[firedog]

Here ya go boys. They are indeed tiny little things 

So they are about 3 inches across? What's the height?

[OzarkTom]

I'll put it a step further and postulate that my amp on batts, or anything you own on batts would probably get its clock cleaned ...thoroughly... by these Ncores with the Ncore SMPS from what we have to go by so far.

 But again, either way, it's a fruitless conversation as the Ncore will not take batteries without apparently some great effort.

Yup, the only way this TBI amp gets its "clock cleaned", is if the battery goes dead or the fuse blows. I keep reading the posts on the other thread, and no one has commented about the detail that I am getting out of this TBI amp. But I will keep watching and see if someone does. Even my buddy commented on this incredible feat, and together, we have more than 75 years experience in this hobby.

It is a shame to see these Hypex amps are less than 4 inches wide, and a battery cannot drive them. I guess we will probably never know.

rclark, I remeber when you were a skeptic on the battery power supply and your Virtue amp.

[Rclark]

 Hey I'm glad you're enjoying your TBI. Me, I'm fairly convinced. Found out they work very well with planars, so not much to worry about here. I hope your TBI on batteries beats the Ncore, then you will be vindicated 
 
 And yeah, I was a skeptic, but what I am saying is I think that the sonics of the Ncore are probably so good, and the SMPS made for it is probably so good, that swapping power supplies, in this case, might give marginal improvements, if at all. That's just my simple hunch, that's all.

 You think it will make a huge difference. If you get the Ncore, make sure to figure out how to get a battery kit to work well, compare it to the SMPS, and let us know how it goes!

 Hey, if there ends up being an even better PS solution for it, I'd be all ears unless it was stupidly expensive.

[yetis]

How kind of you to reply.

In a word, no.  I read about as much as I can and still eat, sleep, exercise, etc...my best guess is not much if any advantage with separate PS, but as always open to different opinions. 

So still thinking single chassis for 3x Ncore, 3x SMPS600.  So far, myself and two others (three total) want such an amp, all of us Trinaural nuts.  I would certainly think others would like such an amp for HT and combo HT/music systems. 

So if someone trips over a nice new commercial chassis not too much larger than minimum required, let me know.  I propose to have a local CNC shop set it up and offer the chassis for minimal markup on an ongoing basis.  Local pro labor rates are generally about 1/2 here in north Utah vs. metro rates in CA where I previously lived.

I am in a similar boat, but I am using a Meridian 861 processor.  I find their Tri-Field setting is the best sounding and sounds very similar to what your trinaural processor is going to do.  Funny enough, I believe that Meridian uses Hypex in its DSP speakers, very old Hypex amps that is... I was thinking of just giving up, and going to Meridians DPS's, but this whole "Hypex Mania" has got me reengaged!

[Russtafarian]

It is a shame to see these Hypex amps are less than 4 inches wide, and a battery cannot drive them. I guess we will probably never know.

Why not?  If I read the specs right earlier in this thread, the NC400's minimum rail voltage is +/-35vdc.  Six 12v SLAs (three in series per rail) will give you +/-40vdc.  The amps maximum power output will be reduced due to the lower voltage rails, but the battery advantage will be there.

Russ

[James Romeyn]

That's an incredible feat right there alone. Right? I mean are there any other 600 watt, 2ohm stable amps of that size?

Just a few inches across!

Wow, that flew right by me.  Excellent point.  Normally one would associate such a tiny lightweight amp making 600W @ 2-Ohms with only disposable,  lowest-quality, mass market junk, the apparent polar opposite of Ncore.

Speaking of electronic junk...in making primeVibe HiWave Technologies (then NXT) forwarded EU requirements, through which I read the following: Somewhere in Europe exists a statue composed of 3.5 tons of electronic garbage representing the mass generated by the average human being in their lifetime. 

[James Romeyn]

Why not?  If I read the specs right earlier in this thread, the NC400's minimum rail voltage is +/-35vdc.  Six 12v SLAs (three in series per rail) will give you +/-40vdc.  The amps maximum power output will be reduced due to the lower voltage rails, but the battery advantage will be there.

Russ

Keep reading/researching earlier in this thread (IIRC about mid point)...there are several other unique PS requirements that, IIRC, would be tough to juggle with batteries.

As earlier posited, the gestalt of this product seems to be a game changer throughout...IOW, as per the euphemistic investment warning, prior results (battery vs. AC) may not be an indicator of future performance...no one's stating for a fact that batteries won't improve Ncore, but rather that it's within the realm of possibility that the improvement, if any, might be so much less than prior architecture that it's not worth the effort.   

Also, more than one user mentions how critical is everything in front of Ncore (Ivor Tiefenbrun of Linn's 40 year old "audio hierarchy").  It seems possible if not likely that Ncore owners might consider front end items prior to the potential "upgrade" to batteries powering the Ncore amps. 

Separately, I presume battery aficionados generally agree that the quantity of improvement vs. AC varies depending on the quality of the AC.

