Revive the system change thread?

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Big Red Machine

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #100 on: 15 Sep 2011, 05:05 pm »
Here is a thorough write-up of how I got to this point in power conditioning.

Let’s talk a bit about noise reduction and what power conditioning can do for you.  I, of course, took longer than normal to get this right.  I tried to outsmart you and in the end outsmarted myself!

Remember that my mono blocks are up front and the rack is to the left of me.  In order to facilitate this layout I ran all my front end devices into the BPT BP2 unit.  Those devices are Touch power supply, preamp, dac, computer, and monitor.  At the stat of this exercise I wrongfully thought the BP2 was only capable of 7.5 amps. 

I had branched my 20 amp line to the right side of the room to allow me to use the same circuit for the mono blocks without having to run power cords across the room from left to right.  This made sense to use the Felixes in-between each circuit outlet and the amps.  So I made up 4 short power cables to daisy chain these devices together.  So this being my original plan after the Samsons arrived, I set this in motion with the Felixes on the amps but only felt a slight improvement if any.  Just a small reduction in noise.

I needed something “more” here as the sound was great but still a little noisy for my tastes.  Remember when I started the thread in the Hi rez circle about good recordings and if they were noisy?  Doh.  Still didn’t get it.  Sooooo, being the fartsmeller that I am, I purchased a Synergistic Research PowerCell 4 unit from Mike Garner at TweegGeek to use on the amplifiers.  After all, the BP2 was only capable of 7.5 amps and I couldn’t overload it with the big mono blocks in the loop.  I would also need some monstrously long power cables to run all the way back to the BPT at the rack to feed the amps.

What I found out quickly with the SR unit was that it was more like a shot of vitamins to the system than it was noise reducer.  Being thick and slow I rode this pony for some time and enjoyed the energy kick that the PowerCell gave to the sound by just having the amplifiers hooked in (4 available plug in’s).  As time went on I was not satisfied with the background noise level but thrilled with the energy level.  So to add more key organs to the list to benefit from the vitamins I used a mediocre 12 foot PC I made some years back to also hook the dac into the PowerCell.  That seemed to add a little more spark and energy as well but the noise was still nagging at me.  And finally I tried the preamp into the PowerCell but it did not respond at all.  No change up or down.

By this time I was thinking that this is just not right and I need to get a much better solution in place.  How embarrassing that I still have noise!  I finally thought to actually measure the current draw from my amps.  I cranked the volume a few clicks higher than normal and put on some bass heavy tunes of several varieties and discovered that they peaked out on the bass-heavy portions at about 1.5 amps.  [One thing I did learn is that the wall voltage is lower through the PowerCell by 2.5 volts than through the BPT.]  At this point I still am thinking the BPT is 7.5 amps max but with only 3 amps from the mono blocks, how bad could the whole system load really be if I had it louder than normal to get those figures?

So I got all engineering-like and decided to fully flesh out all the cards I presently had before I dropped back to punt.  I decided to run a little DOE of my own:

1.   Front end gear to BPT and amps through PowerCell – baseline listen
2.   Front end to BPT and PowerCell for amps fed by the BPT
3.   Everything to the BPT with no PowerCell
4.   BPT as the main supplier but with the PowerCell out of the BPT and feeding the dac
5.   The PowerCell feeding the BPT, all devices into the BPT
6.   Similar to #4 but with the preamp and Touch PS also fed by the PowerCell
7.   Repeat #3

As you can imagine, this took more than a week to perform.  I spent an evening with each configuration.  Laborious for sure but very interesting.  My primary mission was to keep the energy as high as I could but also kill that noise.  (or die trying dammit – did I tell you about me twisting one of diy PC’s so hard I shorted the hot to ground and received quite the tingle?  She and I are best friends now.)

#1 – so yeah, the baseline.  Lots of energy but a level of audible noise and hash as well as an irritation after an hour or so that made you wince ever so slightly.  Really pressed the tweeters into action beyond their musical purpose.  But hey, it was what I thought to be the best I could get.

#2 – an improvement with less noise, slightly less dynamic, and improved bass response.  What the heck?!  I might be onto something here.

#3 – Here are my notes:  good bass, good soundstage, good clarity, can sense a little less energy or top end the PowerCell gives, NO NOISE!!!  That is what I wrote on my notepad.  All of a sudden I’m hearing a more organic sound, huge amounts of bass, a smoothness in the top end, and even more details than I had before – and with NO NOISE!!  Only the worst recording with analog hiss can be distracting but they were enjoyable.  Here’s the kicker, I was tapping my foot!!  I had not done that previously.  The electrons were all flowing nicely now.  Wow.  I’m such a putz.

So why not stop now?  Because I have this highly raved about SR unit and it must be good for something, right?  So let’s keep giving it a workout and see if it makes the team.

#4 – This was a really nice combo I wrote in my notes.  Noise level is very low, it is very musical, still toe-tapping good, and even more mid-range grunt and presence.  Maybe this will be the ticket.

