Placement makes big difference in VR-33's

kirch · « **on:** 18 Mar 2011, 08:59 pm »

Hi all - been playing the new 33s for a couple weeks now. Started with them 9' apart and 6" away from the back wall. (Room is 13.5' x 25'.) Good sound but figured it should be much better. Moved them out to about 16" from the back wall and big improvement in imaging, bass, everything. Today I moved them to 8' apart and back to 14" from the rear wall. Even more focused. Everything sounds better. Amazing detail and 3 dimensional. Not sure how much more noodling with placement there will be. Seems pretty right on now. They don't have that obvious planar "sparkle" but they sure do have that patented planar imaging, IMHO.

Very pleased thus far. Anyone else?

Albert Von Schweikert · « **Reply #1 on:** 20 Mar 2011, 07:19 am »

Hello VR-33 Owners,

Thanks for your purchase and support of the VR-33 speaker system. This has been the best selling speaker system we have ever offered, with such a high sales volume that we had to move into a larger building and hire more personnel to accommodate the demand. Thanks to you, this speaker has altered the high end speaker industry in many ways.

Our VR-33 Instruction Manual does not go into great detail about speaker placement, since I felt that most audiophiles would naturally want to try different placements in their rooms. However, as with any high performance speaker system, the VR-33 can be made to sound either mediocre or incredible, solely based on placement.

Based on feedback from end users, I am going to write a very detailed Manual, with a very strong emphasis on how the speaker interacts with the room and what you can do to optimize the sound reproduction. While I'm at it, I'll put in some details I've found that you can use to upgrade the sound of your entire system. I will publish the new VR-33 Owners Manual at our website so you VR-33 owners can download it for further experimentation with your system. The new Manual should be available by the end of March.

Happy Listening,
Albert

DARTH AUDIO · « **Reply #2 on:** 20 Mar 2011, 01:40 pm »

Thanks Albert.. That's great news. Continued customer service!! Can't beat that

pardales · « **Reply #3 on:** 20 Mar 2011, 02:56 pm »

Good news, indeed.

kirch · « **Reply #4 on:** 25 Mar 2011, 12:05 pm »

As with a lot of us, the speakers tend to get moved into place when the opportunity arises, then put back closer to the wall when "normal" listening is the best we can do. The "normal" position is the point of this post.

The 33's are currently 16" from the side wall and just 8" from the rear. (As mentioned earlier, the room is 13.25" wide.) Listened to a couple hours of classical last night while reading and I have to say The Firebird Suite and Copeland's Fanfare etc. were nothing short of amazing. Pure pleasure. I had to stop reading often and simply sit there and just take in the music. I've been neglecting classical since I got these, big mistake! They shine with that genre!

Beginning to see how flexible and/or forgiving they can be with placement. I'm sure I'm also getting used to their sound, and they're breaking in nicely as well.

Drglenn · « **Reply #5 on:** 16 Apr 2011, 03:48 pm »

I live about 15 minutes away from Albert's factory. I have heard the VR-33 both there and also with my own personal pair at my home in my dedicated audio room. I have now known Albert for over 25 years.

We played with the position both at the factory in Albert's new Listening Room and then went back to my home to make a similar change. That change was to play with toe in, something I originally understood was not needed. Unfortunately, I have a very large enclosed equipment stand between the speakers that seemed to interfere with the soundfield. My room dimensions are not optimal (currently renting, but will be buying a house this year to change this) measuring about 13 feet x 25 feet, but due to logistics and room layout, I have to sit looking at the 25' wall, not the 13', so I am rather closer to the speakers than I would like. I have cathedral ceilings which helps reduce bass standing waves. In my room, I also have the speakers about 8 feet apart measured from the inside portion of each speaker and 12 5/8 inches from the front wall to the rear of the speaker.

The toe in I found optimal is somewhere between 1/4 to 1/3rd of the way in from straight ahead to having each speaker pointing at each of my respective ears. In my room and set up, it made a HUGE DIFFERENCE! Probably due to my less than optimal set-up, I was lacking adequate depth and soundstage focus as well as having a very limited "sweet spot". Now I have massive amounts of soundstage depth, focus, and an enormous sweet spot. The sound is now extremely coherent.

Once you get the distances between each speaker dialed in and then the distance from the front wall to the rear of the speaker to dial in the best bass balance, my advice is to play with toe-in starting with the suggested amounts provided above.

I hope that helps you and others as well!