For the record, I'm anxious for someone to try battery Ncore if it's possible.  I predict, and would bet, Bruno's public/private contribution toward such an exercise will be a sum total zero, other than what's already posted concerning PS requirements.         

[James Romeyn]

I am in a similar boat, but I am using a Meridian 861 processor.  I find their Tri-Field setting is the best sounding and sounds very similar to what your trinaural processor is going to do.  Funny enough, I believe that Meridian uses Hypex in its DSP speakers, very old Hypex amps that is... I was thinking of just giving up, and going to Meridians DPS's, but this whole "Hypex Mania" has got me reengaged!

Indeed, I think it's more than reasonable to describe Trinaural as a pure analog version of Meridian Tri-Field.

I find it immensely ironic/weird to consider that the amps inside any powered speaker regardless of cost (studio monitors upward of $100k, domestic gear like Linn and Meridian estimate up to $30k range) contain technology/architecture that is likely vastly inferior to Ncore.   

I'm more than interested for you to clarify:
What exactly were you previously considering?
What are you considering now after reading about Ncore?

Compared to Tri-Field do you find 2-ch center fill to be a "ghost" or "phantom" effect, and with smaller stage size and density?   

[HT cOz]

I'm sure if all the battery folks put their heads together they could get a workable solution using one of these: http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/25_46/products_id/127?osCsid=4e0qvki2efe4i2djltucphqpl5

[Rclark]

Bruno -

"That sort of thing commonly happens on replay systems which try to "sound transparent". It's a bit of a terminology thing. Some people use the word to mean "you get a barrage of details thrown at you", others use it to say "can't hear it do anything to the sound at all".

The first kind of "transparency" is actually a euphonic wow-effect which you can create by dipping the frequency response a dB or two in two places (600Hz and 2kHz) and optionally adding a small bit of HF distortion in the electronics (e.g. using all power FETs and no feedback). That produces what reviewers would describe as "startling clarity" and indeed such a system tends to overemphasize some of the things that bad recordings do badly."

 I love reading this guy's posts, they've been an education unto themselves. Lotta cool insights here.

[Rclark]

Wow, that flew right by me.  Excellent point.  Normally one would associate such a tiny lightweight amp making 600W @ 2-Ohms with only disposable,  lowest-quality, mass market junk, the apparent polar opposite of Ncore.

  Yes, look at that tiny thing! And can you believe all that power goes through there so efficiently it barely gets warm? Incredible.

 Gonna have to win some awards, I imagine.

[OzarkTom]

I'm sure if all the battery folks put their heads together they could get a workable solution using one of these: http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/25_46/products_id/127?osCsid=4e0qvki2efe4i2djltucphqpl5

I bet that will work somehow. I will check with my electronic Guru.

[*Scotty*]

Rclark, it only takes two Mosfets per/ch rated between 200v and 300v at 30 to 50 amps to do the job.
Remember,there is no standing bias current to heat up the aluminum mounting base. I would take the precaution of using a chassis with a floor or sides made from aluminum and mounting the module with a dose of heatsink compound. 
Scotty

[Rclark]

Seems to be a lot of case options...

Looks like there will be several NC1200 amps available eventually, other than offered by Theta:

"The companies who are developing NC1200 based products prefer to keep their projects under wraps because announcing new products before they're ready hurts the sales of their current line. I do believe the first NC1200 product will be shown at the CES."

[earflappin]

earflappin and others:

are your Ncore amps plugged straight into the wall?  I'm curious about the effect of power conditioners and whether they are needed for best sound.

Thanks.
Phil

Phil, mine are plugged into a PurePower 2000 battery-based regenerator.  I may also try my Elgar and directly to the wall to see if there are any sonic differences.

[earflappin]

Welcome to Hypex' "Class D baptism."   

earflappin,
I know the only answer to the following is in the hearing...but please comment if you feel so inclined...

I'm leaning toward one 3-ch box for Trinaural music system. 

Hypothetical.  Both below Ncore amps with separate SMPS600, high-quality IC/speaker cable:

Stereo amp, 3' IC, preamp unbalanced output, 10' speaker cable w/ .1 dB maximum signal loss
Mono-blocks, 11' IC, preamp unbalanced output, 3' speaker cable w/ .03 dB maximum signal loss

I appreciate comment on potential audible difference above.  For unknown reason I suspect Ncore is less sensitive than regular linear amps in the above applications.     

Ncore handles only above 120 Hz on this system.  Also appreciate comment on passive 2-way crossover (simple 1st order, high-quality parts) vs. biamp/active xo.  I similarly suspect Ncore exhibits less degradation than a regular linear amp powering passive crossovers.   

James, sorry, but I don't feel sufficiently qualified to comment.  I would encourage you to post this over on the DIY thread.  Bruno is pretty good about responding to questions like these when he has the time.  The other option is to email Hypex directly at their info address.

