[jaxwired]

 

The manufacturer relies on the dealer to make the sale. If the dealer does not make a reasonable profit on the sale then the dealer has no more use for the product.

The 'manufacture' and the 'dealer' and the 'customer' are all part of any products success or failure. One can not exist without the support of the other given the normal marketing model used by most high end companies.

The warranty is on the product but if the manufacturer goes away then so does the warranty.

james

High end audio retailers are obsolete.  I think there a lot of people like me that wish the manufacturers would just give up on high end retailers.  The products would still sell over the internet.  People are always complaining about how this hobby doesn't attract the younger generation and is dying, but the high end retailers are a big part of the problem.  Back in the 1980's I could go into a stereo shop and browse all I wanted, no problem.  Then once in awhile I would buy something, great.  That was possible because there were plenty of customers.  Now days I feel guilty as hell if I don't spend 5 grand after one visit as I'm the only guy in there and the sales guys are starving for a sale.  It's horrible.  I never go in high end audio shops anymore.  I just don't have the money necessary to support them.   They just don't have the ability to cater to smaller customers.  They need big mega sales just to keep the doors open. Infrequent 2 channel buyers really are not welcome.  And I don't blame them a bit, that's the business they are in. They cater to the very rich pretty much exclusively.  But what about the rest of us?  Where do we buy our Bryston gear?  Sure I can go to an authorized dealer on the one day a year I'm absolutely ready to pull the trigger on a new Bryston amp, but then I just feel ripped off.  Why should I pay 40% markup to a dealer that offers me no service and has no relationship with me?  40% just to take my order?  $2k is a mighty big tip to give a guy that spent 30 minutes with you.  I just can't waste my money like that and I think there are thousands of guys just like me.  I say let the high end audio shops die off already.  High end audio will survive without them.

[James Tanner]

^^^^^^^^^^^

Hi

You may be correct - the times they are a-changing.

James

[Elizabeth]

On the other hand, (about High end brick and mortar shops) without an audition with my own music, over several hours, twice. i would not have purchased the stuff i now own. Purchased from that dealer. $20,000. worth of stuff.
No way am I going to spend that sort of money without hearing the stuff and deciding if it is for me.
I would buy everything used if i could not audition the new products until my personal feeling of yes this will do, is met. And i could NOT do that at a show, ever.
 So with no dealers, the High end IMO would be utterly dead. All there would be is really wealthy folks who could buy whatever unheard, and who can afford to take a chance, guessing if it will be suitable. or folks buying used stuff becuse that is the ONLY way to buy unheard stuff.
You can buy, try and sell for very little loss. Basically the cost of shipping if you play the game well.
So IMO without brick and mortar stores, only small (read cheap) stuff would be sold direct, and all the vast middle ground, from $3,000 to $30,000. would disappear entirely.
I have no problem buying a set of headphones for $1,400. or a used headamp for $1,250.. but to buy a new product, unheard, for $5,000. each? That is a pre and amp  plus phono for $13,000.? No way dude, No way.
So i am glad, (if that is the future, no B&M stores) that i probably bought the last 'big' stereo purchase of my life last Spring.

[PRELUDE]

I said let the highend audio shops die and hi-fi will survive years back when LUXMAN was disappeared.
The hi fi show in Munic is probebly the best hi-fi show till today.But they also have another type of show in Germany which I been in most of them called [WORLD OF HI-FI].This is a different kinds of show.They tour all over and they have set up in different rooms and hire a DJ or entertainer that does not discuss the price or specifictions.He/She is there only to play music.Now I would say let the hi-fi shops die and the show begin.
More demo and show=survive

[Diamond Dog]

 So if the dealers all end up in the tar-pit, then what ? Do we all end up buying at full list from Audio Advisor instead ? I don't see that as progress...And if the market shifts to used equipment, where is the incentive for the James Tanners of the world to develop new gear and move the industry forward ?

 It's a brutal time to be a dealer right now- so many factors conspire against them. I've established a good relationship with the local dealer I do business with and his advice and experience have been a valuable resource for me as I build my current system. If the internet becomes the only way to obtain gear and info about gear, we're all going to be relying on the kindness of strangers - audio critics, self-anointed "experts", cheerleaders and apple-polishers.
God help us all...

D.D.

[Deftone]

James,

I'm having dinner tonight with my dealer so I can place an order before the prices go up on June 1st. I want you and my dealer to make money (but not too much).

Gary

Wow,another price increase!Is this all true and how much will it be then?

[Diamond Dog]

Deftone :  June 1st - increases from 0-8% depending on the unit.

D.D.

[Deftone]

 Is the price affected only for new gears?What if the dealers had it for a few months or may be a year back will the price increase be affected too?Or only affect on gears order after June 1st?

[Jibara]

I bought a new sp-2 (unauthorized dealer) at a significant discount. This was definitely a case of knowledge is folly; ignorance is bliss on my part because I didn't give a second thought to them being authorized or not.

Well when the unit needed service under warranty and had to be returned to Bryston I was furnished a reciept from an authorized dealer.

The unit has been back to Bryston for warranty service; been repaired and returned to me in good stead.

And of this I am reasonably certain; both dealers and myself are happy with this little Ménage à trois.

[vegasdave]

I think that dealers just have to be competitive, and that includes competitive on price. No one's gonna pay full retail in this day and age!

