[wgscott]

I would assume that you need a monitor connected to each zone's Apple TV to be able to select that zone's music.  Or is there a way to select different music for each zone with an iPod/iPad/iPhone?
 
I believe the Sonos can do it with one remote controller.
 
Steve

I'm living proof you don't. (I refuse to put a TV in my bedroom.)  Apple's (free) Remote.app for iPhone/iPod touch/iPad is all you need.  It gives you the album art on a nice grid on the iPad as an extra bonus, and you can have multiple devices (Apple TVs or whatever) controlled from a single iPad/iPod/iPhone.  From what I have seen, most sonos users elect to use their iPod app as the remote, rather than buy the Sonos remote.

[pearsall001]

With the Apple TV/Airport Express you will always be listening to the same music in all zones.  I believe the Sonos will let you stream different music to each zone.  There may be limitations - I can't imagine it would stream 32 different selections from the same hard drive to 32 zones without some problems.
 
Steve

Sonos will let you play different music genre at different listening volums in all 32 zones (if anyone even comes close to that many). Sonos developed it's own internal wireless network that allows it to do that. I think Sonos is by far the most functional, easy to use "whole house" music system out there.

[tvyankee]

Hello,

Here is the thing.  If you want to put ceiling speakers in then I think it's a lot better to go with a central system.  The sonos and ATv are good but it's a lot to deal with. If you want to go with 12 zones or more then it's easy to go with a nuvo or Niles. One reason why is that you might go into a zone and not have a wifi device and then you will have no control over the zone. The other you might have guest staying with you then it's a lot easier to show them how a key pad works then a wifi device. The easier you make it the better. The sonos thing is great if you want bookshelf speakers in the room and if you haven't done any wiring. Apple thing is good if you want if you want to control everything from a wifi device and no control pads in the rooms.

I have looked into these other options and there just not really as good when you get down to it. The way I'm talking about is a little more money but it gives you a lot more flexablitiy.

[wgscott]

So I guess the main limitations of ATV2 used in this way are:

1.  You are restricted to 48kHz sampling frequency (so redbook is resampled).  This could potentially degrade 44.1 and 88.2 signals, for example.  In practice, I can't hear any difference, with my Zeppelin.

2.  It uses the house wifi network.  Presumably this would limit the number of zones to something (far) less than 32 you get with sonos.  Also, if you have a lot of network traffic, you can experience dropouts (rare, but I have had one or two).

3.  It works with TVs and Movies.  (This is a limitation only in the sense that if you stream this stuff, it likely bogs down the network for additional zones).

4.  You need to leave your server computer on with iTunes open.

The main pros, in my experience are cost and ease of use, and you don't have to buy special bridges and network devises and stuff.

[srb]

So I guess the main limitations of ATV2 used in this way are:

1.  You are restricted to 48kHz sampling frequency (so redbook is resampled).

My understanding is that its optical output is limited to 48KHz maximum but will pass 44.1KHz redbook untouched, if of course you are bypassing any computer resampling such as the Windows Mixer on the Windows platform.

Steve

[tvyankee]

Hello.

The ATv is not the problem. It is a great product. The problem is if you want to use it with a bunch of airport express's. What I am talking about is the zone controller. The most important thing in whole house distro is the controller and what it is able to now and tomorrow. 

[pearsall001]

It sounds like I'm beating a dead horse but the Sonos is so simple it's almost scary. If a room doesn't have speakers all you need is the Sonos S5 speaker which has 5 built in digital amps for each of it's drivers & it flat out sounds incredible. And if you want you can take it room to room, outside by the pool, in the garage, etc., etc. If the room already has speakers you simply need the Z120 which has 2/55w digital amps built in to power the existing speakers. A simple zonebdidge or Z90 as the command module & you're good to go. The CR200 controller is a class act & you can also download the controller app to your iphone, ipad, itouch, android & there will be other devices coming along.

The control, hi-quality sound, flexibility, ease of setup & use sets the Sonos apart from all others.   

