2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??

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TJHUB

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #20 on: 29 Jun 2011, 04:27 pm »
Hehehe.....isn't it always the case that we think what we have is great until we hear something much better. :lol:  After my speaker purchase 4 months ago, I can't afford to hear anything better for awhile. :wink:

Late last year I did try SVS's sub EQ (AS-EQ1) but was dissappointed with the results.  At first I just thought I wasn't use to "flat" bass, but the low bass just seem to be missing.  Some of my favorite classical recordings that have bass much like I remember hearing in live performances sounded downright anemic with the EQ.  So I ended up returning the sub EQ to SVS.

Of course there's also the question of preference.  It very well could be that I don't like a flat bass response.

Perhaps when I have the funds and the motivation I might try one of the EQ's that allows you to customize the curves to one's preference.

In your opinion, would the best performance boost value come from EQing my existing sub or upgrading the sub itself?  I don't want to derail this thread, so please PM me (or we could start a new thread).

BTW, to answer your last question, I seem to get the best response by setting low pass to 80hz and high pass to 125hz.  This gives me a nice smooth transition from the HT2-TL to the sub.

I often wish I wouldn't hear better.  It would save me a lot of money and stress.  It's tough when you have friends that are in the hobby and contribute to your hearing better all of the time.  :roll:

As I don't believe this discussion is derailing this thread, I'll make some additional comments.  I honestly think any system could benefit from a sub.  I think the OP should go the sub route without question, but that is me...

I am a firm believer that one can and does develop a preference with sound.  For example, many people like a bloated bass sound.  For movies, bloated is fun, for music, it is unacceptable to me.  I think we get used to various sounds and can certainly be trained to enjoy properly tuned systems.  If someone doesn't want that, fine by me.

I'm not at all familiar with the SVS AS-EQ1.  I've heard it's a very nice piece of gear, but it is too much money for me and you have too little control.  I agree with you that the best option is an EQ you can customize the sound to your preferences. 

Thus far my favorite EQ is a Behringer Feedback Destroyer (1124P).  The price is low (~$100.00), it has 10 parametric filters, and it's very flexible.  The only issue with it is that it's ugly.  It's not a piece of gear you proudly display in your rack.  I'm currently using a Velodyne SMS-1, and it's ok.  I'm thinking about moving back to the Behringer, but I'm not sure.

Anyway, we could take any further stuff to PM.  I'll PM you later on whether to upgrade your sub or not.  I will just make a quick comment that only YOU know the answer to that question.  If you're happy with how your sub is working, I'd say stay happy and keep it!  :thumb:

Big Red Machine

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #21 on: 29 Jun 2011, 04:46 pm »
Blasphemers!!! :guns: :uzi: :flame:

Saturn94

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Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #22 on: 29 Jun 2011, 05:38 pm »
I often wish I wouldn't hear better.  It would save me a lot of money and stress.  It's tough when you have friends that are in the hobby and contribute to your hearing better all of the time.  :roll:

I guess I'm lucky I don't have any audiophile friends (my friends are just average folk who think my system is stunning! :thumb:).  However, these forums can be very dangerous! :lol:

Quote
.....I honestly think any system could benefit from a sub.  I think the OP should go the sub route without question, but that is me...

+1

My HT2-TLs sound better with my sub than without.


Quote
I am a firm believer that one can and does develop a preference with sound.  For example, many people like a bloated bass sound.  For movies, bloated is fun, for music, it is unacceptable to me.  I think we get used to various sounds and can certainly be trained to enjoy properly tuned systems.  If someone doesn't want that, fine by me.


Agreed.

Quote
I'm not at all familiar with the SVS AS-EQ1.  I've heard it's a very nice piece of gear, but it is too much money for me and you have too little control.  I agree with you that the best option is an EQ you can customize the sound to your preferences.

Again I agree.  I might have kept it if it allowed the user to customize bass curves.  Wouldn't it be great if you could just plug in the curve you wanted and the unit would automatically calculate and apply the appropriate settings. 

