X-Statik Driver Upgrade if price no object!

omega · « **on:** 20 Apr 2011, 08:49 pm »

Hi,
I am loving the Statik, but wanted to upgrade the drivers to something like scan speak or other low distortion driver. If price is no object, what are my choices?

TIA,

Cheers!

S Clark · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Apr 2011, 11:05 pm »

This really isn't an option. All the drivers match the crossover in a way that make it very unlikely that a different set will work remotely as well. What you can do is upgrade crossover components to make an audible difference. I'd start with the tweeter and replace the in line 12uF cap with a Sonicap Gen I and bypass with Sonicap Platinums. That is only 4 caps and would be a low cost upgrade. If you like what you hear, change out the rest of the tweeter circuit and the mid circuit. I'd be tempted to leave the bass circuit alone.

I don't know what the stock interior padding is made of, but you might be able to upgrade that as well.

The X-Statiks are excellent quality speakers at a very low price, and you will be hard pressed to improve upon them without a significant outlay of $- perhaps 2X or more.
Scott

usp1 · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 01:13 am »

You may want to look at the skiingninja's upgrades.

http://www.skiingninja.com/category-s/117.htm

Danny Richie · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 03:17 am »

Yeah, you can't just change out drivers without a crossover redesign.

Even still I don't know what I'd change them to. Scan Speak doesn't make any drivers that sound any better that could be used in that application. And I have tried most of the better ones. Trust me, those a great drivers.

Also, distortion measurements won't really tell you anything about how a driver will sound. There is no industry standard or consistency in trying to measure that and it is not even possible to do so with any accuracy outside of an anechoic chamber. Some may even have a low measured distortion and still sound bad.

Scott is correct. You can upgrade the crossover parts and really bring them up several levels.

Lining them with No Rez can take them up a notch as well (tighter, cleaner bass).

omega · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 11:41 am »

I apologize, I should have stated this in my initial message. I am running them Tri-Amped active with MiniDSP. Danny and Scott thank you for your quick reply. The plan is to replace MiniDSP with DEQX, apply No Rez, some felt for diffraction control, and if possible change the drivers to take my existing setup to the next level.

X-Statik is an awesome platform, one of the best designed speaker, OB + Sealed enclosure hybrid can't beat that!

I am very happy with my current setup but wanted to see if it can be improved!

My current setup:
Logitech Transporter -> ([NAD C162 -> MiniDSP] Test Setup)/DEQX -> 3 NAD C272 150W/Ch.

Area of improvement:
As you can see I am pushing a lot of power through those drivers, so when I crank it up it gets distorted!

TIA for your recommendations,

Cheers!

Danny Richie · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 01:56 pm »

Actually if you want to go to another level with it then I would get away from that source and the DEQX. The DAC's used in that thing can be quite the bottleneck. A little Mac Mini as a server and a good quality DAC through the passive crossover will eat it alive.

When you push it hard it is not likely the drivers giving out at all. Your distortion is likely coming from your amps. I have had far more power than that hooked to them with no issues at all.

The NAD is not exactly what I'd call musical either. You might find a better alternative.

omega · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 03:45 pm »

Danny I respect your opinion, but I am a skeptic when it comes to electronics making a big difference. There may be subtle differences but still the speaker is the weakest link in the chain.

Ironically, I started out with Mac Mini and Benchmark DAC. Even though the system sounded great but was limited when it comes to customization that I desired to improve usability. SqueezeBox being an open source platform lends itself to a lot of customization and better user experience. Sound wise, it makes more difference if I move the speakers 6" closer or away then changing source components.

Over the years with countless auditions and Audio shows I noticed that I like warmer sound from the likes of Sonus Faber or Vienna Acoustics. I have been bitten multiple times by buying speakers on recommendations from both internet and the dealers. That's where the DIY club comes to the rescue. I am good with electronics but wood work is not my forte. So I decided to buy speaker with good solid platform and change the timbre to my liking by going active.

Hence comes the X-Statik with Gr-Research doing the design work and good support on the forum. The passive crossover sounded good but was not to my taste in the room. I didn't wanted to buy DEQX without running some tests to see if going active is the solution. So the miniDSP setup is the test bench.