[richidoo]

Sonos is "centralized." It has a reliable fast bulletproof OS that controls the whole system seamlessly, and a reliable fast proprietary mesh network that eliminates in-wall signal and control wiring. It can sync multiple zones sample perfect. Or multiple syncs. Program alarms and shows on internet radio. Automatic updates. Free 24/7 Pandora. The flexibility and control is awesome. You can connect additional analog sources to any players, then feed that to any or all other zones. Remote control from any iPod, android, PC or mac. Every player has 2 or 4 ethernet jacks to use their mesh network for normal wired data drop.
Sincerely,
Happy Sonos shill   

[wgscott]

Hello.

The ATv is not the problem. It is a great product. The problem is if you want to use it with a bunch of airport express's. What I am talking about is the zone controller. The most important thing in whole house distro is the controller and what it is able to now and tomorrow.

I wonder if we are talking about two different things?

In my setup, I have a mac mini, which, in addition to being wired into my DAC, is on the wireless network.  I have an Apple TV2 unit in my bedroom, which I guess you would call the "client" if the mac mini is the server. 

So in other words, the mac mini plays the part of the Sonos ZoneBridge and whatever library you provide the sonos system with.

The ATV2 plays the part of a ZonePlayer 90.  I don't know what the upper limit is, but you can have many more that one.  (You can also plug an ethernet cable into it if you wanted to).

I no longer own an airport express any more; I replaced my dead one with ATV2, since it was the same price.  So, for the same price as a "bunch of airport expresses" you can get a "bunch of ATV2s", each of which can be its own autonomous zone.

If you already have a computer that can serve music with iTunes, you don't have to spend $100 on a Sonos bridge, and the ATV2 is $250 less than the Sonos Zoneplayer 90.  It lacks analogue out, so you need to use optical out or HDMI out, but you can also use it with a TV, which after all is what was intended by Apple. (Unfortunately it lacks a coax out, which the Sonos 90 has.)

So in my case I saved $350 and have the same functionality.  Add $250 additional savings per zone, and the case becomes more compelling.  I just don't have a good idea for how many zones my airport extreme wireless network could realistically cope with.  I assume it is far less than 32, but I also assume most Sonos users have 1, 2 or 3 zones.  (My mini connected to my main system I guess is a second zone).

[tvyankee]

I think I understand what you are talking about.  But even with a bunch of atvs hooked up and working you would still need a bunch of iPod touchscreen laying around in different rooms or carry yours around everywhere you went. Also the way you are doing it you could not have party mode where all zones play the same thing and if it did then you couldn't have seperate things playing in each room at the same time.  I guess what I am saying is that you could make your system work but if your putting a brand new system together in a new build from scratch I believe that it's not the way to go. 

[wgscott]

Also the way you are doing it you could not have party mode where all zones play the same thing and if it did then you couldn't have seperate things playing in each room at the same time.

I'm not sure what this means, but you can use it like a zone player or like external wireless speakers from a centralized iTunes source (like an airport express).  Not simultaneously, obviously, but you can go back and forth.

I also don't grasp why controlling these things from a single ipod touch would be any more difficult with an array of Apple TV 2s than it would be with Sonos's control software (either on their own remote or an iPod touch).  You don't need a separate one in each room in either case.  Maybe I am missing something, but I'm not heavily invested in this. 

My main point is that Apple now provides this technology that very cheaply and cheerfully provides at least a large subset of the functionality you would get with a significantly more expensive Sonos system, so it is worth at least checking it out.

[Letitroll98]

Please gentlemen, remember that this is the Cheap and Cheerful circle and no matter how much better the Sonus system may be, thousands of dollars don't fit in the circle, it's just too small, you'll break it.  And thanks to those, wgscott and others, helping the OP find his C&C distribution system.

[stigs]

Much cheaper and chearful. I have installed ATON DH44KT 4 source 4 zone system with DH46X 6 zone expansion hub in 6 homes with great success.The system is expandable to 28 zones.Google for pricing and you will see this is much cheaper than any afore mentioned systems.I have installed just about all systems mentioned.With this system independent sources can be heard in different zones.It also has digital and analog inputs.Do some research and you be surprised at the functionality vs price.I am just an AV installer and not affiliated with ATON.

[srb]

From what I can see, the ATON is designed to route 4 sources to 4 - 28 zones.  The OP, and I would assume many of us including myself, would have a single source music server.
 
If all that was needed was "Whole House Music Mode", the ATON would be competitive, depending of course on how you rate the quality of the built-in Class D stereo amplifier in the wallpads.
 