Quote
Thus far my favorite EQ is a Behringer Feedback Destroyer (1124P).  The price is low (~$100.00), it has 10 parametric filters, and it's very flexible.  The only issue with it is that it's ugly.  It's not a piece of gear you proudly display in your rack.  I'm currently using a Velodyne SMS-1, and it's ok.  I'm thinking about moving back to the Behringer, but I'm not sure.

That's good to know.  I'll have to check that out.

Quote
Anyway, we could take any further stuff to PM.  I'll PM you later on whether to upgrade your sub or not.  I will just make a quick comment that only YOU know the answer to that question.  If you're happy with how your sub is working, I'd say stay happy and keep it!  :thumb:

I am happy with my sub (since I've not heard better yet :wink:), so maybe I should leave well enough alone (yeah right! :o).  I look forward to your PM.

Nuance

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #23 on: 29 Jun 2011, 06:07 pm »
To my ears my SVS 16-46PC+ (powered vented cylinder sub) integrates very well with my HT2-TLs.  No sub EQ, btw. :wink:

That's awesome!  I've had my SongTower's and DIY subs in three rooms now, and not until my current one was I able to remove the PEQ from my system.  The other two rooms had large peaks in the midbass.  TJHUB came over to my home and we experimented with subwoofer placement, and the second spot we tried followed the REW 24dB slope octave curve perfect, so I was happy to remove the Behringer 1124p.  I am very fortunate, and it sounds like you are as well.  But as TJHUB mentioned, sometimes we just don't know until we hear better.  In your case, I'd try working with what you have, adding an EQ device that allows more customization.  Also, using a piece of software like REW, in which you can actually see what's happening, is pretty crucial IMO.  The only problem with REW is it is advanced, and many people get scared away.  I'd be more than happy to help you (or anyone) complete the initial setup, though.  Once that is completed it's as easy as pie to use.

@ BRM - LOL!  :lol:  Well, I won't blaspheme God, but I'll happily do it concerning the 2-channel/subwoofer debate.  After all, audio is just audio, and is based on subjectivity more than anything.  An active design may be the best solution for the purist IMO.  After all, if you (we) are supposedly purists, wouldn't that mean we need to take the room out of the equation to be taken seriously?  What the room can do to the overall sound quality is far more detrimental than adding a subwoofer output and sub, no?

P.S.  This is a good conversation, so let's keep it public unless the OP requests otherwise. 

Saturn94

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  • Posts: 1217
Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #24 on: 29 Jun 2011, 07:42 pm »
That's awesome!  I've had my SongTower's and DIY subs in three rooms now, and not until my current one was I able to remove the PEQ from my system.  The other two rooms had large peaks in the midbass.  TJHUB came over to my home and we experimented with subwoofer placement, and the second spot we tried followed the REW 24dB slope octave curve perfect, so I was happy to remove the Behringer 1124p.  I am very fortunate, and it sounds like you are as well.  But as TJHUB mentioned, sometimes we just don't know until we hear better.  In your case, I'd try working with what you have, adding an EQ device that allows more customization.  Also, using a piece of software like REW, in which you can actually see what's happening, is pretty crucial IMO.  The only problem with REW is it is advanced, and many people get scared away.  I'd be more than happy to help you (or anyone) complete the initial setup, though.  Once that is completed it's as easy as pie to use.

@ BRM - LOL!  :lol:  Well, I won't blaspheme God, but I'll happily do it concerning the 2-channel/subwoofer debate.  After all, audio is just audio, and is based on subjectivity more than anything.  An active design may be the best solution for the purist IMO.  After all, if you (we) are supposedly purists, wouldn't that mean we need to take the room out of the equation to be taken seriously?  What the room can do to the overall sound quality is far more detrimental than adding a subwoofer output and sub, no?

P.S.  This is a good conversation, so let's keep it public unless the OP requests otherwise.