#6 – I did this before I did #5.  This was a little hotter than #4 as you would expect with the attributes of the PowerCell unit.  I did not prefer it to #4 in the end.  A little too hot and reminiscent of the baseline.

#5 – This did nothing for me.  It was as if the PowerCell was not even in the loop.  Whatever the BPT was doing wiped out the PowerCell’s energy vitamins.

#7 – Ahhhh.  There it was again.  Yes, like a good…, well never mind.  Organic, rich, quiet (yes!), and with depth like I deserved.

So why not keep the PowerCell and go with #4?  I felt the expense of getting that energy could be offset by re-tubing the dac and preamp at a lower cost.  And don’t forget, I’m thinking at this point I need a bigger BPT due to my lowly 7.5 amps so selling this SR unit could offset the expense of a larger, bad a$$, fully trimmed, Signature unit at 20 amps!!!  Wooohaahaaahaaa

As it turns out I confirmed once again that I truly am a doofus and Chris Hoff verifies the BP2 is capable of 15 amps output so I will not have to purchase a larger unit.  I was glad to hear that because I liked my black unit and tweaks I had made to it.  Do I regret not keeping the PowerCell?  No, not really.  It seemed too high a price to energize just a dac.  So I put the money into my SoundScape fund.

What did I learn (besides me being a doofus, a putz, and slow)?  You have to try gizmos in your own systems to be sure, but for all the folks who have not tried balanced power, you may be in for a treat.  This really is the shiznit for overall enjoyable sound without the unwanted and vile noise that seems to be everywhere these days.  I used to say I had good AC, but I won’t say that any longer.

I have read a ton on these units in blogs by users to see what improvements, if any, folks are getting with which piece.  I have also now read all the reviews of BPT units and can concur that the reviews do express exactly how the sound changes (for the better) when you have one of these beasts in play.  This one in particular, if you read down through it, will convey what I felt and heard in my system.  He must have been reading my mind. http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bpt2/flagship.html
 
I can understand why some folks have taken their balanced power conditioners OUT of their systems and said they like the sound better.  They like the energy, or perceived energy, but I wonder if they will tire of this new “energy” and/or realize it may be noise that seems to add some air to the sound.  I don’t feel that much air has escaped from my system and the organic feel to the music completely outweighs any loss of “air”.

And speaking of air, this gas bag is signing off this discussion for now.  Go balanced, or go home!!

Big Red Machine

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #101 on: 16 Sep 2011, 02:19 pm »
So after the above evaluation of power conditioning units I am back to using my Porter Port equipped box as a junction between the BPT and the amps.  No longer have the PowerCell 4.

I've bounced around the idea of building a 2 receptacle unit with Tesla Plex receptacles in a weighted steel box to replace the box above.  Might even hardwire the cable to it.






catastrofe

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Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #102 on: 16 Sep 2011, 02:24 pm »
Pete, I love my BPT Ultra unit.  The only thing I can think of that might be an improvement is a regenerator, like the APS units.  With those units, I'm concerned about fan noise.  The PS Audio P10 is fan-less, but doesn't put out enough power for my peace-of-mind.

Big Red Machine

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #103 on: 16 Sep 2011, 02:28 pm »
I had an APS 1050 once and it worked great and the fan never came on to my knowledge.  So dang expensive to try one out to see if it matters now.

The battery back up thing was cool to demo.  I never did have a power outage when I had it. 8)

zybar

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Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #104 on: 16 Sep 2011, 03:06 pm »
Nice write-up Pete.

I did what you described a while back and came to pretty much the same conclusions.  In my case I was achieving balanced power and power conditioing via a FurmanSound IT-REFERENCE 20i balanced conditioner and a Pi Audio UberBuss.  Here are the scenarios I investigated:

1.  Everything (amps, speakers, preamp, digital front end) plugged into a FurmanSound IT-REFERENCE 20i conditioner, which is plugged into a dedicated 20 amp line

2.  Everything (amps, speakers, preamp, digital front end) plugged into a FurmanSound IT-REFERENCE 20i conditioner, which is plugged into an UberBuss, which is plugged into a dedicated 20 amp line

3.  Amps plugged into the wall and everything else plugged into a FurmanSound IT-REFERENCE 20i conditioner, which is plugged into an UberBuss, which is plugged into a dedicated 20 amp line

4.  Amps and speakers plugged into the UberBuss and everything else plugged into a FurmanSound IT-REFERENCE 20i conditioner, with each plugged into the dedicated 20 amp line

5.  Preamp and digital front end plugged into the UberBuss and everything else plugged into a FurmanSound IT-REFERENCE 20i conditioner, with each plugged into the dedicated 20 amp line

Option #2 (the combination of the UberBuss feeding the FurmanSound IT-REFERENCE 20i) provided the lowest noise floor, best detail, widest soundstage (width and depth), and best overall sound.  It allows me to listen for hours at a time with no fatigue and most importantly, I just enjoy the music more! 

