[rosconey]

if the chineese govt wasnt devalueing its money it wouldnt be so good a deal-add 40% to cover what the govt eats and its not a very atractive speaker at about 6 grand-
yes the cabinets are sweet but plain, the drivers are nothing special-

lots of diyers can design very good crossovers-rick craig,dennis murphy-ect so thats is a good option.

cabinet makers are everwhere -

so i think matching the sound and quality isnt that hard at the devalued yen -if the money was not devalued the 6 grand price would be easy to beat

this is my opinion and holds no weight outside my little world

[WerTicus]

There is certainly too much simplification and too many assumptions made here. Yes, better components may improve the sound. However, implementation, matching, synergy, and tuning are all extremely important as well. Haphazardly throwing the most expensive components together will not make a great sounding speaker, unless ex ...

Yes implementation matching synergy and tuning are important and just using the most expensive components together will not make a great speaker on its own.  But my example trys to illustrate one example of where cost does make a difference.

Given two properly implemented, tuned, matched, synergiesd speakers the best one will be the one using more expensive parts.

At this level its hard to say which is better unless your used to hearing one all day long and its obvious or they are right beside each other for you to switch between.

[Rocket]

Woh guys time out   .

I don't want to get involved in a pissing match regarding speakers.

I'll explain a couple of things so you can understand the pricing of war audio speakers.  Firstly the company is a one man show, low overheads.  

Pat can do individual designs ie. cabinet size or different drivers/tweeters and he designs his own xovers.  He also offers kits which are orca designed speakers as well.

This is pat's hobby and he has another business which is his main interest.
He likes to offer speakers as cheaply as possible and isn't worried that much about making a profit.  He uses axon caps etc in his xover which are an average audiophile componentry.

He does use very good quality drivers and as a comparison my speakers cost me $3000au although now it would cost a few $$$ more i imagine.  The drivers alone are about $800us for a pair of speakers (raven 1 ribbon tweeter and 2 x 7inch 7k4211db focal/kevlar mid/bass drivers in a mtm configuration).

The secret is he is a very good speaker and xover designer, unfortunely i can't ship my speakers over to the states for you to demo and really you are taking my word on how good they really are.

The reference 1's are approximately $8000au finished which includes a piano finish and about 2-3 sheets per box of blackhole 5.  They are a step or 2 higher in sound quality than mine.  Raven 1 ribbon tweeter, midrange 3.5 inch accuton mid driver and cabasse 8 inch bass driver in a floorstander.  He takes anywhere from 3-6 months to build a speaker as he is a one man operation.

It really isn't a Fair comparison as av123 have a lot more overheads to deal with.  That said i'm Sure that the ref 3's are a Very good sounding speaker.

As an owner of the perpetual technologies p1a/p3a modwright level 1 i am certainly satisfied with their products.

Best wishes

Rod

[WerTicus]

How much are the WAR Reference One's, from a kit? The only price I could find was Rocket and yourself mentioning $8000AU...

....best of luck...the WAR R1's, Orions, or any other speaker.

Yeah the war r1's are 8k aust... if that = 5.9k us then that is good cause it means the aussie dollar is pretty strong and I was not aware of this!  But that shouldnt worry you as your claim is that more expensive does not = better.

I dont know if it is a finished product or just the parts.

The speakers themselves dont look anything special... well the drivers do but the wood finish could be done better for sure.  Being a DIY thingy you can make them or have them make to any finish you like!  I personally would have raw mdf cause i dont personally care about asthetics, certainly not for something thats job is related to sound and it minimises the risk of them being stolen!

I have never heard the watt puppies it was anothers opinion.

I would describe the WARr1's are being very accurate yes.  They sounded scary real and had pin point imagining... you could see the stage... see the trumpet behind the guitarist.... no sound actually seemed to come from the speakers themselves and it just sounded like music... it just blew me away.

Now the next best system i have heard other than the war's was my own system... and guess what... Its an all vifa system.  Vifa is just low end kit.  It can sound good for sure but there is a limit to how good it can sound.  But not according to you of course.

