New preamplifier needed

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guest1632

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Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #20 on: 29 Apr 2011, 02:35 am »
I've always looked up to Frank's gear.

But it'd be interesting to know what makes Franks a few steps above the others, circuitrywise. Do CJ use regulation in their power supplier? I am sure some other manufacturers do.

Hi, I think it's what's in the circuit that has been the Hallmark of Frank's stuff. Certainly, CJ has regulation in there supplies. It's just how Frank sets up his supplies that make his stuff unique. It's just good ol' engineering practices that make his stuff sound good.

Ray Bronk

avahifi

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #21 on: 29 Apr 2011, 07:56 pm »
Actually the Transcendence Eight+ vacuum tube preamplifier has eight regulated power supplies:

Four high voltage high speed +275V DC analog regulated power supplies, one for each plate of each 6CG7 tube.

A +12V DC analog regulated power supply for the tube heaters. The board is configured so that with minor changes either 6V or 12 volt tubes can be used (but not both at the same time).

Regulated +12V DC and -12V DC power supplies for the solid state sections (the optional tape buffer, phase inverter or phono sections).

Regulated +5V supplies for the time delay mute circuit and the remote control motor drive circuits.

Four more regulated +275V supplies for those that would rather have the optional vacuum tube phono section (solid state phono is $100 less expensive and is recommended - - -  we just like it better, especially in combination with the vacuum tube line section).  Note that if another option in addition to the phono circuits are requested, then the vacuum tube phono section much be used, not enough chassis space for two solid state optional circuits at the same time.

I can't think of another preamp with as sophisticated and encompassing power supply as we have designed into the Transcendence Eight+, with the possible exception of our Avastar hybrid preamp, which uses three regulated power supplies per channel per section.

Listen and you will see the difference, and hear it too.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine










jtwrace

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Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #22 on: 29 Apr 2011, 09:48 pm »
I can't think of another preamp with as sophisticated and encompassing power supply

Really?  I can think of many...

Brett Buck

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Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #23 on: 29 Apr 2011, 11:47 pm »
Really?  I can think of many...

  Fantastic! Post the schematics so we can all enjoy this advanced information!

    Brett

avahifi

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #24 on: 30 Apr 2011, 12:37 am »
OK Mr. Race, name some and pray tell me what you know about their power supplies.  :)

Just bigger and more capacitors (even wonder capacitors) just does not cut it.

Frank Van Alstine

Listens2tubes

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #25 on: 30 Apr 2011, 02:42 am »
 :o Frank's calling out Mr Race. Put up or ....

I've said it before: If you are in the New Jersey area and would like to hear a T8+ just contact me.

Neal

modular747

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Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #26 on: 30 Apr 2011, 06:32 am »
Really?  I can think of many...

Well, none of those "many" will include any C-J model, not even by the "standard" of their marketing dept.

trebejo

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #27 on: 30 Apr 2011, 08:20 am »
So, let me guess... we are not going to get a list of many other preamps that have "as sophisticated and encompassing power supply" as a T8 or Avastar?

Gimme that list, I have a pile of franklins and I'm off to audiogon to get myself a real sophisticated power supply!

btw I met a guy that loves Frank's products and he did not own an Avastar or Avanything for a preamp. He had a different preamp and he loved it. I am sure I would love it too, but I doubt that even $10k would get you his preamp (new)--hence I do not consider such a piece a proper counterexample... and for all I know, the power supply in that beast is not as sophisticated or encompassing as our usual suspect's.  :icon_twisted:

Frankly, after Frank's long and detailed enumeration of each power supply, down to its function and operating voltage, to pick on a throwaway sentence that may be literally true (it may very well be the case that Frank "can't think of another preamp with as sophisticated and encompassing power supply")... well to pick on that and not celebrate the rest is petty, sour, pointless and effing bad manners.

There, I said it. But it doesn't matter because we're not going to get the list, are we?

clipped

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Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #28 on: 30 Apr 2011, 10:36 am »
So let me guess, no-one is interested in an Ulra pre without phono?  :lol:

rcag_ils

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Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #29 on: 30 Apr 2011, 03:22 pm »
Quote
Really?  I can think of many...

We should be happy that Frank's kind enough to share with us some detail description of the circuits in his product to satisfy the techical minded. Other manufacturers won't do that.

In the early audio ads, they might have mentioned how many active parts were in the box (like Threshold, 22 pairs of TO-3s), but they rarely told people what did those parts do, then onto how good they sounded.

trebejo

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #30 on: 30 Apr 2011, 11:37 pm »
We should be happy that Frank's kind enough to share with us some detail description of the circuits in his product to satisfy the techical minded. Other manufacturers won't do that.

Heck yeah. Nice not only to potential customers, but specially to fellow designers.  :wink:

I'm still waiting for jtwrace to provide us with even one example of a non-AVA preamp "with as sophisticated and encompassing power supply". There is bound to be one somewhere, but he claims he "can think of many..." He just can't seem to think of posting the list.

