Flu vaccine in the winter??

sts9fan · « **Reply #40 on:** 22 Jun 2011, 04:15 pm »

Quote

DNA containing protein

??????

Crimson · « **Reply #41 on:** 22 Jun 2011, 05:00 pm »

The amount of disinformation being spread here is astonishing. Ignorance-based beliefs are dangerous, especially to society as a whole.

wilsynet · « **Reply #42 on:** 22 Jun 2011, 06:34 pm »

There is a minority of scientists and medical professionals that are very vocal in their opposition of vaccination in general.

While I am sure that there have been incidents of vaccination causing harm, all signs point to the medical establishment as a whole converging / has converged on vaccination as a generally good thing. If we want to call that the establishment, sure, let's call it that. But it's the establishment for a reason, and that is that it represents the consensus, majority opinion of scientists and medical professionals and researchers.

What seems unfortunate is that the professional minority, the very rare professional minority has an outsized influence on the non-professional population. At least according to this thread.

Is vaccination generally a good thing? I think so. Is it conceivable that some vaccinations may cause harm? Yes, but I think they are rare examples. Could we do a better job in verifying the efficacy of vaccination -- yes, absolutely, we can always do better and be better. Have mistakes been made? Yup, I totally believe that too.

But also, could I also die by driving my car? Yes, but the overall benefit of driving my car out weighs my perceived risk of driving. Do I believe that there is a conspiracy by the so-called establishment to reduce the overall population using genetically engineered influenza viruses and by administering vaccination? No, I really don't believe in that. And I don't believe that the attack on the Twin Towers was supported by the Executive Branch of our Government.

I'm not a medical professional, a medical researcher, or a scientist. I cannot independently assess the veracity of every dissenting opinion -- I simply don't have the expertise or resources to chase this down, and neither does anyone else here who isn't a legitimate, credible vaccine researcher).

Could something change my mind? Yes, but looking at the evidence presented so far, the arguments do not seem logical and they are not sufficiently persuasive or credible.

I'll choose to sleep in the bed of the consensus, majority opinion.

chester_audio · « **Reply #43 on:** 22 Jun 2011, 06:53 pm »

What's a guy to do? Take the flu shot or eat organically grown bean sprouts?

ken · « **Reply #44 on:** 22 Jun 2011, 07:20 pm »

More wholesome ingredients compliments of Mercks Chickenpox vaccine

Varivax - Chickenpox Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372
* varicella live virus neomycin phosphate, sucrose, and monosodium glutamate (MSG) processed gelatin, fetal bovine serum, guinea pig embryo cells, albumin from human blood, and human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue

I'll state once again that vaccines are BIG business with an extremely powerful lobby and still feel the results they state are questionable at best, particularly the H1N1 hoax and fear mongering by the CDC and vaccine industry a couple of years ago. Populations in general became healthier due to cleaner drinking water, better nutrition and overall more sanitary living conditions not because of vaccines. There are only a small minority of people in the medical community that openly question vaccines effectiveness and of course they are generally labled as quacks, and if they make too much noise they get railroaded right out of the industry. I would also like to know what disinformation is being spread aside from from the "protein from DNA" comment which was an error and will gladly strike from the record.
It seems to me a majority of the misinformation about vaccines comes from the CDC and the Purveyors of the vaccines themselves

rajacat · « **Reply #45 on:** 22 Jun 2011, 07:43 pm »

I suppose you think that the polio vaccine was an industry conspiracy too.

wilsynet · « **Reply #46 on:** 22 Jun 2011, 10:48 pm »

Quote from: ken on 22 Jun 2011, 07:20 pm

Varivax - Chickenpox Merck & Co., Inc. 800.672.6372
* varicella live virus neomycin phosphate, sucrose, and monosodium glutamate (MSG) processed gelatin, fetal bovine serum, guinea pig embryo cells, albumin from human blood, and human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue.

Well, let's run this down.

If I go here:

http://www.rxlist.com/varivax-drug.htm

The full description is:

VARIVAX* [Varicella Virus Vaccine Live (Oka/Merck)] is a preparation of the Oka/Merck strain of live, attenuated varicella virus. The virus was initially obtained from a child with natural varicella, then introduced into human embryonic lung cell cultures, adapted to and propagated in embryonic guinea pig cell cultures and finally propagated in human diploid cell cultures (WI-38). Further passage of the virus for varicella vaccine was performed at Merck Research Laboratories (MRL) in human diploid cell cultures (MRC-5) that were free of adventitious agents. This live, attenuated varicella vaccine is a lyophilized preparation containing sucrose, phosphate, glutamate, and processed gelatin as stabilizers.

But to put it into context:

http://www.immunizationinfo.org/issues/vaccine-components/human-fetal-links-some-vaccines

So yes, "fetal bovine serum, guinea pig embryo cells, albumin from human blood, and human diploid cells from aborted fetal tissue" were used in the development of this vaccine.

But no fetuses were aborted to develop the vaccination as the fetus was already aborted. No additional fetuses are used in the manufacture of the vaccine, the same cell line that was used before is continuing to be used. Neither do I think there is a conspiracy by the drug industry to encourage abortions.

