[SteveFord]

Instead of doubling up MMGs (as I'm thinking about doing), I wonder how an MMG on the bottom with a Mini Maggie up top would sound?  Someone needs to try this out to see if it would blend or stick out like a sore thumb.

[josh358]

Instead of doubling up MMGs (as I'm thinking about doing), I wonder how an MMG on the bottom with a Mini Maggie up top would sound?  Someone needs to try this out to see if it would blend or stick out like a sore thumb.

Some people add a small tweeter to line sources. But you're opening up a can of worms when you do that. For one thing, the drivers will have different radiation patterns, so you'll only be able to balance the speaker for a single listening distance. For another, does the Mini Maggie tweeter go low enough to meld with the MMG woofer? I think the crossover of the MMG is about 1000 Hz. You could make them three ways, using the Mini Maggie midrange and tweeter, but then I think you're going to have power response problems in the far field. You could use the MMG's tweeter and cross over a bit higher up, but then you're going to have two crossovers in the midrange, or else be crossing to the Minis so high that you'll lose some of the sonic advantages of the ribbon. I do know that you can cross the 2.x/r ribbons over at 1 kHz, but if you're going to get a 2.x/r, you might as well use it as a 2.x/r . . .

[Robin Hood]

Assuming I use two DWM woofers, what amp would be better for just the DWM woofers?

1. Vincent Audio SP-331 Hybrid Amp 300wpc for $1200
2. Wyred 4 Sound ST-1000 1140wpc for $2000

Does the higher wpc provide better control of the woofer and does that mean that the woofer will sound clearer and go deeper?

Does using hybrid amp impart more musicality and depth to the woofer than using a solid state amp?

I imagine the best approach for me would be to try both amps and return the one I don't like. However in some ways I find that approach unfair to the dealer and any subsequent buyers of the amps so any recommendations and experience with these amps would be appreciated.

[josh358]

Only two amp specs are likely to affect woofer quality: power, and damping factor. How much power you need depends on your listening habits and the distance you sit from the speakers. In and of itself, power won't have an effect on woofer control or extension. Damping factor does affect those things, but most amps have a damping factor high enough that electrical damping is determined primarily by the impedance of the driver's own voice coil, so unless you use an amp with an unusually low DF it shouldn't make a difference. For that reason, I wouldn't waste any money looking for finesse here, in fact, many people use big pro amps on their woofers.

[SteveFord]

I think that either amp would be overkill.
I was using a little Harman Kardon PM640 integrated with the volume knob way down to blend it in with my MMGs (which were being driven by big VTLs).

[josh358]

It would definitely be overkill in the near field.

[Robin Hood]

I think that either amp would be overkill.
I was using a little Harman Kardon PM640 integrated with the volume knob way down to blend it in with my MMGs (which were being driven by big VTLs).

I am pleased to read that you feel that either amp would be overkill.  Someone suggested that I read a thread posted by Satie and it seems that he was saying Maggie bass panels need 1000-1500 wpc minimum.  Someone else has a tag line that I think says something like "Maggies, because you can never have too much power".

[josh358]

The question is at what distance? If you're using the bass in a big system, sure, that's a pretty good figure for those who like to listen loud (but not everybody). I know one guy who has 2500 watts on his Tympani IV bass panels! But if they're under your desk and they're right in front of you, you're never going to use all the juice.

[SteveFord]

There's an indepth review on the Mini Maggies in the current (May/June 2012) issue of TAS if you haven't seen it yet.
I was using a loaner DMW with MMGs and my results were similar to the author's: you want the DMW centered and below the "regular" speakers.
The article is a two part one with part one being a desktop system and part two being a small room system; for using it as a small room system the author recommends two DMWs (not centered).
I only had one DMW to try out but it didn't do much being stuck off to the side.  Centered it was really good in my room.

[josh358]

There's an indepth review on the Mini Maggies in the current (May/June 2012) issue of TAS if you haven't seen it yet.
I was using a loaner DMW with MMGs and my results were similar to the author's: you want the DMW centered and below the "regular" speakers.
The article is a two part one with part one being a desktop system and part two being a small room system; for using it as a small room system the author recommends two DMWs (not centered).
I only had one DMW to try out but it didn't do much being stuck off to the side.  Centered it was really good in my room.