Sounds like you are reaching that same place Pete.  Congrats!

George

Big Red Machine

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #105 on: 16 Sep 2011, 05:28 pm »
I am not happy it took me so long, but when I finally put the BPT in front of all the gear... it was obvious at that point. :duh:

Big Red Machine

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #106 on: 23 Oct 2011, 06:24 pm »
I have an Aesthetix-Janus preamp in the system today on loan from a friend who is modifying the piece with the iRule software.

http://aesthetix.net/saturn.php?product=janus

This is a $10,000 preamp and it is not very good.  Super clean in the midrange, no bass, and strident highs.  I am going to let her run for a few days and see if it just needs some time.  I am not sure if it is already broken in by it's original owner.

Plus it is noisy.  Boggles my mind.

Can't wait to hook the Dude back into the system.

jtwrace

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Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #107 on: 23 Oct 2011, 06:28 pm »
Can't wait to hook the Dude back into the system.

Good news!  Mine arrives this week...

Big Red Machine

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #108 on: 23 Oct 2011, 06:32 pm »
Good news!  Mine arrives this week...

Black, wasn't it?

jtwrace

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Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #109 on: 23 Oct 2011, 06:32 pm »

jtwrace

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Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #110 on: 23 Oct 2011, 06:51 pm »
BRM

The shipping crate weighs 100 lbs.  Doesn't the Dude weigh 40 lbs?   :scratch:

Big Red Machine

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #111 on: 23 Oct 2011, 06:59 pm »
I'd say it is more than 40 lbs.  That 1 inch front faceplate probably is 20 lbs by itself.  The panels are all 1/4 inch thick plate and joined with corner brackets.  The crate is 1/2 inch OSB with feet and probably goes 40 lbs.  I have 3 of those crates in the house now.  Try storing them!

jtwrace

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Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #112 on: 23 Oct 2011, 07:02 pm »
I'd say it is more than 40 lbs.  That 1 inch front faceplate probably is 20 lbs by itself.  The panels are all 1/4 inch thick plate and joined with corner brackets.  The crate is 1/2 inch OSB with feet and probably goes 40 lbs.  I have 3 of those crates in the house now.  Try storing them!

OK.  So unpacking the unit in the garage is definetely the way to go.   8)

jtwrace

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Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #113 on: 23 Oct 2011, 07:21 pm »
Have you tried any tube rolling in the Dude?

Big Red Machine

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #114 on: 24 Oct 2011, 12:24 pm »
No significant changes or improvements in the sound after 18 hours.  Maybe those Electroharmonix tubes are not helping this sound.  I assume they are stock tubes for this preamp.

I have an Aesthetix-Janus preamp in the system today on loan from a friend who is modifying the piece with the iRule software.

http://aesthetix.net/saturn.php?product=janus

This is a $10,000 preamp and it is not very good.  Super clean in the midrange, no bass, and strident highs.  I am going to let her run for a few days and see if it just needs some time.  I am not sure if it is already broken in by it's original owner.

Plus it is noisy.  Boggles my mind.

Can't wait to hook the Dude back into the system.

jtwrace

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Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #115 on: 24 Oct 2011, 12:33 pm »
No significant changes or improvements in the sound after 18 hours.  Maybe those Electroharmonix tubes are not helping this sound.  I assume they are stock tubes for this preamp.

I've never in my experience had a component that I didn't like that changed enough with tubes that changed my mind. 

Big Red Machine

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #116 on: 24 Oct 2011, 12:36 pm »
Have you tried any tube rolling in the Dude?

The stock tubes are good but then again, Paul may have something new for you to try that differ from my RCA's.  I like the GE GTB's I have but they are failing.  I have 2 pairs of Sylvanias that are essentially identical in sound, one a GTA pair and one a GTB pair.

I may sell my Black Treasures as they were exceptionally smooth but not energetic enough for my tastes.

I must say that the Dude is an awesome piece.  So musical and quietly powerful in its delivery.  Shames all the preamps I have owned up til now.

jtwrace

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Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #117 on: 24 Oct 2011, 12:43 pm »
I may sell my Black Treasures as they were exceptionally smooth but not energetic enough for my tastes.
:scratch:

Quote
I must say that the Dude is an awesome piece.  So musical and quietly powerful in its delivery.  Shames all the preamps I have owned up til now.
:hyper:

fsimms

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #118 on: 24 Oct 2011, 01:19 pm »
Quote
his is a $10,000 preamp and it is not very good.  Super clean in the midrange, no bass, and strident highs.

Yea, but that little thing in your hand is a remote control.  :thumb:


Big Red Machine

Re: Revive the system change thread?
« Reply #119 on: 24 Oct 2011, 02:47 pm »
Yea, but that little thing in your hand is a remote control.  :thumb:

Yeah, my arms are about 12 inches too short to reach those knobs.  Al, my photog thinks the Dude is fugly.  But he was sure rocking out in the sweet-spot to his selection of tunes after everyone had left.