If I decide to give sub EQ a serious shot, you and TJHUB will be the first people I contact for help. :green:
 
Better yet, wouldn't the two of you enjoy a nice relaxing vacation in SE VA helping a fellow AC member fine tune his system......... :thumb:   If you need help I'll be out back by the pool. :lol:

Kinger

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #25 on: 29 Jun 2011, 07:49 pm »
Very good read.  I've had many PM's with Nuance about the possible integration of a sub to my ST/RT's, but my tube preamp choice (AVA T8) along with my severe lack of knowledge to all of this EQ/measurement stuff keeps me thinking that I'll eventually just purchase HT2-TL's for the added low end I'm looking for even though it's probably the more expensive option.

TJHUB

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #26 on: 29 Jun 2011, 07:50 pm »
Blasphemers!!! :guns: :uzi: :flame:

Whatever... :roll:  Some of us aren't ordering SoundScape's you lucky bastage!  :green:

TJHUB

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #27 on: 29 Jun 2011, 07:59 pm »
Very good read.  I've had many PM's with Nuance about the possible integration of a sub to my ST/RT's, but my tube preamp choice (AVA T8) along with my severe lack of knowledge to all of this EQ/measurement stuff keeps me thinking that I'll eventually just purchase HT2-TL's for the added low end I'm looking for even though it's probably the more expensive option.

I understand EQ/measurement thing holding someone back.  I struggled my way through REW a few years ago, and now I pray every day that my laptop doesn't die.  Why?  Because I'm going to have to struggle through setting up REW again!!  :x

However, your AVA T8 preamp shouldn't hold you back.  I run a 2-channel tube preamp that has no bass management whatsoever, and I have a solution that is working perfectly for me.  You could even use a Velodyne SMS-1 with your preamp to integrate a subwoofer.  I've done it that way in the past.  PM me if you're interested at all.


sarge_in

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #28 on: 29 Jun 2011, 08:51 pm »
As we are talking about preamps and bass management, how would one switch between movies and music for the sub with a preamp like T8? Manually pull and change cables?

Nuance

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #29 on: 29 Jun 2011, 09:05 pm »
If I decide to give sub EQ a serious shot, you and TJHUB will be the first people I contact for help. :green:
 
Better yet, wouldn't the two of you enjoy a nice relaxing vacation in SE VA helping a fellow AC member fine tune his system......... :thumb:   If you need help I'll be out back by the pool. :lol:


Yes, yes we would.  Just let me know when you'll be mailing the plane tickets to me. :D

As we are talking about preamps and bass management, how would one switch between movies and music for the sub with a preamp like T8? Manually pull and change cables?

Unfortunately, yes.  You'd need a preamp with HT bypass.  There are dozens out there, but none offered from AVA that I am aware of.  Wouldn't something like this work, though?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71464

TJHUB

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #30 on: 29 Jun 2011, 10:12 pm »
As we are talking about preamps and bass management, how would one switch between movies and music for the sub with a preamp like T8? Manually pull and change cables?

I just saw that Frank FINALLY gave in and is offering home theater bypass on his preamps.  It's only a $100.00 upgrade.  I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Frank just put his preamps back on my list of consideration for the future.  I saw some have sent there existing preamps back for retrofit.  It works with the preamp powered off too!

 

sarge_in

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #31 on: 30 Jun 2011, 03:58 am »
Unfortunately, yes.  You'd need a preamp with HT bypass.  There are dozens out there, but none offered from AVA that I am aware of.  Wouldn't something like this work, though?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71464

Yep, that's what I thought about the AVA pre-amps.
OK, even if one used the manual way, does it have a high-pass for the main speakers? I didn't see any info about that too. The questions might be more suitable for AVA forum I guess :)

I just saw that Frank FINALLY gave in and is offering home theater bypass on his preamps.  It's only a $100.00 upgrade.  I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Frank just put his preamps back on my list of consideration for the future.  I saw some have sent there existing preamps back for retrofit.  It works with the preamp powered off too! 

Yes, that's certainly good but still a bit of hassle for the sub, and I am also not sure about HP for the mains.