I haven't seen it yet, downloading it now. (I have an online subscription and for some reason they don't always send out notification emails.) Is that the same article about using it in small rooms that I read online?

I can see that you'd want to center the Mini Maggie if you're using one, with a 300 Hz crossover you're going to be able to localize it. Obviously not a problem with two of them, and if they're against the wall in the position they recommend, you should get more bass.

[Robin Hood]

There's an indepth review on the Mini Maggies in the current (May/June 2012) issue of TAS if you haven't seen it yet.
I was using a loaner DMW with MMGs and my results were similar to the author's: you want the DMW centered and below the "regular" speakers.
The article is a two part one with part one being a desktop system and part two being a small room system; for using it as a small room system the author recommends two DMWs (not centered).
I only had one DMW to try out but it didn't do much being stuck off to the side.  Centered it was really good in my room.

It is probably natural that the TAS author recommends two DWMs (not centered), close to the side walls and midrange/tweeter panels. IMO what may sound better is two centered DWMs (one on the floor and the other just above).

The raised DWM feeds the two satellite midrange/tweeter panels, as in the normal Mini Maggie system. Using another stereo amp, the DWM on the floor is powered separately with it's own volume control.

IMO the above configuration will provide superior and more bass since both halves of each DWM will be powered. The DWM on the floor can be powered to just short of speaker distortion, if you wish.

What I have not tried is using two DWMs (not centered), close to the side walls and midrange/tweeter panels using two stereo amps. For this configuration the first stereo amp would drive the outer halves of the left and right DWMs and midrange/tweeter panels. The second stereo amp and volume control would drive the inner halves of the left and right DWMs.

The only other thing to add is a sub,or even better would be stereo subs, for subwoofer frequencies of 20-40 Hz.

[fredgarvin]

While I think a planar desktop system would be great, ala Monsoon, the Maggie, at $1500 is not practical for me. The emi Tech system was $500 but I can't seem to track them down these days to see if it's still in production.



http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue10/eminenttechnology.htm

[josh358]

I assume the Eminents are out of production, but not sure, you should check with Eminent Tech to make sure. I have Monsoon 2000's, BTW, with the smaller Eminent drivers. As much as I like them, they don't hold a candle to the Mini Maggies, which are beyond amazing. You know that "put 3.7's on your desktop" ad? It's not an exaggeration, that's how good they are.

[SteveFord]

The Listening Room called and said that they have the Mini Maggies in stock so I hope to find out for myself this Sunday.
That should be fun.

[kevin360]

Hey Josh,

When you listened to the Mini Maggies, how close were you to them? There's something interesting about being really close to these speakers. As I've mentioned, my MMG/REL hybrids are in my bedroom and I sit very close to them - I can lean forward and touch them. I really like them this way. It prompted me to move 4' closer to the 3.7s - from 13' to 9' (which is how far they are off the front wall right now - and the speaker cables pretty much take the crow's path (can't get but maybe another inch)). I like that too - a lot. I bet working at a desk with a pair of Mini Maggies is friggin' heavenly. 

Instead, my former office became my bedroom and my work chair became a recliner while the desk became an equipment rack (with a TV doubling as a computer monitor). I don't drag work home anymore. Hell, I barely work - 3 days a week so I can buy new music and play around with audio gear and a few cars. The problem is that a house overhaul is tapping me out - starting on our 30 year old flooring now.

If I had somewhere to put them, I'd be all over the Mini Maggies. It seems like a brilliant product. You know; I could use them instead of these 'monstrous' MMGs in the bedroom. 

Give us a full report please, Steve!

I'm curious how well they work without the desk, but still quite close...or, I could build a new cabinet (I'm getting better at doing that stuff - of course, buying more tools helps).

[SteveFord]

I still think the DMW on the foot of the bed and the small Minis suspended from the ceiling would be the ticket.
Take that, Hugh Hefner, he probably listens to a Bose Wave Radio in bed, the schlub.

[josh358]

The Listening Room called and said that they have the Mini Maggies in stock so I hope to find out for myself this Sunday.
That should be fun.

That's great. Just make sure they're properly set up, when they were first introduced some dealers were just throwing them on a shelf or using crap electronics and they didn't sound good. I gather that most dealers now understand how to set them up properly, e.g., on a desk.

