a slightly different approach and strongly suggest that you dump the DeCappos. No speaker is perfect and the particular trade offs that have been designed into this speaker may not be compatible with your equipment or tastes. I fooled around with the DeCappos for months: speaker positioning, room treatments, cables etc. before I finally got them to where they are now - quite excellent. But the journey was not particularly easy. I agree with the observation that the DeCappos can be ruthlessly revealing, which is often another way of saying they can be bringht, and I think you have to ask yourself if you are prepared to put up with this characteristic. Were I in your shoes, and given your stipulation that you do not want to spend any money, the decision to replace the speakers would seem obvious.

[sdk]

Given the wide diversity of opinions regarding what approach you should take in reconfiguring your system, I'll recommend the easiest and cheapest thing possible: find a good dealer in your area and start borrowing gear to determine where you should be concentrating your efforts.

I would first try a number of different CD players to see what that would do for the sound. Then I would try some different cables. In looking at what you are using, I think your cables might be a weak link in your system.  You could then try some different amplification, but I really think your Unico integrated is pretty good. I think it's a stronger link in your component chain than either of your digital sources and your cables.

Speakers are the most emotional purchase of your system. I think you should always buy the speakers that grab you the most. After that, it's a matter of assembling your upstream components to get the most out of your speakers. If the De Capos are not floating your boat right now, you should ask yourself if you've ever heard them sound the way you want. If the answer is yes, then you should go forward and experiment with components, accessories and placement to get the most out of them. If, on the other hand, they've never really captured you the way some other speakers have, then you might take the suggestion of the previous poster and look for different speakers.

[Emil]

Jonathan
I had a pair of Decapos at one time and sold them for the very same reason. I mean, do you really want a clear window into the recording when the majority of todays music is recorded with little or no regard to things that we audiophile value? How much Mapleshade or Chesky can you stomach? Dont get me wrong. Like you said, when thing were just right, it was wonderful but finding  well recorded music and especially well recorded music that I liked became more and more frustrating.
I gave up. Sold off everything ( Decapos, atmasphere s30, EVS digital,analysis plus cables) and bought a Naim nait 5, Naim CD5 and Neat Mystiques speakers. Sure, they're colored and dont measure worth a damn but whether its a Chesky or some badly recorded pop CD, they never fail to entertain. When I buy music now,  I no longer say to myself "I wonder how this is recorded" because now it  doesnt matter.
Free at last !:mrgreen:
Audition other speakers ,and if you could, with you current system and choose the one that gets you excited about music--well recorded or not.

[reyneman]

It's like a vicious cycle- the more resolving your system becomes, the more aural thrills it provides you, the more it points up the deficiencies in your recordings. I now look for speakers with musical attributes rather than the approved audiophile attributes.

Kinda lets you know why all those magazine writers / evaluators gravitate to a few select discs. JM2C...Ray

[Jonathan]

I gotta laugh to keep from crying about the answers I got here (by the way, thanks to all who decided to reply). I guess I'm not surprised by the lack of consensus. In truth, I can't recall a single question I've ever asked that didn't get a similar response: get new cables, get a new amp, get new speakers, upgrade your digital sources, etc. So, there you go.

Needless to say, in a perfect world, I would actually have access to all of these things and could try them out, but since there are no real hi end dealers in the area (even if there were, I have a hard time imagining they'd be interested in letting me try out their gear, especially in light of the fact that I'm likely to buy in the used market if/when I'm ready to go) this is not an option.

I have to admit that I'm most intrigued by the "try new speakers" advice (since I believe that aside from room placement and treatments it's speakers have made the most obvious difference in the sound of my system), but I have a hard time thinking about ditching the DeCapos until I've heard them with better ancillary gear.

I guess for now I'm just going to sit tight and keep my ears and eyes open for ideas. Thanks again to those who replied to my question.

Jon

[Rocket]

Hi Jon,

Try the wall rug first you will be impressed at the improvement in sound quality.

regards

rod

[mcrespo71]

Don't you have a friend that has MG12's?  Try those out in your system.  I stand by my statement that aren't as good as the De Capo I's (I used to own MG12's), but I'm sure they are more forgiving of inadequate equipment (i.e., your CD player/cables).  The De Capo I's are most certainly not a good speaker for those who are financially strapped- you can't put all your $ in the speaker and then cheap out on the other stuff, but boy do they keep improving when you upgrade things.  It's stupid easy to hear improvements/degradations from gear changes.