Also I dont know why you think DIY designs cannot be as good as professional designs.

Ill find out more information about the r1's crossover for you and get back to you.

[WerTicus]

Hey rod did you know that pat has nearly finished his new design which is going to be better than the r1's....   using the raven3's which are 3k each ... lol

even more out of my price range.

Dont worry its alllll friendly

[Rocket]

Okay that's it the gloves are off now   .

Here is a link to a picture of my speakers, decide for yourself if they look diy.  Mind you the stands are definitely diy made from a concrete block and wrapped in fabric.  Sorry about the messy room i didn't tidy up when i took the photo, the speakers are finished in piano black which cost me a fortune to do so.

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=233

The war audio ref 1's are a finished product for about $8000au.  I haven't been to the shop this year so i'm not sure if the speakers have gone up in price.

I'm not going to comment on any speakers that i haven't heard.  It really is up to the individual whether they like a speaker or not.  Apparently the guys at war audio compared a wilson watt puppy to the ref 1's and they liked the war audio speakers better.  I wasn't there to listen and am only relaying what was told to me, it may be the case but unless we all had a listen to the comparison it is all pretty subjective imo.

I've been in this hobby since 1985, read many profession reviews and reviews from member on this circle and aa and it really is Very confusing regarding these reviews.  one person likes a product another hates it.   sometimes i think personal pride is involved when we compare our components to others.  Hey, i want my speakers to be the best in the world but unfortunately that just isn't so.

regards

rod

Ps the photos on the site are mostly diy cabinets that customers have built for themselves.  Pretty good finishes imo.

[Sa-dono]

if the chineese govt wasnt devalueing its money it wouldnt be so good a deal-add 40% to cover what the govt eats and its not a very atractive speaker at about 6 grand-
yes the cabinets are sweet but plain, the drivers are nothing special-

lots of diyers can design very good crossovers-rick craig,dennis murphy-ect so thats is a good option.

cabinet makers are everwhere -

so i think matching the sound and quality isnt that hard at the devalued yen -if the money was not devalued the 6 grand price would be easy to beat  

this is my opinion and holds no weight outside my little world

The cabinets may be "plain" rectangles, but seeing them in person is just something else, IMO.

As to the value, I still feel for $6K that they would be hard to match based on sound and looks. Certainly based on sound, there are many other very good sounding speakers, and at this level tastes and personal preferences will come into play. Looks can fall under personal preference as well, but this is my opinion we are talking about. I have not found a similar level of quality of glossy finish, with a speaker of this level of sonics, for the price - so my comment stands.

As to your other comments, those are just weak arguments, IMO. Certainly other companies could do the same (and many, even most, of the major speaker companies are having their cabinets built in China now, regardless of stating so or not). Mark took the initial startup costs and risks, and should be applauded, as this is what entrepreneurialism is all about. Also, by your same logic, we could get future complaints such as, "Well Brian could make (better/even better) speakers than Klaus if he did not live in California, because of their higher cost of living there!"

[Sa-dono]

Yes implementation matching synergy and tuning are important and just using the most expensive components together will not make a great speaker on its own.  But my example trys to illustrate one example of where cost does make a difference.

Given two properly implemented, tuned, matched, synergiesd speakers the best one will be the one using more expensive parts.

At this level its hard to say which is better unless your used to hearing one all day long and its obvious or they are right beside each other for you to switch between.

Well at least we agree on some level!

You are still working in the theoretical and ideal. Firstly, like I mentioned, more expensive does not always equate to better sound. Secondly, the more expensive parts may not synergize and match as well as the slightly cheaper parts, in the real world, instead of in the theoretical. Thirdly, you or I do not know all of the components used in the Ref 3, or how much they cost (outside of the Vifa XT).

[WerTicus]

Okay well nice purchase anyway sa- dono... they are certainly a level above my setup.