[josh358]

Hey Josh,

When you listened to the Mini Maggies, how close were you to them? There's something interesting about being really close to these speakers. As I've mentioned, my MMG/REL hybrids are in my bedroom and I sit very close to them - I can lean forward and touch them. I really like them this way. It prompted me to move 4' closer to the 3.7s - from 13' to 9' (which is how far they are off the front wall right now - and the speaker cables pretty much take the crow's path (can't get but maybe another inch)). I like that too - a lot. I bet working at a desk with a pair of Mini Maggies is friggin' heavenly. 

Instead, my former office became my bedroom and my work chair became a recliner while the desk became an equipment rack (with a TV doubling as a computer monitor). I don't drag work home anymore. Hell, I barely work - 3 days a week so I can buy new music and play around with audio gear and a few cars. The problem is that a house overhaul is tapping me out - starting on our 30 year old flooring now.

If I had somewhere to put them, I'd be all over the Mini Maggies. It seems like a brilliant product. You know; I could use them instead of these 'monstrous' MMGs in the bedroom. 

Give us a full report please, Steve!

I'm curious how well they work without the desk, but still quite close...or, I could build a new cabinet (I'm getting better at doing that stuff - of course, buying more tools helps).

I first listened to them from right behind Mark Winey's desk. Here's a shot, you can see that I was maybe 3 feet away. That's the kind of nearfield listening they're designed for, and at that distance, they really do sound like 3.7's -- not point-for-point identical (for one thing they don't have the same image height) but comparable, which is to say amazing. I'm still blown away by the big speaker sound that comes from them, I mean, objectively, the 3.7's are just as good, but it's amazing to hear that kind of sound coming from speakers so small. Anyway, after that, I tried listening from further back, at the rear of his office, just to get a feel for how they'd sound farther away, and the answer is great, though not quite as good as they did up close. As everyone says (well, Dawnrazor, anyway), the tweeter start to beam vertically at that distance but that shouldn't be a problem if you're sitting down. Mark and I also tried taking the monitor off the desk and it did improve the center image a bit. We also tried moving it a bit forward of the speakers and that was also a bit better.





Near field listening definitely has its advantages (I like my MMG's up close too, though I find it gets kind of claustrophobic). I did read somewhere about some research that found that the optimal listening distance for speakers is about 8', but that of course is for speakers designed for far-field listening and I think you have to balance all the factors -- bass response, distance from walls, etc. I have read that the minis want to be back from the front wall, which doesn't surprise me, I'd expect them to be similar to any dipole in that respect -- the more that rear wave reflection is delayed, the more depth you'll get in the image.

BTW, having listened to both the MMG's and Minis up close, I'd say there's no contest, the Minis win hands down. I'm sure I'll end up with a pair eventually, once I can come up with a suitable excuse.

[josh358]

PS -- they can be used on stands, there are holes in them to facilitate that. The critical thing is to keep the woofer and mid/tweeters in time alignment. I imagine you'll lose some bass extension if the woofers aren't in a footwell (or against a wall, but I assume you want to keep the woofer centered if you're only using one).

[Robin Hood]

PS -- they can be used on stands, there are holes in them to facilitate that. The critical thing is to keep the woofer and mid/tweeters in time alignment. I imagine you'll lose some bass extension if the woofers aren't in a footwell (or against a wall, but I assume you want to keep the woofer centered if you're only using one).

This must be something new. I had to drill holes in the base of my DWMs to mount them on stands. The midrange/tweeter panels were small enough for me to use Blu-tac to secure them to stands.

For whole room applications, the Minis sound incredible but they sound even better with subs and/or an additional DWM woofer that is powered by a separate amp. That should be no surprise since bass from panel speakers in a medium to large room require more surface area and more amp power.

IMO the reason why many people love Tympanis and other biamped Maggies is to get significantly more bass without overloading the room with highs and mids that are glorious as is.

I guess with the new .7 Maggies that are not easily biamped, one could add several DWM woofers with decent low cost powerful amps. Of course that gets expensive as each separately powered DWM will cost between $1200-2000. If I had only bought the Tympani IVAs. Won't Magnepan consider bringing them back into production as an anniversary special?