At this point it would appear that we are just waiting for the lame excuse. I hope he does not recycle the one about how the margin is too small to give a detailed explanation. We are probably just not worthy of being enlightened...  :cry:

Listens2tubes

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #31 on: 1 May 2011, 03:19 am »
Forget the rest - get the best - fullfill the need! http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=92726.0 :thumb:





 :oops: Shameless self promotion.


 :o Whoa! I almost forgot!

DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!

DustyC

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #32 on: 1 May 2011, 04:55 am »
Just a hunch, but the CJ "Classic" has just 2 tubes in it and outputs thru a mosfet, I doubt if it has that classic CJ tube sound. Try a vintage PV5, 8, or 12. If it floats your boat, great, if not then sell it and go for the AVA.
C-J's service is great and they'll work on the vintage stuff.

rcag_ils

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Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #33 on: 1 May 2011, 02:12 pm »
Quote
Just a hunch, but the CJ "Classic" has just 2 tubes in it and outputs thru a mosfet, I doubt if it has that classic CJ tube sound.

Now we have to redefine what "tube sound" is.

Years ago, "tube sound" to me was something like the sound coming out of an old Heathkit amp. After listening to the AVA tube amps and preamp for so long, I pretty much threw "tube sound" out of my audio dictionary. AVA are just accurate sounding. If your tube amp/preamp has the "tube sound", something is wrong.

trebejo

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #34 on: 2 May 2011, 10:00 pm »
Really?  I can think of many...

Come ON dude, it has been FOUR DAYS. PLEASE TELL US ABOUT THESE MANY EXAMPLES YOU CAN THINK OF.

mark funk

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #35 on: 3 May 2011, 10:07 am »
It must be a long list. Can't wait to read it. I think we well have to wait a long time, RIGHT! Like never RIGHT!
 

                                                                                     :smoke:

Big Red Machine

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #36 on: 3 May 2011, 11:04 am »
It appears as if you guys are acting like fanboys and taunting folks to come fight on your turf.  That's what it looks like from the outside.  Not sure anyone is comfortable doing that. 

And for the record, I didn't see any details in Frank's description to convince me his power supplies were more robust than other preamp makers.  Just an observation.  I don't have a dog in this.

avahifi

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #37 on: 3 May 2011, 02:14 pm »
OK Red, probably nothing will satisfy you, but I will try; my version of Obama's birth certificate.  :)

In a conventional RC power supply the output impedance is about 800 ohms or thereabouts.

In a more sophisticated shunt zener regulated supply, that output impedance drops to about 10 ohms.

In an active regulated power supply, properly designed, the output impedance can be less than 1 ohm.

When the active device that the supply is powering draws current, it causes a voltage drop across the supply output.  The larger the output impedance of the power supply, the greater the voltage drop.  This actually is imparting a small version of the audio signal at an unintended place in the circuit.  If more that one active node is supplied by a common supply then the unintended signal is mixed and sent to all nodes.  There is name for this - - -  distortion.  The level of the mixed audio signal floating around on all the common supply nodes is very very small. We can't actually measure it on our test equipment.  However, it is really really easy to evaluate and hear when you build two identical audio circuits, one with a conventional RC supply, the other with multiple very low output impedance regulated supplies. One regulated supply is good, one per channel better, one per tube better yet, or, as we have done, one low impedance regulated power supply for each plate of each tube used in the unit.

This sir, is what nobody else had done that we know of.  Sorry, giant wonder caps don't help, their output impedance is determined by their nature, not whatever purple prose has been used to sell them at grossly inflated prices to suckers.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine
« Last Edit: 3 May 2011, 05:13 pm by avahifi »

rcag_ils

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Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #38 on: 3 May 2011, 03:08 pm »
Quote
And for the record, I didn't see any details in Frank's description to convince me his power supplies were more robust than other preamp makers.

Red, I don't like to pry into Frank's design secret, so Frank's previous message stating how many regulated supplies were in the box was good enough for me. Since some manufacturers only use regulated supply for the tube heater.

Now Frank's even telling us how and why he designed them in such a way, it's even more detail.

I wonder if Frank could teach me how to put a few more regulated supplies in that "one off" Super Pas 3 that I bought. I think now it only has one shared by all the circuits. I love that preamp.

avahifi

Re: New preamplifier needed
« Reply #39 on: 3 May 2011, 05:25 pm »
Assuming you are talking about a Super Pas Three in the original Dyna PAS chassis, it will likely not be cost effective for you to try more power supply upgrades in this unit.

The problem is that you will run out of power transformer current capability and headroom.  You really need a higher current and higher voltage power transformer to supply multiple B+ regulators.

By the time you change transformers and build your own custom power supply board, you will probably be spending nearly as much as just shopping for a used AVA T8 preamp (17" version) that easily can be upgraded to newest T8+ specifications.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine