James: about my Bryston amp not sounding perfect unless on a long time?

larevoj · « **Reply #40 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 10:00 am »

Thats good to know

I have tried turning the volume at almost full blast 12 'O'Clock for an entire day and did some listening at the end of the day (it does get VERY hot after 8 hours). I can't really hear any different and even if there is I doubt its night and day.

I will have it turn on in next three days (its hot summer here about 100F) to see if I hear any different.

SoundGame · « **Reply #41 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 12:09 pm »

Quote from: larevoj on 6 Jul 2011, 10:00 am

I have tried turning the volume at almost full blast 12 'O'Clock...

Is 12 O'Clock on your pre-amp full blast?...I don't believe it's anywhere near full on my BP6 with my 4B-SST/2 set to the 23db (low gain) setting. Not really on the topic of this thread but just an observation. I believe at 12' O'clock it would be near the point of 0 db gain from the pre on the input signal - just a guess.

larevoj · « **Reply #42 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 01:40 pm »

Quote from: SoundGame on 6 Jul 2011, 12:09 pm

Is 12 O'Clock on your pre-amp full blast?...

It can go higher but my ears would go deaf very soon and police will be knocking at my doors

SoundGame · « **Reply #43 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 01:49 pm »

Quote from: larevoj on 6 Jul 2011, 01:40 pm

It can go higher but my ears would go deaf very soon and police will be knocking at my doors

Interesting, though I don't want to steal this thread, I have found this puzzling. In my small/medium room 12 X 15, with standard CD source into my BP6 and my 4b-SST/2 set to the low gain 23dB position, driving 86db / 4 ohm bookshelf speakers (Epos ELS3), I don't find that 12'O'Clock is alarmingly loud at all and can have a conversation with someone at somewhat heightened voice levels, no problem. I haven't yet pushed the 4B-SST/2 but it does raise the question of where on my volume control would it begin to get "real loud" like you've expresssed.

larevoj · « **Reply #44 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 02:05 pm »

Hmm...thats interesting. At what volume do you usually listen to? Mine is usually around 10 'O'Clock for Jazz, pop, rock and for Classical its usually 11 'O'Clock. Some high-rez material can actually push my volume to about 12 'O'Clock.

I wired my entire system balance at 2V or -23db driving a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M which I think has similar efficiency as yours. All my ICs are Cardas Golden Reference except from the source which are from Oyaide. My room is not as big...if yours is in meter it would be about half the size of your room. My 4BSST2 is match with the BP26 though but I doubt that will make any different.

SoundGame · « **Reply #45 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 02:21 pm »

Quote from: larevoj on 6 Jul 2011, 02:05 pm

Hmm...thats interesting. At what volume do you usually listen to? Mine is usually around 10 'O'Clock for Jazz, pop, rock and for Classical its usually 11 'O'Clock. Some high-rez material can actually push my volume to about 12 'O'Clock.

I wired my entire system balance at 2V or -23db driving a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M which I think has similar efficiency as yours. All my ICs are Cardas Golden Reference except from the source which are from Oyaide. My room is not as big...if yours is in meter it would be about half the size of your room. My 4BSST2 is match with the BP26 though but I doubt that will make any different.

Sorry - my room is 12 feet X 15 feet, with the system and speakers on the long-wall so listening across the shorter width (12 ft) dimension. Given my measurements are in feet - sounds like your room may be the same if not larger than mine. I use a 1.5 metre Ultimate Cable Silver Series IC between my Rega Apollo CDP and my BP6, with the BP6 and 4B connected using an AudioQuest Diamondback 1 metre RCA IC. (Are you using XLR or RCA, as I believe the XLR add more gain?). Typical listening volume is between 9 and 10 O'Clock (easy listening) for more focus and impact I go up to 12 O'Clock but haven't yet gone past that (I'm still getting used to the new gear - about a month old). At 12 O'Clock if I talk, I can hear myself. I would say I'm still under the 70 db point. I'd like to note that though my speakers are 86 db efficiency they are 4 ohms so with the volume half way up it should be outputting considerably more wattage then if they were 8 ohm. Curious.

larevoj · « **Reply #46 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 02:28 pm »

Yes, I think we have about the same size room. I am using XLR balance cables...I have ever use a sound meter to measure the loudness and at about 10 'O' Clock its about 80 dB slightly more though.

Well...as long as you enjoy the music through your setup it really doesn't matter where the volume knob stops!

SoundGame · « **Reply #47 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 02:34 pm »

Quote from: larevoj on 6 Jul 2011, 02:28 pm

Yes, I think we have about the same size room. I am using XLR balance cables...I have ever use a sound meter to measure the loudness and at about 10 'O' Clock its about 80 dB slightly more though.

Well...as long as you enjoy the music through your setup it really doesn't matter where the volume knob stops!

Oh, bye-the-way, I listen to mainly jazz and acoustic based soft rock. P.S. larevoj - you're gallery photos are gorgeous - you've inspired me to attempt the same in the near future. Cheers.

larevoj · « **Reply #48 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 02:54 pm »

Quote from: SoundGame on 6 Jul 2011, 02:34 pm

Oh, bye-the-way, I listen to mainly jazz and acoustic based soft rock. P.S. larevoj - you're gallery photos are gorgeous - you've inspired me to attempt the same in the near future. Cheers.

Thanks...in fact it has changed a fair bit and I have made a few upgrades since.

I think your 4BSST2 is wired unbalance since BP6 only has RCA with max output of 15 Vrms where the BP26 max output is at 30 Vrms through balance connection.

Ok...let's get back to topic

redbook · « **Reply #49 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 03:01 pm »

Beautiful gallery.creative and inspired . Thanks for the pleasure. Redbook

SoundGame · « **Reply #50 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 03:04 pm »

Quote from: larevoj on 6 Jul 2011, 02:54 pm

Thanks...in fact it has changed a fair bit and I have made a few upgrades since.

I think your 4BSST2 is wired unbalance since BP6 only has RCA with max output of 15 Vrms where the BP26 max output is at 30 Vrms through balance connection.

Ok...let's get back to topic

Sorry - last one on this and I'll start a new thread if needed. Yes - I'm running unbalance RCA connections and that now makes sense. Since the output voltage of the BP26 is twice, using balanced XLR, then at the same volume setting (12 O'clock) the output voltage must be considerably higher given twice the output voltage potential (30 Vrms (balanced) vs. 15 Vrms (unbalanced)). I probably need to go to near 3/4 (3 O'Clock) to get to the same output voltage level as your setup.

larevoj · « **Reply #51 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 03:19 pm »

Quote from: redbook on 6 Jul 2011, 03:01 pm

Beautiful gallery.creative and inspired . Thanks for the pleasure. Redbook

Thanks...

vegasdave · « **Reply #52 on:** 6 Jul 2011, 09:59 pm »

Quote from: SoundGame on 6 Jul 2011, 01:49 pm

Interesting, though I don't want to steal this thread, I have found this puzzling. In my small/medium room 12 X 15, with standard CD source into my BP6 and my 4b-SST/2 set to the low gain 23dB position, driving 86db / 4 ohm bookshelf speakers (Epos ELS3), I don't find that 12'O'Clock is alarmingly loud at all and can have a conversation with someone at somewhat heightened voice levels, no problem. I haven't yet pushed the 4B-SST/2 but it does raise the question of where on my volume control would it begin to get "real loud" like you've expresssed.

Since I'm running single ended, I have the 4BSST set to 29db, per the manual which says basically if the source is single ended (which the BP6 is,) to set it at 29db on the amp.

Anyway, 12 pm on the dial is plenty loud for me. I can go louder, but the cheap speakers I have begin to distort.