Any other decent tube pre-amps out there with these features?

TJHUB

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #32 on: 30 Jun 2011, 04:03 am »
Yep, that's what I thought about the AVA pre-amps.
OK, even if one used the manual way, does it have a high-pass for the main speakers? I didn't see any info about that too. The questions might be more suitable for AVA forum I guess :)

Yes, that's certainly good but still a bit of hassle for the sub, and I am also not sure about HP for the mains.

Any other decent tube pre-amps out there with these features?

There would be no HP filter on the AVA preamp even after adding HT-bypass.

The best solution I've found for preamps without bass management (like mine) is using FMOD's as a high-pass filter for your mains.  I use them and they work great.  They are also the least degrading filters I've been able to find. 

Search "FMOD" at Parts Express. 

sarge_in

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #33 on: 30 Jun 2011, 05:08 am »
There would be no HP filter on the AVA preamp even after adding HT-bypass.

The best solution I've found for preamps without bass management (like mine) is using FMOD's as a high-pass filter for your mains.  I use them and they work great.  They are also the least degrading filters I've been able to find. 

Search "FMOD" at Parts Express. 

Wow, thanks!  Had no idea such products even existed! Am curious how they perform compared to electronic crossovers in pre-amps that do have HPF, like the Parasound 2100 or AV receivers?

TJHUB

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #34 on: 30 Jun 2011, 01:18 pm »
Wow, thanks!  Had no idea such products even existed! Am curious how they perform compared to electronic crossovers in pre-amps that do have HPF, like the Parasound 2100 or AV receivers?

You're welcome.  They are cool little filters and work well.  One of the best features of these little guys is that you don't need to use another pair of interconnects with them. 

I ran a 2100 for over a year.  The FMOD is a very similar filter and performs nearly identically to the filters built into preamps like the 2100.  For ~$26.00, they are worth a try to see for yourself how they work.  Just know that you need to know the input impedance of your amp to properly size them.  If you need help, let me know.


advanced101

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #35 on: 30 Jun 2011, 09:21 pm »
I just picked up a pair of the 50hz high pass, im pretty interested in the quality.  I will post my thoughts.

TJHUB

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #36 on: 30 Jun 2011, 09:26 pm »
I just picked up a pair of the 50hz high pass, im pretty interested in the quality.  I will post my thoughts.

Do you know what the input impedance of your amp is?  I'm looking forward to your thoughts.


advanced101

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #37 on: 30 Jun 2011, 09:41 pm »
8.3k, will the FMOD have any issues?

TJHUB

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #38 on: 30 Jun 2011, 10:11 pm »
8.3k, will the FMOD have any issues?

The FMODs are affected by your amp's input impedance.  The 50Hz FMOD will function more like a 100Hz filter, but I wouldn't be concerned as it's a shallow roll off of -12db.  They should work great. 

FYI for everyone:

A 50Hz high-pass FMOD will be:

50Hz with amplifier input impedance >= 97k
70Hz with amplifier input impedance ~ 22k
100Hz with amplifier input impedance <= 10k



sarge_in

Re: 2-ch stereo system ... Salk selection??
« Reply #39 on: 1 Jul 2011, 04:21 am »
You're welcome.  They are cool little filters and work well.  One of the best features of these little guys is that you don't need to use another pair of interconnects with them. 

I ran a 2100 for over a year.  The FMOD is a very similar filter and performs nearly identically to the filters built into preamps like the 2100.  For ~$26.00, they are worth a try to see for yourself how they work.  Just know that you need to know the input impedance of your amp to properly size them.  If you need help, let me know.

Not a bad option to try at all, once I get a pre-amp :). Will ping you if/when I get there.

I guess the only missing piece is a sub switcher, and manual is not an option for the family.  Any other options for this?
What will happen if I conenct the line level out from AVR and speaker level out from pre-amp to the sub (SongSub) simultaneously, taking care to have only one running at a time? And what happens if both are left on by mistake (e.g. while switching)?