But it would not be able to choose different songs or playlists in different zones from the central single source music server, which several of the other systems can do.  In that context it seems like apples and oranges.
 
Steve

[MaxCast]

would a squeezebox radio work?
http://www.logitech.com/en-us/speakers-audio/wireless-music-systems/devices/5847
Can use it as is or add a set of powered speakers from the head phone out.

[lcrim]

Because there is an overall price restriction, this is the Cheap and Cheerful Circle, there will be problem in qualifying any system here unless it is barebones. 
I have used Logitech Squeezeboxes for a number of years and have had as many as 5 running at once , off of the same server w/o drop outs.  This does require a Squeeze Box device in each room or zone.  The price of that device is going to establish a cost bottom line but there is nothing preventing you from moving the Squeeze Box and a pair of decent quality powere speakers around your house as needed.  I have two systems running 24/7  and both are wired via hardwire ethernet but I have also added another headphone system and put another SqueexeBox in another spot and connected it via WiFi. and there was enough bandwidth to avod drops.  There are generall a few wireless laptops running as well.  I have seen posts from users having more Squeeze Boxes than that three running and it is feasible.  A pair of AudioEngine powered speakers is not an unreasonable cost to add for each station.

I don't know what the limits would be but I also have a Netflix enabled device runnig on the same network.  Running ethernet throughout is probably necessary.

Larry

[srb]

Within the Cheap and Cheerful HiFi circle, in this particular case of distributed audio, I think you have to look at each room or zone as a separate system, just as if you had an independent setup of source, amplifier and speakers in the room.
 
The cost of the Music Server, Master Controller, Wireless Bridge, etc. would be rightfully shared between the zones.  Here are some possible examples based on a 4-zone system.
 
SONOS based zones:
Music Server:  $800 (or $200 per zone)
Sonos Wireless Bridge:  100 (or $25 per zone)
Sonos Controller:  $350 (or $90 per zone)
 
SONOS S5 zone (built-in speakers)
  - Music Server: $200
  - Sonos S5:  $400
  - Sonos Wireless Bridge:  $25
  - Sonos Controller:  $90
    Total:  $715
 
SONOS ZonePlayer 90 zone
  - Music Server:  $200
  - Sonos ZP90:  $350
  - Sonos Wireless Bridge:  $25
  - Sonos Controller:  $90
  - Audioengine A5:  $350
    Total:  $1015
 
---------------------------------
 
Squeezebox based zones:
Music Server: $800 (or $200 per zone)
Master Remote Controller (iPod Touch):  $230 (or $60 per zone)
 
Squeezebox Touch zone
  - Music Server:  $200
  - Squeezebox Touch:  $300
  - iPod Touch Controller:  $60
  - Audioengine A5:  $350
    Total:  $910
 
---------------------------------
 
Apple TV (2) based zones:
Music Server: $800 (or $200 per zone)
Master Remote Controller (iPod Touch):  $230 (or $60 per zone)
 
Apple TV zone:
  - Music Server:  $200
  - Apple TV:  $100
  - Pop Pulse 1796 MKII DAC:  $260
  - iPod Touch Controller:  $60
  - Audioengine A5:  $350
    Total:  $970
 
 
Steve

[Letitroll98]

Your argument is at least reasonable Steve, on the other side, using your example, the total cost for any of the systems is between $2900 to over $4k.  Thanks for laying it out so clearly, it now makes a lot more sense to someone like me who hasn't even investigated whole house distribution systems.  But I'm still not convinced the whole thread shouldn't be moved to the Discless Circle.  As everyone has been very well meaning and helpful, I've remained liberal with this thread. 

Are there any more votes for Steve's position of costing it out per room, or should we ignore him and move on with total systems that fit under the guidelines, or should the whole thing be moved to the DC?       

[wgscott]

Well, it is neither cheap nor cheerful at this point ...

[srb]

It doesn't matter to me whether you leave the topic here or move it to another circle, but it is no less cheap or cheerful than any other < $1000 system that one would put together in a room.
 
Cheap and cheerful streaming device, cheap and cheerful amplifier and cheap and cheerful speakers - the only difference is the shared source, which was taken into consideration and pro-rated.
 
Steve