SoundGame · « **Reply #53 on:** 7 Jul 2011, 01:03 am »

Quote from: vegasdave on 6 Jul 2011, 09:59 pm

Since I'm running single ended, I have the 4BSST set to 29db, per the manual which says basically if the source is single ended (which the BP6 is,) to set it at 29db on the amp.

Anyway, 12 pm on the dial is plenty loud for me. I can go louder, but the cheap speakers I have begin to distort.

Thanks for pointing that out from the manual...I guess it pays to read the manual. Makes sense, given that unbalanced is half the output voltage - which I would assume is the case at every point on the volume pot. I'll try that then and make a final decision. Cheers.

vegasdave · « **Reply #54 on:** 7 Jul 2011, 02:44 am »

Quote from: SoundGame on 7 Jul 2011, 01:03 am

Thanks for pointing that out from the manual...I guess it pays to read the manual. Makes sense, given that unbalanced is half the output voltage - which I would assume is the case at every point on the volume pot. I'll try that then and make a final decision. Cheers.

No problem. Yeah, try it, and if you don't like it, go back to the other setting. It's not like it costs you! haha.

larevoj · « **Reply #55 on:** 10 Jul 2011, 07:41 am »

Quote from: larevoj on 6 Jul 2011, 10:00 am

Thats good to know

I have tried turning the volume at almost full blast 12 'O'Clock for an entire day and did some listening at the end of the day (it does get VERY hot after 8 hours). I can't really hear any different and even if there is I doubt its night and day.

I will have it turn on in next three days (its hot summer here about 100F) to see if I hear any different.

The last several days I have kept the entire system (MPS-2, BP26, BDA-1, 4BSST2) on and did an average listening of 4 to 5 hours each day. As mentioned, its hot summer and when the air conditioner is off the amplifier does get hot (but not burning hot) and the BP26 actually is warm to touch.

The conclusion - it does sound better! Is it night and day difference? No, but the overall SQ improved, you can hear a refined texture on the mids, relaxed bass and the highs are smooth. Its a pretty amazing "tweak" but it will cost you over time and I intend to have it stay on for the entire month to see if my electric bill increase drastically.

I have heard in this forum mentioned that having the system 'on' 24/7 actually is better for the amplifier and turning on & off daily shorten its lifespan. What about heat? Would heat shorten its lifespan??

Alpha10 · « **Reply #56 on:** 10 Jul 2011, 07:52 am »

Quote from: larevoj on 10 Jul 2011, 07:41 am

I have heard in this forum mentioned that having the system 'on' 24/7 actually is better for the amplifier and turning on & off daily shorten its lifespan. What about heat? Would heat shorten its lifespan??

This is all about when you turn any kit on and off it has to go through a temperature cycles, repeating hot-cold-hot-cold, that is what does the damage. Once a piece of kit is on and the heat is constant, leave it, everything stays just the way it should do, nice and stable.

Cheers

Elizabeth · « **Reply #57 on:** 10 Jul 2011, 07:58 am »

Various (Googled) 'mean time to failure' tests done on electronic gear shows that the number one failure is at turn on. The failure IS from the sudden inrush of current, and the sudden change in teperature). This failure shows up the most in comparisons of time of use... hours of use.
Say a component has a mean time to failure of 100,000 hours, The number one cause of that failure happens at turn on. (just like filament light bulbs, usually they burn out when turned on, rather than while in use)

So if you play your stereo once a week, turn it off.
If you play it every day.. leave it on.