I would still rip them apart and upgrade the xover

Regardless of all my arguements I dont think they are bad speakers or that they are bad value for money... Seems like an overall good purchase for 6k.  Now that i know its 6k and not the 8k the ref1's are it would make sense at that price if they didnt come with the super tweeter.

But it does so its no surprise you found it to be awesome value compared to others around it.

Rod I have seen a pair of your speaker boxes sitting on the floor at war in a blue piano finish looks very cool.  You need a camera that does not auto apature for photo's with big white walls and black boxes what is the f5 of those?

[Sa-dono]

Woh guys time out   .

I don't want to get involved in a pissing match regarding speakers.

No worries Rod. WerTicus and I are just having a friendly discussion, as far as I can tell. If not, I have a proposition. He can fly out here for me to kick his ass. If he wins, I'll pay for his flight and a day's stay. If I win, he has to wimper home with his head between his legs, and at the cost of the flight. Sounds fair, right? Just kidding btw.

I'll explain a couple of things so you can understand the pricing of war audio speakers.  Firstly the company is a one man show, low overheads.  

Pat can do individual designs ie. cabinet size or different drivers/tweeters and he designs his own xovers.  He also offers kits which are orca designed speakers as well.

This is pat's hobby and he has another business which is his main interest.
.......

Yeah, he likes to build car audio speakers! I imagine this is not his other business, but it is rather surprising, and strange, that he does do what I mentioned.

He likes to offer speakers as cheaply as possible and isn't worried that much about making a profit. He uses axon caps etc in his xover which are an average audiophile componentry.

He does use very good quality drivers and as a comparison my speakers cost me $3000au although now it would cost a few $$$ more i imagine. The drivers alone are about $800us for a pair of speakers (raven 1 ribbon tweeter and 2 x 7inch 7k4211db focal/kevlar mid/bass drivers in a mtm configuration).

The secret is he is a very good speaker and xover designer, unfortunely i can't ship my speakers over to the states for you to demo and really you are taking my word on how good they really are.

The reference 1's are approximately $8000au finished which includes a piano finish and about 2-3 sheets per box of blackhole 5. They are a step or 2 higher in sound quality than mine. Raven 1 ribbon tweeter, midrange 3.5 inch accuton mid driver and cabasse 8 inch bass driver in a floorstander. He takes anywhere from 3-6 months to build a speaker as he is a one man operation.

It really isn't a Fair comparison as av123 have a lot more overheads to deal with. That said i'm Sure that the ref 3's are a Very good sounding speaker.

As an owner of the perpetual technologies p1a/p3a modwright level 1 i am certainly satisfied with their products.

Best wishes

Rod

Oh come on, don't be a cheap ass, and ship 'em over here! And yes, we really have no idea how good those speakers are, or what you have heard and been able to compare them with. An idea , have the guy that lives in Australia that owned Wilson X-1's, and built his own dipole speakers, give the WAR speakers a listen. If I am not mistaken, he has posted at AC a couple times. I would be curious about his impressions.

[Sa-dono]

Yeah the war r1's are 8k aust... if that = 5.9k us then that is good cause it means the aussie dollar is pretty strong and I was not aware of this!  But that shouldnt worry you as your claim is that more expensive does not = better.

I dont know if it is a finished product or just the parts.

The speakers themselves dont look anything special... well the drivers do but the wood finish could be done better for sure. Being a DIY thingy you can make them or have them make to any finish you like! I personally would have raw mdf cause i dont personally care about asthetics, certainly not for something thats job is related to sound and it minimises the risk of them being stolen!

I have never heard the watt puppies it was anothers opinion.

I would describe the WARr1's are being very accurate yes. They sounded scary real and had pin point imagining... you could see the stage... see the trumpet behind the guitarist.... no sound actually seemed to come from the speakers themselves and it just sounded like music... it just blew me away.

Now the next best system i have heard other than the war's was my own system... and guess what... Its an all vifa system. Vifa is just low end kit. It can sound good for sure but there is a limit to how good it can sound. But not according to you of course.