At this point I got the crossover setup, room treatment and speaker placement to my liking. For any further significant improvement I need to start working on the speaker like No Rez etc including drivers. All I am looking for is driver size specification, compatibility and any recommendation.

The existing peerless drivers are great, but all I am looking for is to do some experimentation by following specification.

Cheers!

Danny Richie · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 04:10 pm »

Quote

Ironically, I started out with Mac Mini and Benchmark DAC. Even though the system sounded great but was limited when it comes to customization that I desired to improve usability. SqueezeBox being an open source platform lends itself to a lot of customization and better user experience.

I'd say that is more of a lateral move. And the Benchmark (while popular at the time) is not even in the ballpark with the better DAC's out there right now. And I have had one of them over here at one time. My old DAC-60 killed it.

And while the old Mac was a step up over my CEC transport, it isn't even close in performance to my new Mac Mini with the Mach2 Audio mods.

Quote

Danny I respect your opinion, but I am a skeptic when it comes to electronics making a big difference. There may be subtle differences but still the speaker is the weakest link in the chain.

Truly, the speakers and the room are first, but in this past year digital has moved into a range that rivals the best vinyl playback rigs. I am still astounded by the performance gains that have just taken place. What is going on right now makes systems like the DEQX sound like a cassette player by comparison.

srb · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 04:26 pm »

Quote from: omega on 21 Apr 2011, 03:45 pm

All I am looking for is driver size specification, compatibility and any recommendation.

The existing peerless drivers are great, but all I am looking for is to do some experimentation by following specification.

If you're not using the original drivers or passive crossover network, all you have is a woofer box with an open baffle above it. I don't understand what the empty carcass would have to do with GR Research designs at this point?

It sounds like you want someone to design a new speaker from scratch to fit the existing enclosure. It's usually done the other way around. What "specification" are you wanting to follow?

Steve

S Clark · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 04:54 pm »

Quote from: omega on 21 Apr 2011, 03:45 pm

Hence comes the X-Statik with Gr-Research doing the design work and good support on the forum. The passive crossover sounded good but was not to my taste in the room.

Let's try again. The X-Statiks are designed with particular drivers. If you change the drivers, you are not likely to have results as good as where you started. If they are not to your taste, sell them and start over. If "price is no object" buy what you like instead of trying to make one speaker into another. You are right about good support for the GR products, but what you are asking for is for someone to help you redesign a new speaker.
However, if you are determined to slap some other drivers in, by all means do so. For between $4K-$5K Madisound will sell you some Accutron woofers that should fit nicely. Seriously, there are some ScanS that go for around $180 that might work for the lower woofers but won't work for the open baffle https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_256&products_id=931

omega · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 10:30 pm »

Quote from: Danny on 21 Apr 2011, 04:10 pm

I'd say that is more of a lateral move. And the Benchmark (while popular at the time) is not even in the ballpark with the better DAC's out there right now. And I have had one of them over here at one time. My old DAC-60 killed it.

And while the old Mac was a step up over my CEC transport, it isn't even close in performance to my new Mac Mini with the Mach2 Audio mods.

Truly, the speakers and the room are first, but in this past year digital has moved into a range that rivals the best vinyl playback rigs. I am still astounded by the performance gains that have just taken place. What is going on right now makes systems like the DEQX sound like a cassette player by comparison.

Thanks for your suggestions, I'll re-evaluate my choices and may go active crossover with Mac Mini. I haven't bought DEQX yet and this is the type of suggestion I was looking for. But the main question still remains i.e. speaker drivers!

persisting1 · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 10:42 pm »

Won't be cheap, but have Danny redesign your x-statiks with the drivers you want.

omega · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 11:16 pm »

Quote from: srb on 21 Apr 2011, 04:26 pm

If you're not using the original drivers or passive crossover network, all you have is a woofer box with an open baffle above it. I don't understand what the empty carcass would have to do with GR Research designs at this point?