As usual, power amps with tubes are a different story, and should be turn off. (due to possible hazards of tubes blowing up, and fire. and the expense if retubing)

So the answer is no, the heat generated by the normal use is not going to shorten the lifespan of an electronic device being left on 24/7 If it is used anyway a few times a week. In fact the lifespan is shortened by turning it on and off a lot.
So the tradeoff is only when the item is left on, but not used for long periods of time.
I would just toss out a guess that the balance is around twice a week. (pure speculation...) So if you play your stereo more than twice a week. leave it on (if the electrical energy use does not bother you)
If you use it more than twice a week, then it is better being left on. (again, aside from wasting electricity.
And if like me, you use it every day, for many hours, leaving it on is a no problem good idea.
If you use it only occasionally, (once a week or less) turn it off between uses will maximize the lifespan.
This is my understanding of the tradeoff between hours of use, vs the stress of turn on/off cycles.
(And note Bryston tests the amps with a turn on, turn off series to stress them the most they can, and not just turned on for a long time!)
Added: the heat issue: the normal heat from a component is not a factor.
Heat IS a factor if it is substantially higher than the normal temp the unit is designed for. So sticking you Bryston amps in a small cabinet with no ventilation is not a good idea. But for normal use heat is not an issue.

srb · « **Reply #58 on:** 10 Jul 2011, 08:08 am »

Heat will shorten the lifespan of component parts, in particular capacitors. The electrolytic capacitors used in power supplies have the largest capacitance per volume, but also have the shortest lifespan compared to other capacitor types. A capacitor with a 105 °C rating may have a lifespan of only 2000 hours at that temperature, but the life on average is doubled for each 10 °C lower operating temperature.

As far as "seeing if your electric bill will increase", it obviously will and can be easily calculated. The 4BSST2 has a power consumption at idle of 170W. If you listen 5 hours a day, the extra 19 hours of idle time will have a power consumption of just under 100kWh per month. Electricity cost will vary by locale, but if you pay $0.12 per kWh it will cost you around an additional $12 a month. A pair of 7BSST2 will consume about 2-1/2 times that, or an extra $30 per month.

If you live in NYC, you may be paying up to $0.19 per kWh and you can add another 50% to those amounts.

Steve

Elizabeth · « **Reply #59 on:** 10 Jul 2011, 09:26 am »

One thing about caps, the temp at which a hand gets burned touching an object is around 60C (140F)
So Anyone can place thier hand on a Bryston amp and not have a problem holding it there. Now true the area around the transistors is going to be hotter.. but in the same way, the area around the caps is going to be cooler, Or at the average temp of the body of the amp.. around 60C or so...'Then we have the 50% increase in failure for a cap with an increase in temp of 10C. But the reverse? if a cap is rated to 105C.. what does it mean if it is at 90C or 80C a lessening of tem increases the life by 33%? for each 10 degrees? then 33 plus 10 more for another 10? log style?
So what if it is only at a temp where one can place ones fingers on them. (I am certain 100% certain ANY cap in a Bryston amp is at or below the 60C limit for hands on. And I would stick my fingers on them, no problem to test this out... )
So at 60C leaving it on... Does it make a difference? (and many caps in there are going to be below 60C anyway. maybe only at 55C for those powersupply caps, or less! Only the small form caps near the transistors are going to be warmer. But still touchable, and that means under 60C.

Yeah I know crap about this.. but then the folks who bring up the 10C halving the live do not know much either.. As that is mostly a warning for overheating electronics.
IE sticking the amp in a cabinet and raising the nominal temp from standard to way hotter. THEN it is an issue of yeah the caps lifespan is shortened. But for just using it at the standard operating temp it has no meaning for the product life IMO.
And since Bryston does not say bad to leave on.. obviously they are not worried the repair costs will be higher if left on... Since they will be the folks covering the cost of any repair of caps.. failing...
So.....
Also: my old Forte 4a amp before the Bryston 4B-SST2 I have now, used to cost me about $10 a month to leave on 24/7.
I was only 50 watts a side, but class "A".. and probably put out as many BTUs of heat as my Bryston does from a much greater mass.
I used that Forte 4a for 17 years and it was left on 24/7 most of that time. Only the final few years I started turning it off due to the rise in electrical rates.. and i had a computer self powered speaker setup for my pets during work hours then.
(Prior i left a five disc CD player on the main system running all times i was gone for my pet birds.. lucky guys!)