Yours in Music,

Dr. Glenn
(Glenn A. Thomas, M.D.)

pardales · « **Reply #6 on:** 16 Apr 2011, 04:39 pm »

I am still working on placement with my 33's. Happy to entertain suggestions. I'll try toe-in last, I think, given Albert's recommendation.

I have an unusual room. 36x36 with a wood, cathedral ceiling reaching 18 ft at the apex. Wood floors, and plaster walls. I decided to try the Cardas set-up formulas and have the speakers approximately 9' 10" from the side walls and 16" from the wall behind the speakers.

The speakers sound good but I think are still breaking in. Bass is most impressive. Have about 250 hours on them. Voices don't sound quite real/present and things still sound a little congested. I am hoping this is break-in but I will be patient.

kirch · « **Reply #7 on:** 16 Apr 2011, 05:09 pm »

Interesting guys. One big difference for me is I don't really care to sit in a "sweet spot". Its a pain to move furniture here in the living room around etc. I'm just looking for the best place to afford optimal listening pleasure from where I normally sit which is about 16 feet away and slightly off center. So the toe in won't work for my situation.

For those like me, not in the sweet spot chair perfectly placed in the room, placement of 8' apart and 18" from the front wall works best for me.

And regarding the sound, I think the 33s are wonderful. Thing is, I've changed everything in the system, so I can't fairly compare them to my last setup which was all tube. I can say that I'm thrilled with what I hear from the latest iteration which is:

Wyred 4 Sound ST500 250/wpc amp, Bel Canto 2.5 DAC/pre, a simple Denon uni resale player mostly for SACDs and a squeezebox touch with all music in flac format.

Interconnects are Acoustic Zen and speaker cable is that darned near invisible and thin Mapleshade Helix.

cvictorg · « **Reply #8 on:** 16 Apr 2011, 05:29 pm »

Quote from: Albert Von Schweikert on 20 Mar 2011, 07:19 am

Hello VR-33 Owners,

Thanks for your purchase and support of the VR-33 speaker system. This has been the best selling speaker system we have ever offered, with such a high sales volume that we had to move into a larger building and hire more personnel to accommodate the demand. Thanks to you, this speaker has altered the high end speaker industry in many ways.

Our VR-33 Instruction Manual does not go into great detail about speaker placement, since I felt that most audiophiles would naturally want to try different placements in their rooms. However, as with any high performance speaker system, the VR-33 can be made to sound either mediocre or incredible, solely based on placement.

Based on feedback from end users, I am going to write a very detailed Manual, with a very strong emphasis on how the speaker interacts with the room and what you can do to optimize the sound reproduction. While I'm at it, I'll put in some details I've found that you can use to upgrade the sound of your entire system. I will publish the new VR-33 Owners Manual at our website so you VR-33 owners can download it for further experimentation with your system. The new Manual should be available by the end of March.

Happy Listening,
Albert

Is there a link to the manual yet?

pardales · « **Reply #9 on:** 28 Apr 2011, 12:26 am »

Love to get further insights about placement. Does anyone know if the Cardas speaker placement formulas can be applied to sqauare rooms? The page I found on the Cardas formulas call for them to be used in rectangular rooms -- my room is a perfect square -- a very large perfect square with a tall cathedral ceiling.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring

I think I am getting close and am considering experimenting with some toe-in. The speakers have definitely come a long way in the last 50 hours. I probably have about 350 hours on them right now.

pardales · « **Reply #10 on:** 8 May 2011, 12:18 am »

Break-in continues to bring improvements. I now have the 33's placed exactly to the Cardas formula spec's -- they are 16" from the front wall and 9'10" from the side walls. Getting a nice wall of sound with the mids and uppers filling in nicely. Probably about 400 onthem with the Dayens Ampino.

BfloDave · « **Reply #11 on:** 10 May 2011, 06:15 pm »

Good to hear that the Cardas formula was helpful. Your system and room is truly one of the most musical I have ever experienced. I would also like to commend you for your hospitality and excellent taste in music. Thanks to you, my vr-33's should be shipping this week.

barkerpj · « **Reply #12 on:** 16 May 2011, 01:37 pm »

Albert,

Just wondering how I can download the new VR-33 user manual mentioned in this thread?

Thx

Paul

pardales · « **Reply #13 on:** 16 May 2011, 01:51 pm »

Quote from: BfloDave on 10 May 2011, 06:15 pm

Good to hear that the Cardas formula was helpful. Your system and room is truly one of the most musical I have ever experienced. I would also like to commend you for your hospitality and excellent taste in music. Thanks to you, my vr-33's should be shipping this week.