Michael

[Jonathan]

Hi Michael,
I guess I take a bit of umbrage to your characterizing my CD player and cables as "inadequate" and saying that I "cheaped out" on the rest of the system.   While clearly not the best that money can buy, everything in my system represents gear that is generally considered to be decent sounding; the PD-65 and Kimber PBJ's  retailed (in their day) for right around a thousand bucks, and a quick Internet search for comments about these products will tell you that there are still many people who think that they're both pretty good values, particularly the PD-65.  I assume that some of the mega-buck stuff out there might sound better, but I still have a hard time imagining that there isn't "magic" to be had without spending thousands of dollars. With people raving about products like the Panasonic digital receivers and the Toshiba 3950/60 CD player, I still have hope. And as you suggested, the DeCapos are speakers I can grow into when I finally have the funds to invest.

As for the Maggies, my friend ended up buying a pair of 1.6s, but they're not up and running yet (his new house isn't going to be ready to go for another week or so), so I have not had a chance to hear them in a real world environment. I did run into a local guy with a pair for sale who wants to get together to compare them to my DeCapos. So who knows--maybe we'll end up swapping speakers.

In any case, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

[mcrespo71]

guess I take a bit of umbrage to your characterizing my CD player and cables as "inadequate" and saying that I "cheaped out" on the rest of the system.

I didn't mean you cheaped out on your system, but I've heard both your CD player and your cables and agree they are good value, but they are not in the same performance class as your Unico and De Capo's IMO.  The cheap out comment wasn't even aimed at what you did, but to those who maybe have like 3.5K to spend and then buy the De Capo's- not the best move IMO.  You could put together a more musically satisfying system for 3.5K NOT using the De Capo's as your speaker IMO.  

In any event, I didn't mean to insult you.  If you can, try some audiophile friends CDP's or cables.

Michael

[Paul L]

I agree with Michael.  Most people overspent on speakers and don't realise how "inadequate" their front end and cabling is.   No offense her Jonathan.  PBJ is only the entry level cable and I now have a better entry level cable to put it on my recommendation list.  The Silver Streak and Select stay though.  The PD65 offers good transport.  The DAC section is a lot to be desired.  You can try to put a better DAC to see what happen.

As a matter of fact, most of my local business are on source and cables because other dealers have already sold more than enough speakers to customers.  I am more into fixing their problem them selling to them.

[Rocket]

Hi Jon,

The pioneer is a great cdp to modify.  I have a relatively inexpensive pioneer pds507 cdp, i installed a g&d clock,iec socket and damping mods.  It is an excellent performer for the price and was a whisker less refined than my stock perpetual technologies p3a dac.

G&d are now defunct and don't manufacture preducts anymore.  I would suggest you contact diy hifi (thru audio asylum) and you could condiser buying a tentclock for $119us including shipping.  Have someone install it  and you will be impressed with the sonic improvement which won't cost a lot.

Your ic is fine i'm not a believer in spending mega bucks as i believe they are overpriced imo.  

Btw try the doonah test behind your speakers.  The doonah should be about 1 foot about floor height, it should also be above your speaker height and cover their width.  

regards

rod

[Jonathan]

Thanks again for keeping this a lively discussion, guys, and I'm sorry if I came off as oversensitive about my system. It's just that up to this point,  the differences I've heard when comparing digital sources and cables have been noticeable, but not amazing improvements. So, it's sometimes hard to imagine that upgrades to this end of the system will result in huge positive changes (but I AM trying to keep an open mind about this).  

 I keep coming back to the question of why does it seem so hard to get my system to sound good with a wider range of recordings? I've read posts over at the Asylum where guys claim this never happens to them and that their better gear makes all of their recordings sound better. To be honest, I find this a bit hard to believe, as it is so contrary to my own experiences.  

I can think of many CDs that I own (Beatles, Frank Zappa, Todd Rundgren, old Ella Fiztgerald or Billie Holiday recordings, to name just a few) that are not soncially perfect but are musically wonderful. Now, these CDs sound great in my mediocre car stereo, but pretty awful under the "aural microscope" of my home system. Does this mean we can conclude that my car stereo is better than my home system?

And if it's all about digital sources and my cables, why is it that I when I listen to my Sennheiser HD-600s using the same CD player and cables I don't have the same problem? Certainly, the headphones are very revealing of bad recordings, but 99% of the time I still find myself able to enjoy the music without being completely distracted by the imperfections in the sound.

Doesn't this bring us back to speakers and room interactions as the likely culprits?

Finally, a note to Rocket: what the heck is the doonah test?

[mcrespo71]

The original Bel Canto DAC 1 is a smooooooooth sounding DAC without losing detail.  You can find them cheap used- if it doesn't work, then just resell it.

Michael

[Emil]

Jonathan
You did say that you were happy with your system when listening to well recorded music. Do you think upgrading you source and amp will allow you to enjoy music that is not? If anything, a better source and amp will only magnify the warts.
May you find peace

Emil