Now if you object to any derivative of embryonic material being used in any aspect of drug development, hey, that's up to you. Personally, I'm OK with it and would not share your position. But I think context is important here and not just a list of ingredients.

pardales · « **Reply #47 on:** 22 Jun 2011, 11:01 pm »

Vitamin supplements are pretty big business too. Many facets of our medical establishment, both the accepted and marginalized, are profitable. That is the society we live in - free(ish) market capitalism - profit motive sometimes overrides what is actually good for people.

IMHO

We treat symptoms far more than we try to prevent disease. We have the best trauma and emergency care in the world but are one of the unhealthiest of the industrial countries. The food we have available to us is of generally poor nutritional quality. The standard american diet and lifestyle are slowly sucking the energy, ingenuity, and life out of this country.

It does not have to be this way and there are signs that we are coming to understand this as a country. But, we have a long way to go.

Just to stay on topic, I get the flu shot every year.

nonoise · « **Reply #48 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 12:05 am »

Ah, the old conundrum, nutrition vs. medicine. I think there's a happy middle ground and all it takes is research, proven facts and personal experience, though YMMV.

Back in '75 while working as a custodian for a major hospital, I bagged some trash from the intensive care ward and was rewarded with a hypo in my middle finger from a nurse who didn't break off the needle in the Sharp's Case. An hour later they found me in the basement using the wall for support and mumbling to myself. They gave me a shot and sent me home for the day Any blood I donated was tossed with the explanation that there was something wrong with it. They couldn't tell but it was hep like in nature. It wasn't until the the mid 90's when some doctor told me to look into that and lo, I have Hep C, genotype 2 (I believe there are 6 or more types by now).

Fearing my party days were over and my stay on this mortal coil were numbered, I started taking milk thystle, selenium, grape seed extract and alpha-lipoic acid. The docs wanted to start me on some type of chemo and told me to stop taking the nutrients as they were lowering my viral count. Let's see: body racking chemo or some pills. I chose the pills and after on a waiting list (it was somewhat experimental back then as Hep C wasn't know until '90 or so) they decided to not treat me. All I have is slight swelling of the liver, no cirrhosis, and I appear to asymptomatic despite all my partying years. I've read where some 20% of Hep C folk go on to lead a perfectly normal life.

Knock on wood.

As for vaccines, I had my first one last year at age 56 and was only down for 2 days. I felt crappy for several but not out of it. But I've had those results from proper nutrition as well.
Its really hard to say. I am a firm believer in proper nutrition and have been since age 20. I'm always told I look way younger than what I look (I think its my child like nature) but time is taking its toll on me (looks aren't everything, weight is!) There has to be a place for vitamins, minerals and nutrients and for medicine, I just don't know the boundaries but I tend to lean to the former.

Rocket_Ronny · « **Reply #49 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 02:40 am »

The other thing I object to is the pressure, and peer pressure, put on the medical establishment, as well as the general population, to get the stupid shot, esp. the H1N1 nightmare vaccine. It almost became mandatory, but enough people stood up to the drug pushers.

My wife is a physical therapist in our local hospital. It was made clear that if she did not get the shot she would not get any sick pay if she got the flu. Now how many who take the shot will get the flu, a lot. Will they loose pay, no.

Also, everyone was pressured to get the shot and all those that did were given a peer pressure pin saying something to the effect that "Because I care about others I got the shot." Not exact words at all but that was message. So everyone is running around with their peer pressure pins except the few that actually looked into the issue and did not follow the herd. The herd does not like disharmony.

My wife's boss took a flu shot now she is dealing with very debilitating auto-immune joint and fatigue issues. I heard of another person in the next town who had very serious reactions and auto-immune issues as well. These are FAR WORSE issues than most any flu.

Quote

The amount of disinformation being spread here is astonishing. Ignorance-based beliefs are dangerous, especially to society as a whole.

Go ahead and take every shot they thrust at you. At least then, if you get some sort of auto-immune type disease you will know who to thank.

Rocket_Ronny

wilsynet · « **Reply #50 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 03:26 am »

Quote from: ctviggen on 22 Jun 2011, 12:02 pm

Here's the magazine article I was discussing:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/11/does-the-vaccine-matter/7723/

Unfortunately, with no placebo controlled, double blind studies of the flu or any other vaccine, all you get is correlations and it's impossible to tell whether the correlations are caused by the vaccine or not.

Good article, good points. Agree they need to do double blind placebo controlled studies.

wilsynet · « **Reply #51 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 03:37 am »

Quote from: Rocket_Ronny on 23 Jun 2011, 02:40 am

My wife's boss took a flu shot now she is dealing with very debilitating auto-immune joint and fatigue issues. I heard of another person in the next town who had very serious reactions and auto-immune issues as well. These are FAR WORSE issues than most any flu.

I suppose I wouldn't automatically jump to the conclusion that vaccination was the root cause. Did everyone in the clinic that got a flu shot, did they all develop an auto-immune disease?

