This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...

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I have been in this hobby for almost 30 yrs, and have NEVER heard a tube amp I would own ...  And in the never ending quest for new and exciting experiences, I am now considering a tube amplifier.  To this point, I have been turned off completely by  the syrupy, overly mellow, and colored sound of most tube amps. I can not stand an amp that rolls off frequencies, or had mushy, tubby, loose fisted bass.
      But now I have a friend who is doing his best to convince me that certain tube amps are now able to equal solid state amps when it comes to bass control and frequency extension .... amps which do not sound overly "tubey" ...
       So I decided to do some investigating on my own, and started reading recent reviews on highly regarded, newer technology tube amps .... and DAMN if there is simply NO agreeing on ANY of the ams in the reviews !!!   It is just rediculous !
       What am I looking for then ?   I am looking for a tube amp, stereo or monoblocks, even integrated, which has the positive benefits of my McCormack DNA-500, but with an even more "real" richand present midrange.  And an even larger soundstage ....
So with a budget of say $7000 .... is there ANY chance at all a concencous can be agreed upon for a few amps I should be considering ?

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #1 on: 6 Mar 2011, 05:51 pm »
I should have thought ahead a bit ....  The next question which I am going to be asked is :  " What amps have you been considering so far " ?    Eastern Electric, Rogue, Ayon so far .....

I thought I had found my new amps when I started reading about The Eastern Electric M156 monoblocks ... ALL of the professional reviewers seem to all say these amps do NOT sound overly tubey, but more like great solid state with a tube like richness in the midrange ......  Then I read several customer reviews ... and to a fault, they ALL say they consider these amps to be on the warm and euphonic side ..... Damn ... foiled again with confusion.

BTW, I listen loud, and I listen to EVERY kind of music on 88db sensitive speakers .... so I am looking for POWER !!!

lonewolfny42

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #2 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:01 pm »
What preamp do you now own ?

SteveFord

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #3 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:05 pm »
Manley or VTL should meet your requirements.
I believe that there's some Manley 250s on Audiogon right this moment.

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #4 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:08 pm »
I have been in this hobby for almost 30 yrs, and have NEVER heard a tube amp I would own ...  And in the never ending quest for new and exciting experiences, I am now considering a tube amplifier.  To this point, I have been turned off completely by  the syrupy, overly mellow, and colored sound of most tube amps. I can not stand an amp that rolls off frequencies, or had mushy, tubby, loose fisted bass.
      But now I have a friend who is doing his best to convince me that certain tube amps are now able to equal solid state amps when it comes to bass control and frequency extension .... amps which do not sound overly "tubey" ...
       So I decided to do some investigating on my own, and started reading recent reviews on highly regarded, newer technology tube amps .... and DAMN if there is simply NO agreeing on ANY of the ams in the reviews !!!   It is just rediculous !
       What am I looking for then ?   I am looking for a tube amp, stereo or monoblocks, even integrated, which has the positive benefits of my McCormack DNA-500, but with an even more "real" richand present midrange.  And an even larger soundstage ....
So with a budget of say $7000 .... is there ANY chance at all a concencous can be agreed upon for a few amps I should be considering ?

I have owned quite a few tube or hybrid amps that best the DNA-500 (which is a fine amp).

The best by far is the Atma-Sphere MA-1's.

Given that they can drive Wilson Sashas when using Speltz Zeros to help them sound their best (see this reviewers take - http://www.theaudiobeat.com/blog/atma_sphere_ma1_mk31_upgrade.htm), I am sure they can drive your speakers.

A used pair of MA-1's will work within your budget.

George

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #5 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:09 pm »
You will probably want a tube amp of at least 150-200 watts.  The rogue mono amps, the big VTL's and especially the bigger Audio Research certainly have great bandwidth and bass control.   I've yet to find a solid state amp that has the midrange that a good tube amp does.  Your choice of preamp is important.  If you like your McCormack a lot, look into a quality tube preamp.  It may just give you that little "something" you are looking for.
Hibuck...

Don_S

Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #6 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:10 pm »
Why do the tubes have to be in your amplifier?  If I was listening "loud" on 88dB (in)efficient speakers I would personally lean toward a tube preamplifier with a powerful SS stereo amp or monoblocks.

Freo-1

Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #7 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:13 pm »
Well, this is a tricky subject you have broached.   As someone who went from solid state to tubes and back again twice,  a couple of items to consider:

 1)  You will need higher power to achieve realistic SPL's with an 88db/w speaker.  The one brand that comes to mind that is high power and and not too tubey are Manley/VTL products.   They have a clean sound with good power levels, and provide some of the best of both.  The down side of all tubes is that "tube gear breaks occasionally" usually from a sub-par output tube.  They can often take out other components when this occurs.  Some companies fuse the output tubes to prevent additional damage.

2) A few solid state designs, such as Threshold/PASS Labs, provide a almost tube like clarity while maintaining the bottom end only solid state can deliver.   