It sounds like you want someone to design a new speaker from scratch to fit the existing enclosure. It's usually done the other way around. What "specification" are you wanting to follow?

Steve

I think enclosure is what makes a design. Crossover and drivers are mathematical exercise with subjective tweaking. A computer can recommend a crossover network if all the required parameters are provided. Will it sound good? I don't know...

My Specification:
Enclosure: Check
Crossover (Variable): Check
Drivers: <Please recommend a driver that will fit>

omega · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 11:46 pm »

Quote from: S Clark on 21 Apr 2011, 04:54 pm

Let's try again. The X-Statiks are designed with particular drivers. If you change the drivers, you are not likely to have results as good as where you started. If they are not to your taste, sell them and start over. If "price is no object" buy what you like instead of trying to make one speaker into another. You are right about good support for the GR products, but what you are asking for is for someone to help you redesign a new speaker.
However, if you are determined to slap some other drivers in, by all means do so. For between $4K-$5K Madisound will sell you some Accutron woofers that should fit nicely. Seriously, there are some ScanS that go for around $180 that might work for the lower woofers but won't work for the open baffle https://www.madisound.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=45_228_256&products_id=931

Scott,
As you know that every product is designed with a price point in mind. Every designer has to do some compromises between price and performance. If it wasn't the case, there would have been no crossover and enclosure upgrades available.

If you have to develop the X-Statik again minus the price limitation what driver would you have selected?

I am very happy with my current setup, I haven't like anything under $10k with passive crossover that I drool over. The crossover is tweaked to my liking for my environment. I assumed by now there must be more drivers on the market that may not be there at the time of its design.

If you guys can recommend drivers or parameters that I should use to search for one, will be a great help.

Thank you for the above recommendations. Accutron looks very interesting!

Cheers!

omega · « **Reply #14 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 11:47 pm »

Quote from: persisting1 on 21 Apr 2011, 10:42 pm

Won't be cheap, but have Danny redesign your x-statiks with the drivers you want.

Not looking to redesign, already have the enclosure and crossover. Just need driver recommendations.

S Clark · « **Reply #15 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 12:34 am »

The Accutrons that I've heard really are quite good drivers in the right application- just incredibly expensive. I really think that you are doing this backward, but if you are going to do this, here is what is needed:

1. Design goals. Full range (tough to do with that size woofer in sealed bass)? Supplement with sub? Priorities for mids (fingernails on blackboard clarity to soft to the point of muddy) Do you want to keep that tweeter? (it's good, but obviously there are better but they may not fit the hole)
2. Budget
3. Do you want to do it all yourself, what is your skill level? Have you ever designed speakers before? Do you have tools? The woofer holes are cut for a surface mount woofer, most of your options will have to be recessed- you will need a router, bits, and a circle jig.
4. Do you have access to calibrated measuring equipment? Without it, you can't really tell what is happening.
Good luck with you project.

smilach · « **Reply #16 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 12:36 am »

Quote from: omega on 21 Apr 2011, 11:47 pm

Not looking to redesign, already have the enclosure and crossover. Just need driver recommendations.

The crossover must be designed to the electrical and mechanical characteristics of the specific drivers, the enclosure or lack thereof, and how the drivers interact with each other both sonically and electronically as well as how they interact with the enclosure. Changing the drivers while failing to account for these other variables and interactions is a roll of the dice at best. Danny and several other members have tactfully suggested that you are out of your depth and embarking on a fool's errand. I'm sorry if the answer isn't what you want to hear, but they are offering you sound advice. If you want a different advice, try a different forum.

Danny Richie · « **Reply #17 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 12:57 am »

It is true that the drivers and cabinet design will dictate the crossover. You can't start with the crossover and work around it to get anywhere. Even designing digital crossovers requires drivers and cabinet design first.

I do have a colleague working on a true digital crossover solution using the best quality parts and DAC's available. It would cost a consumer about $6,000 for the set up. It will just flat out cost that much for that many channels of high quality output.

Regarding the X-Statik. The tweeter is right up there with the best domes on the market. There is really nothing you can do that will be a clear step up. At that level the caps make a bigger difference than the difference between various top level tweeters.