[earflappin]

From the DIY thread:

User discussing low power applications : "If you need only 5-10 watts max output, you should minimize noise with something like a tiny class A circuit with ultra-clean power supplies: maybe something in Nelson Pass's quiver (Aleph?). Really good amps like that are pretty rare, excluding tube amps which are generally sweet with distortion. IMHO, ultra-high-efficiency speakers sacrifice accuracy for color, but I shouldn't start a war here":

Interesting comment.  One of the things that first struck me about the NCORES is how amazingly clear they sound at low volume.  Everything is still there....just lower volume.  The other people who have heard my NCORES have all pointed this out as well.  I don't think I've heard another amplifier match their low level performance (or high level for that matter...).

 Bruno -

"I should add that also at these low powers Ncore has way lower distortion than esoteric circuits purportedly invented specifically to have good low-power behaviour. When some designers (I saw a name flash by just now) claim their amp is "best below 1W" this simply means their amp gets steadily worse above 1W, not that below 1W it does better than any other amp. Of course they want you to think they're saying the latter. This is called the "bait and switch" fallacy. Don't fall for it.   "

 user: "I retract my Pass-ing fancy!  "

One of the first things I noticed about the NCORES was how excellent they sound at low volume. Everything is there....just at low volume....  Other people who have heard my NCORES noticed the same thing. 

[earflappin]

Just curious earflappiin, how detailed are the vocals that you are getting
 with the Ncores?

Tom, the quality of vocals is like everything else....very resolved, dynamic yet musical.  This performance is likely due to the combination of ruler flat response (more or less independent of load), super low noise floor and low output impedance, etc.  The level of detail retrieved is almost spooky.  So you hear all subtle nuances of instruments and vocalists.  Hope this helps.  I know I sound like a fanboy here....but if you read the other reviews I think you will see a consistency of perspective emerge.

[Rclark]

The hits keep right on coming:

"I would think that the mature amplifier is the one who manages to replicate the input signal with the greatest accuracy. Ncore does so 30 times better than the best zero-feedback amplifiers ever made"

"From Bruno's article: "Hi-fi review is a complete shambles. The few magazines that do measure are capable of reprinting the most frightening distortion spectra from amplifiers and actually call them good."

If you think reviews for amplifiers are bad, you haven't seen the radioactive glowing crater for speakers. Time and time again a manufacturer *cough*Wilson*cough* gets praised to the skies while the measurements indicate clearly aberrant frequency response, such as bass up by 8 db, or a midrange hole almost an octave wide, or treble response best described as idiosyncratically ragged"

[Rclark]

"If the on-axis response is flat, if the power response is smooth (it may have a slope or a gentle shelf) and if distortion across frequency doesn't do any ridiculous things you can be pretty much sure the speaker is going to give you years of very convincing playback. That doesn't mean that speakers who don't tick all the boxes will sound bad. Frequency response deviations and nonlinear distortion can sound really nice. That is what most sound engineering (mixing and mastering) is about: adding distortion, EQ'ing, compressing and whatnot. It is sometimes thought that audio objectivists presume that all distortions sound ugly. And since that's clearly not true, audio objectivism is therefore supposedly false. Well, no objectivist has ever claimed distortion (linear or nonlinear) necessarily sounds ugly.

They can sound really really nice. But that doesn't mean correct. Just like some amplifiers with loads of distortion add a lot of musicality that wasn't originally there. The trouble with purely subjectivist reviews is that you're essentially at the mercy of the reviewer's tastes If he just runs after that thing which sounds just that bit nicer than the previous thing he liked, he's locking himself into a positive feedback loop searching for the ultimate ear-candy. It's reasonable to expect that the occasional visit to unamplified live sound should keep this in check, but that presumes that the people who record music don't go out and buy the same high-end loudspeakers that the reviewers have just praised all the way to the heavens. But that's precisely what they do, particularly classical music studios and mastering engineers. Unless measurements get given their proper place as a design and evaluation tool, just the way they are in any engineering endeavour, there is no end in sight. Probably the only reason why people think not relying on measurements is somehow acceptable is because it's easy to confuse audio with music. I hate to break it but music is art, and audio is engineering. I don't like engineering to get in the way of art, which is why I think it should be undetectable.

From an audio quality point of view the ideal situation would be where reviews simply established to what degree the product fulfils its requirements. If it changes the sound it's bad, if it doesn't it's good. The longer I'm in this business the clearer it's become to me that measurements and sound go hand in hand provided you strive for the least colouration. If magazines actually reviewed along those lines you would be surprised how rapidly the audio industry would converge on seriously good equipment, both technically and sonically. Really good audio would just turn into a commodity.

But there lies the rub. Audio magazines are not in the business of evaluating kit. They're in the business of selling paper, which they do by expedient of printing things on that paper in order to make it more attractive. Reasonably objective magazines, so far, have either failed or moved into lighter prose and more sparse data. What all of this means is that it isn't in audio journalists' interest to tow the sonically neutral line. You just can't keep filling magazines with reviews of amplifiers that become ever and ever more transparent (and hence identical).

This is not an indictment. It's just logical"