Also I dont know why you think DIY designs cannot be as good as professional designs.

Ill find out more information about the r1's crossover for you and get back to you.

Rod is saying the $8K AU is for a finished product. That is still far above the price you said. Also, even if you did complete the project as DIY, it would still be at a higher total cost.

As basic economics tells us, time equals money. All the time it takes for you to construct and build your speakers adds to the total cost and monetary value, regardless of whether you enjoy it or not. If you do not value your time, feel free to go up to your boss, tell him that you do not value your time, and want to be paid minimum wage from now on (if they do not have a minimum wage there in Australia, tell him you will work for free). I am sure no one is going to do this, so it would be rubbish for anyone to claim they do not value their time.

If you do not care about looks, that is your prerogative. Personally, while sound is definitely the most important factor, I am not going to turn down great looks to go along with great sound.

As far as how you described the WAR R1's, any good speaker and system should be able to do that. So if that is the first time you have experienced that, I do not believe I have much to say.

In regards to Vifa, I was only talking about the tweeter, so do not misquote me, or think that I feel your speakers should sound all that good. I never said that DIY designs could not sound as good as professional designs as well. What I will say is that the Ref 3's accomplish many factors that many people claim are impossible. Those would be, the abilities for a floorstander to image like a monitor, for a 4-way to have the coherency and transparency of a good 2-way, and for a non-ribbon speaker to have the transient response and speed of ribbons, while also having the dynamics, attack, and slam of dynamic drivers.

If you could find out the frequency response of the R1's, as well as the info about the crossovers, then that would be greatly appreciated.

[Sa-dono]

Okay that's it the gloves are off now   .

Here is a link to a picture of my speakers, decide for yourself if they look diy.  Mind you the stands are definitely diy made from a concrete block and wrapped in fabric.  Sorry about the messy room i didn't tidy up when i took the photo, the speakers are finished in piano black which cost me a fortune to do so.

http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=233

The war audio ref 1's are a finished product for about $8000au. I haven't been to the shop this year so i'm not sure if the speakers have gone up in price.

I'm not going to comment on any speakers that i haven't heard. It really is up to the individual whether they like a speaker or not. Apparently the guys at war audio compared a wilson watt puppy to the ref 1's and they liked the war audio speakers better. I wasn't there to listen and am only relaying what was told to me, it may be the case but unless we all had a listen to the comparison it is all pretty subjective imo.

I've been in this hobby since 1985, read many profession reviews and reviews from member on this circle and aa and it really is Very confusing regarding these reviews. one person likes a product another hates it. sometimes i think personal pride is involved when we compare our components to others. Hey, i want my speakers to be the best in the world but unfortunately that just isn't so.

regards

rod

Ps the photos on the site are mostly diy cabinets that customers have built for themselves. Pretty good finishes imo.

Those certainly look better than any of the speakers on WAR's page (from what I can tell)! You should take some better shots (we need some light and contrast, dang it!), and have them load the pics on their site.

As far as the impressions from the WAR guys on the WATT/Puppy's, I would take that with all the salt from a salt mine! I am sorry, but taking an opinion from a manufacturer/designer has to be the most tainted and subjective of them all. If you have both listened to many of the same products, compared notes, and agree with each other, then you have something. However, to outright take the thoughts of a manufacturer/designer in regards to a comparison of their product with another is just flawed. Too many manufacturers and designers think their product is the absolute best, and God's gift to audio. I am not saying all do, or that all of their opinions are wrong. I am just saying that it is definitely best to hear for yourself (really no matter where the opinion came from).

As far as wanting my speakers to be the best? I really do not care. Best in audio can be totally subjective. Sure, there is the merit of accuracy. However, not everyone wants accuracy. Everyone should buy what they like and enjoy. If I find a speaker, or audio component, I like more, all the better - something new to add to my system!

[Sa-dono]

Okay well nice purchase anyway sa- dono... they are certainly a level above my setup.