The woofers will be really tough to beat for that application with anything off the shelf.

It sounds like what you are really looking for is the X-Optima and X-Otica designs that are in the works. Stay tuned.

omega · « **Reply #18 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 02:58 am »

Quote from: smilach on 22 Apr 2011, 12:36 am

The crossover must be designed to the electrical and mechanical characteristics of the specific drivers, the enclosure or lack thereof, and how the drivers interact with each other both sonically and electronically as well as how they interact with the enclosure. Changing the drivers while failing to account for these other variables and interactions is a roll of the dice at best. Danny and several other members have tactfully suggested that you are out of your depth and embarking on a fool's errand. I'm sorry if the answer isn't what you want to hear, but they are offering you sound advice. If you want a different advice, try a different forum.

Criticism is always welcome, but I think my point is not conveyed properly judging from your first sentence. I have an electronic crossover with 6db/octave to 48db/octave slopes and choice of LW, BW and Bessel. I can add delay for time alignment and EQ individual driver for correction.

What I am trying to get to is that I can change the crossover on the fly. I am not trying to stick to the existing setting. When I will get the new drivers installed I'll change the crossover appropriately.

This is not the first time somebody is doing this:

1) Same setup as mine except he is using DIY OB. I'll use most of the measurement techniques from this article.
http://www.hifizine.com/2011/03/refining-a-4-way-open-baffle-speaker-minidsp-2x4/

2) Entire site dedicated to active setup. It also includes subjective evaluation of the three major available platform
http://redspade-audio.blogspot.com/

omega · « **Reply #19 on:** 22 Apr 2011, 03:22 am »

Quote from: S Clark on 22 Apr 2011, 12:34 am

The Accutrons that I've heard really are quite good drivers in the right application- just incredibly expensive. I really think that you are doing this backward, but if you are going to do this, here is what is needed:

1. Design goals. Full range (tough to do with that size woofer in sealed bass)? Supplement with sub? Priorities for mids (fingernails on blackboard clarity to soft to the point of muddy) Do you want to keep that tweeter? (it's good, but obviously there are better but they may not fit the hole)
2. Budget
3. Do you want to do it all yourself, what is your skill level? Have you ever designed speakers before? Do you have tools? The woofer holes are cut for a surface mount woofer, most of your options will have to be recessed- you will need a router, bits, and a circle jig.
4. Do you have access to calibrated measuring equipment? Without it, you can't really tell what is happening.
Good luck with you project.

Thats more like it

1. Design goals. Full range (tough to do with that size woofer in sealed bass)? Supplement with sub? Priorities for mids (fingernails on blackboard clarity to soft to the point of muddy) Do you want to keep that tweeter? (it's good, but obviously there are better but they may not fit the hole)

1=> I have stereo NHT U2 setup with two 12" aluminum in sealed enclosure with external amps. They are not connected to the system at the moment. The current extension is flat down to 60hz and I am satisfied with it. So 60hz to 20khz will do

Bass: Need powerful bass not necessarily the extension but amplitude
Midrange: gotta be soft but not to the point of muddy (Rock music recordings are usually pretty bad, less listening fatigue is better)
Tweeter: Not married to the existing one even though its pretty good. Again less congested is better considering the style of music I play

2. Budget

2=>I wanted to buy Sonus Faber Luito ~$6000 (new) minus $1200 I spent so far on the X-Statik + amp + calibration setup so $4800 to play.

3. Do you want to do it all yourself, what is your skill level? Have you ever designed speakers before? Do you have tools? The woofer holes are cut for a surface mount woofer, most of your options will have to be recessed- you will need a router, bits, and a circle jig.

3=>I cannot do wood work, no space and no skill. Rest I can handle easily, I work on my cars myself so pretty handy. Can only do electric and electronics. This is where I need your help. I need the drivers that can fit perfectly in the existing space...

4. Do you have access to calibrated measuring equipment? Without it, you can't really tell what is happening.
Good luck with you project.

4=> I have a calibrated mic. good USB external sound card running variety of software from RoomEQ wizard to Holm Impulse. I can buy more if so recommended.