Welcome to AC, BfloDave! I have you to thank for the tip on the Cardas formula. Congrats on the 33's. Can't wait to hear how you like them at your place.

DARTH AUDIO · « **Reply #14 on:** 16 May 2011, 07:38 pm »

Quote from: Albert Von Schweikert on 20 Mar 2011, 07:19 am

Hello VR-33 Owners,

Thanks for your purchase and support of the VR-33 speaker system. This has been the best selling speaker system we have ever offered, with such a high sales volume that we had to move into a larger building and hire more personnel to accommodate the demand. Thanks to you, this speaker has altered the high end speaker industry in many ways.

Our VR-33 Instruction Manual does not go into great detail about speaker placement, since I felt that most audiophiles would naturally want to try different placements in their rooms. However, as with any high performance speaker system, the VR-33 can be made to sound either mediocre or incredible, solely based on placement.

Based on feedback from end users, I am going to write a very detailed Manual, with a very strong emphasis on how the speaker interacts with the room and what you can do to optimize the sound reproduction. While I'm at it, I'll put in some details I've found that you can use to upgrade the sound of your entire system. I will publish the new VR-33 Owners Manual at our website so you VR-33 owners can download it for further experimentation with your system. The new Manual should be available by the end of March.

Happy Listening,
Albert

Albert, when will this be on the website? Thanks

Gary

barkerpj · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Jun 2011, 01:00 pm »

Just posting a reminder for the detailed placement info that was spoken about last month.

barkerpj · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 Aug 2011, 12:49 pm »

Any more info on the detailed placement info that was due in March?

BigSwede · « **Reply #17 on:** 12 Sep 2011, 02:49 pm »

I have settled on a placement 9" from the wall. How wonderful not to have to place them in the middle of the living room! (Really, I would not have even purchased them, had placement away from the walls been necessary or recommended)

barkerpj · « **Reply #18 on:** 8 Oct 2011, 02:26 pm »

Albert,

I am a bit disappointed that we haven't seen a new manual yet, for the VR-33, that we were expecting in March.

Any update on when it might be published on the website as stated in your post?

Thx

Paul

DaveGrif · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Sep 2012, 06:18 pm »

Hi folks. New VR33 owner and I’m adding this to an older thread since it is already flagged in the Sticky on speaker placement for the VR33’s. I bought a pair early in the summer in “Tan” (actually closest in color to “Mocha” on the Sherwin-Williams color chart).

First of all, I love them! I’ve been letting them break in over the summer and am just now getting around to dialing in the room placement. I bought a set of Spike “Gliders” from Herbie’s Audio Lab and that has made moving them an inch or two much easier. My objective – like everyone’s – is to get the best soundstage possible and maximize the design. It seems to me (opinions welcome) that the process should include both placement and optimizing the room. I’m wondering what successes/failures other owners have had.

I’m finding that almost everything written on room absorption and diffusion techniques is geared to more traditional speakers that sit well out into the room. Therefore the standard diagrams as to where to place any treatments probably don’t apply. For example, the 1st point of reflection for a traditional design would be on the side walls but with the 33’s trapezoidal design that may not be the case when set up parallel to the rear wall. I wondering if other owners have dealt with this uniqueness. In other words, using this description would they not be Tangential and/or Oblique?

From the Web: “Axial modes are the strongest and many times, the only ones that are considered. Tangential and oblique room modes have less impact per mode but are also more prevalent. A combination of tangential and oblique modes can cause just as many issues as axial modes can.”

I live in an older mid-Atlantic colonial and my listening room/office was originally a screened in porch that was remodeled into a 13’ x 9 x 9 den. On the small side but the 33’s fit right in. One side wall is the original exterior brick with the other wall and ceiling sheet rock. The speakers flank a window and the back wall is…ready for this?...a double wide sliding glass door with the listening chair backed up to the non-opening side. The challenge is rounded out by the fact the room doubles as my office with a desk and credenza on the side walls.

And before you ask, no, negotiating with The Queen for a different room is not possible. I cashed those chips buying the speakers.

Ok I assume that any kind of absorption trap along the back wall is out of the question as the 33’s were designed to bounce the bass off this wall. I also assume I should cover the windows and glass door with a wood louvered adjustable shade that might help with diffusion. But what about diffusers along the side walls or maybe between the speakers? Has anyone tried this? And as for bass most comments seem to center on using the distance from the rear wall to control the boom. But has anyone used a traditional bass in rear corners? Or up in the ceiling corners?

Bottom line: Great speakers in a smallish fairly bright room. Ideas most welcome!

Dave G