I would still rip them apart and upgrade the xover

Regardless of all my arguements I dont think they are bad speakers or that they are bad value for money... Seems like an overall good purchase for 6k.  Now that i know its 6k and not the 8k the ref1's are it would make sense at that price if they didnt come with the super tweeter.

But it does so its no surprise you found it to be awesome value compared to others around it.

Okay, cool, thanks WerTicus!

And whatever floats your boat!

[Rocket]

Hi Guys,

I agree with your comment regarding the wilson speakers, i don't give any credence unless i heard the comparison myself.

I had a Very interesting afternoon.  A friend invited me to a guy's house who designs amps (mostly valves) and speakers,  apparently he has been designing components for many years prior to leaving germany for australia a few years ago.

Anyway had a listen to 3 sets of speakers, a valve pre/amp combination and a hybrid integrated 45 watt amplifier.  The speakers utilised fairly inexpensive vifa drivers/tweeters and the system including his amps absolutely blew me away.

We stayed for 3 hours today listening to his system.  I did think that considering the components used in the speakers that they were a bit pricey but nonetheless they sounded excellent.

He is coming by tomorrow and bringing his hybrid integrated and a pair of speakers to listen in my system.  I'm not going to buy anything but one of the guys who attended is Really interested in the amp.

Anyway i'll let you know how it goes. I think it is Amazing that there are so Many talented people around who never get recognised for their work.

regards

rod

[Jon L]

Boy, are you guys worked up!

All the speakers mentioned probably sound great, so who cares if one uses this or that cap or driver that costs $10 vs. $200?  It is utterly FANTASTIC IMO that there are increasing number of speaker options from small companies (like Onyx and WAR, not to forget Selah, etc) that offer great speakers for a fraction of price of things like Watt/Puppy.  Just 5 years ago, one had no choice but to look at these ridiculously expensive speakers for "state-of-the-art."

Watt/Puppy (I've heard up to system 6) and X-1 are great speakers despite all the negative opinions, except for the PRICE.  It is a crime in my opinion to charge $25K for WP7.  B&W Nautilus 801, signature offer a bit better value for money, but still too much money.  

In the year 2004, one can now buy speakers at a fraction of these speakers and assemble a system around them that will compete very well with any system assembled around those expensive speakers.  This is something we should all celebrate and be ecstatic over, since I believe the speakers (coupled to room) really are the cornerstone of any system.

So let's get the word out about the reasonably-priced excellent speakers out there even more, so our "less-informed" audiofool bretheren has a chance to free themselves from the tyranny of "big name" companies.

[Sa-dono]

Hi Guys,

I agree with your comment regarding the wilson speakers, i don't give any credence unless i heard the comparison myself.

I had a Very interesting afternoon.  A friend invited me to a guy's house who designs amps (mostly valves) and speakers,  apparently he has been designing components for many years prior to leaving germany for australia a few years ago.

Anyway had a listen to 3 sets of speakers, a valve pre/amp combination and a hybrid integrated 45 watt amplifier. The speakers utilised fairly inexpensive vifa drivers/tweeters and the system including his amps absolutely blew me away.

We stayed for 3 hours today listening to his system. I did think that considering the components used in the speakers that they were a bit pricey but nonetheless they sounded excellent.

He is coming by tomorrow and bringing his hybrid integrated and a pair of speakers to listen in my system. I'm not going to buy anything but one of the guys who attended is Really interested in the amp.

Anyway i'll let you know how it goes. I think it is Amazing that there are so Many talented people around who never get recognised for their work.

regards

rod

Very cool Rod! I completely agree about the last sentence. I just discovered APL not too long ago, and Alex does some incredible mods and custom gear. Very nice stuff, but word is just going to really start getting around about him.

[WerTicus]

Jonl's point is a good one too... It is amazing at what you can get for far less than certainly was available before, thanks to small companies and thanks to diy

and the internet with its free information to educate otherwise... a lot of us would have bose gear