I knew someone who got cancer and never got an influenza vaccination. Did not getting an influenza vaccination cause this person to get cancer?

I support the idea of asking the medical community to perform double blind placebo controlled studies. I support conducting our work more rigorously. And I'm open to the influenza vaccines as potentially being less effective than is widely held as common wisdom.

But to jump to the conclusion that any illness can be blamed on vaccination is not, in my opinion, a reasonable position to have.

JDUBS · « **Reply #52 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 03:47 am »

Quote from: Rocket_Ronny on 23 Jun 2011, 02:40 am

My wife's boss took a flu shot now she is dealing with very debilitating auto-immune joint and fatigue issues. I heard of another person in the next town who had very serious reactions and auto-immune issues as well. These are FAR WORSE issues than most any flu.

A couple of GREAT data points with statistical signficance that's through the roof! I'm glad I don't rely on audio forums for medical device.

-Jim

Tyson · « **Reply #53 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 04:09 am »

Or, you can avoid the entire delima by getting your immune system into top shape. It's pretty simple, and it also has a very protective effect against diabetes (type 2), heart disease, cancer, and alzheimers - cut out sugars, wheat, cornstarch, and omega 6 oils, increase omega 3 oils, supplement Vit D and eat your veggies! Really, how hard is that? Since I've changed my diet and started taking Vit D I just don't get sick anymore. I WENT THROUGH 36 YEARS OF MY LIFE GETTING FLUS AND COLDS SEVERAL TIMES A YEAR, along with several bouts of pneumonia and bronchitis. And it wouldn't be just minor sickness, when I caught the flu or a cold it was several days in bed and feeling destroyed.

I'm not commenting on the efficacy of vaccines because I think they work for things like measles, but I have my doubts about the flu. A strong immune system is probably a better strategy against the flu and colds than vaccines, IMO.

Crimson · « **Reply #54 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 11:07 am »

My wife is a pediatric oncologist. She sees kids dying every day of things much worse than the flu. She gets the basic flu shot every year. Guess why. I've never had a flu shot. Different situations.

I've heard of a person three towns over who developed neuroblastoma 'due to' excessive intake of shitake mushrooms. Therefore, I don't touch the stuff and only eat portabella.

sts9fan · « **Reply #55 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 01:03 pm »

Quote

Go ahead and take every shot they thrust at you. At least then, if you get some sort of auto-immune type disease you will know who to thank.

You will know? Really? You are incorrect witht hat statement.

Rocket_Ronny · « **Reply #56 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 01:07 pm »

You are right. Overstated for effect.

There are many causes for auto-immune diseases, however, don't overlook the vaccines as possible causes.

Every man made cure, or pill, has side effects. Man is trying to come up with solutions to very complex body chemistry and biology.

Did the flu shot cause the auto-immune issues stated, I don't know for sure, but I do know that a possible side effect of the flu shot is that. That is not an ignorance based belief.

Obviously, the majority do not suffer from serious side effects from flu shots. So you have to decide what's important to you. For my wife and myself, we keep our family far, far, away from any vaccines. Our kids have never had ANY vaccine. They are teenagers now and very healthy.

Some have belly-ached about misinformation stated here on this topic. As with anything, one has to wade through the arguments and decide what's best for them. As with anything in print, verses a live conversation, comments can come across stronger than intended. I just thought I would share the flip side of the argument, as extreme as it might seem to the herd mentality. I never was a herd guy. If the herd is going in the right direction then fine, but if not, then don't follow because the herd must know best.

Rocket_Ronny Mooooooow.

sts9fan · « **Reply #57 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 01:10 pm »

You do your argument a disservice by doing so.

ken · « **Reply #58 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 02:30 pm »

Here is a recent study showing a correlation between infant mortality rates and the number of vaccines given. It's interesting to note that the U.S. has the highest IMR of all developed countries while administering the most vaccinations before age one

http://http://www.scribd.com/doc/54772978/Infant-Mortality-Rates-Regress-w-Higher-No-of-Vaccine-Doses

Rocket_Ronny · « **Reply #59 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 02:36 pm »

Fair enough. Point is not to take the flu shot blindly. There are serious possible side effects.

I mentioned the Herd Mentality, of which I am guilty. Here is a funny story to illustrate this.

Last year we went mountain bike downhilling at the world's premiere resort, Whistler, B.C. There was a monster lineup for lift passes. Maybe 200 people, or about a 25 minute wait.

We got in line and I told my wife I was going to the bathroom and would be back. So I go into the doors RIGHT NEXT to the ticket booths looking for a bathroom. I find out that it is a service center and you can get tickets there. 2 people in line.

I get the tickets and go back to my wife. I try and wave her out of the line but she is resistant. Why, she has now made some progress and does not want to start all over again. Finally, I get her to come out of the line. She is giving me the, this better be good or divorce look. I tell her the story and she is blown away.

We tell some of the folks at the back of the line that you can get tickets inside but they don't believe us and wait the 25 minutes instead. How can hundreds of people be wrong and a couple people be right, impossible.

Rocket_it pays to take a pee_Ronny