[James Tanner]

.

And of this I am reasonably certain; both dealers and myself are happy with this little Ménage à trois.

Hi,

I may be talking out of school here but I am afraid you are wrong on that - we do not want our customers to suffer and realize they just want the best price possible so sometimes we look the other way or we get deceived by our own dealers, but mark my words.  If in the normal course of doing business it becomes unprofitable then many companies will disappear. I get a few calls a year from quality Bryston dealers saying that their customer spent time in their store listening or gathering information then later they find out that customer bought elsewhere or bought online and they drop the product.  If we find out a dealer is trans-shipping our product to another dealer their franchise is cancelled (and eventually we do).

As I said before this is a relationship between the customer, the dealer and the manufacturer and that small amount of profitability allows us to stay in business.  If price is the only consideration and folks decide to go around the normal way of doing business then many of you will be correct - companies like Bryston will cease to exist and maybe that’s as it should be – law of the jungle as they say. 

Also many hi end companies have tried the direct sales route and so far it does not work.  I do not have an answer to that dilemma.

james

[Photon46]

I think that dealers just have to be competitive, and that includes competitive on price. No one's gonna pay full retail in this day and age!

Although I don't own Bryston gear, I've followed this thread with interest as it sheds light from multiple angles on problems that affect all in this hobby. Vegasdave's quote reflects a mindset that is a challenge for retailers. Manufacturers have to keep reinforcing the distinction between between price and value. Another industry being challenged by pricing issues is the automotive industry. Scion and Saturn are two products that have been successful in breaking out the customer/dealer price haggling purchase relationship. They established sufficient awareness of value in their retail pricing that the desire to haggle over price was overcome by prospective customers desire to own their products. All that said though, I'm not sure exactly how the lessons from Scion and Saturn can be widely applied to the hi-end audio retailing universe.  It's a limiting business model because there's only so much room at the apex of a "high value perception" product pyramid.

[joey116]

You only need to look through these forums to find many quality manufacturers that only sell direct,
personally I don't need a retailer to tell me that the new SP3 is a state of the art piece, and I would love to buy direct.

[Ericus Rex]

...As I said before this is a relationship between the customer, the dealer and the manufacturer and that small amount of profitability allows us to stay in business.  If price is the only consideration and folks decide to go around the normal way of doing business then many of you will be correct - companies like Bryston will cease to exist and maybe that’s as it should be – law of the jungle as they say. 

I have to ask exactly how Audio Advisor fits into this model?

[James Tanner]

I have to ask exactly how Audio Advisor fits into this model?

They are our 'only' on-line retailer (US only) and provide customers with a way to attain the product who are not near a store or prefer to deal with a qualified online retailer.

james

[Letitroll98]

I do not own Bryston gear and I'm aware that this is the Bryston circle, so let me tread lightly.  My take on this is then if I buy a Bryston piece of equipment used I can expect no manufacturer support?  Please tell me I'm wrong because if that's the case, it would destroy the resale value of the product, thus lowering the perceived retail value.  If I buy a used Chevy I can still take it to a Chevy dealer for service and buy GM parts for replacement, they don't ask where I bought it.

[mclsound]

I had a interesting conversation with a gentleman that purchased a full HT system from a store in the Toronto area that moved from Brampton to Oakville.He was told that the products(in 2008) would always hold their value and so he bought close to a $100K system and now 3.5yrs later has to move his gear.He said he worked almost 7 days a week to pay off the system so that he did not have to pay interest.These dealers have dropped the product line (but drive a porsche) and now his $10,000 pre/pro is worth $1500 and his $18,000 monoblocks are worth $7000 all in less than 4yrs.
This is why dealers are dead!
They are of no use to alot of us and I want that 40-50%(retailers fee) to stay with my family...not theirs.A harsh reality but the truth.

[James Tanner]

I do not own Bryston gear and I'm aware that this is the Bryston circle, so let me tread lightly.  My take on this is then if I buy a Bryston piece of equipment used I can expect no manufacturer support?  Please tell me I'm wrong because if that's the case, it would destroy the resale value of the product, thus lowering the perceived retail value.  If I buy a used Chevy I can still take it to a Chevy dealer for service and buy GM parts for replacement, they don't ask where I bought it.

We are not out to get our customers - we will cover any issues that a customer has.

James

[Nels Ferre]

Also many hi end companies have tried the direct sales route and so far it does not work.  I do not have an answer to that dilemma.

It works extremely well for some and not at all for others. Why? I do not know. What I do know is there is no sure fire cookie cutter recipe for success in high end audio or any other business.

[jaxwired]

If B&M dealers go away, then the existing pricing structure would not make sense as the overhead for online sales is considerably lower.   Prices will be lowered.

The issue of how consumers can hear the gear is a tough nut to crack.  There only seems to be two options, more audio shows, and 60 day home trials.  Other than that I don't know how to solve that problem.

But the current business model is not doing anyone any favors.  The dealers are obviously struggling just to stay afloat, the consumers are faced with high pressure sales and limited demo products, and the manufacturers are moving less product.

Moving to all internet sales will definately help consumers like myself as I don't use high end dealers now so I'd be missing nothing but I would benefit from the lower prices.  I also think lower prices and more internet friendly sales (with possible home demos) would increase sales for the manufacturer.  So only the dealers would lose.