In the end, I went with Threshold S amps, which are incredible once restored.   The occasional tube breakdowns eventually frustrated me to look into solid state solutions that had tube like characteristics.     

lonewolfny42

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #8 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:14 pm »
Why do the tubes have to be in your amplifier?  If I was listening "loud" on 88dB (in)efficient speakers I would personally lean toward a tube preamplifier with a powerful SS stereo amp or monoblocks.

Bingo.... :thumb: (That's why I asked about what preamp...)

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #9 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:34 pm »
Wow .... Some really, really great replies guys ... thanks.

Freo-1 .... you just helped a ton, by scaring the crap out of me  :lol:  Messing around with broken and finiky gear is NOT what I want at all !!!

To all asking about my pre-amp ... I do not use a proper preamp at all ...  I have ALL of my music on my laptop in WAV format, and thus my computer is basically my preamp.  The signal goes via USB to my Empirical Off Ramp Ultraclock ( modded ), which then feeds the signal to my Eastern Electric Minimax Tube DAC with Siemens Silverplate tube.

I have the option of adding a Goldpoint stepped attenuator to my DAC, making it a preamplifier .... but everyone keeps telling me this is not a good choice as a preamplifier .... and for the life of me, this makes NO DAMNED SENSE AT ALL ....

I have tried several different tubes in my DAC to add that magical tube sound to the mids ... but all of them screwed up the bass or treble extension.

I still believe the DAC could make a great preamp, even with remote if I so desired .... If anyone can offer a good reason why this is not so, I would love to hear it.

Thanks again for the help

Freo-1

Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #10 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:47 pm »
I would look into a Threshold FET-10 or a PASS LABS preamp.   The FET-10 or PASS LABS will significantly upgrade overall performance with your present setup.   Check out the DIY website, and research the PASS LABS area.  You will learn some interesting facts/opinions, etc.

I own both a tube preamp and FET-10 ,which has a upgraded external power supply.  While the tube preamp has some merits, overall, the FET-10 outperforms it.  FET's can sound as good or better than tubes.   Some well regarded designers own and use the FET-10 as a reference unit. 

As far as a DAC goes, I use a Cambridge Audio 840C CD/DAC unit, connected to the FET-10.  The incoming data stream is converted to 24/384, and sounds outstanding.

lonewolfny42

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #11 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:52 pm »
My $.02 cents....

Stick with your McCormack DNA-500....your speakers need this power.

[quote...]but with an even more "real" rich and present midrange.[/quote]

Add a good tube preamp....then you'll gain what your looking for....adding a stepped attenuator is not the same....and even with a tubed DAC...still not the same.

Good deal here... :wink:

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #12 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:54 pm »
I would look into a Threshold FET-10 or a PASS LABS preamp.   The FET-10 or PASS LABS will significantly upgrade overall performance with your present setup.   Check out the DIY website, and research the PASS LABS area.  You will learn some interesting facts/opinions, etc.

I own both a tube preamp and FET-10 ,which has a upgraded external power supply.  While the tube preamp has some merits, overall, the FET-10 outperforms it.  FET's can sound as good or better than tubes.   Some well regarded designers own and use the FET-10 as a reference unit. 

As far as a DAC goes, I use a Cambridge Audio 840C CD/DAC unit, connected to the FET-10.  The incoming data stream is converted to 24/384, and sounds outstanding.

I'm afriad this makes NO sense to me ....   Adding a preamp is unnecessary. It only adds more in the signal chain ... more wires ... more electronics ...   I have full control of the volume without using a preamp .... As far as that goes, if I wanted to, my EE DAC has a volume control on it .... Whay would I EVER want to add another ?

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #13 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:55 pm »
My $.02 cents....

Stick with your McCormack DNA-500....your speakers need this power.

Add a good tube preamp....then you'll gain what your looking for....adding a stepped attenuator is not the same....and even with a tubed DAC...still not the same.

What does a preamp bring that I do not already have with the volume control in my DAC ?

lonewolfny42

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #14 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:56 pm »
What does a preamp bring that I do not already have with the volume control in my DAC ?

The DAC will not give you more of the "real" rich and present midrange...how do I know...I've HEARD IT.... :thumb:

It's just not the same as adding a tubed pre...

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #15 on: 6 Mar 2011, 06:58 pm »
The DAC will not give you more of the "real" rich and present midrange...how do I know...I've HEARD IT.... :thumb:

Ok .... so you are saying the ONLY reason for adding a preamp is to add tubes which will give me a bit more warmth ?   I could do that with changing tubes in the DAC ...   I am not trying to be obstinate, but this still makes no sense to me.

lonewolfny42

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #16 on: 6 Mar 2011, 07:00 pm »
Ok .... so you are saying the ONLY reason for adding a preamp is to add tubes which will give me a bit more warmth ?   I could do that with changing tubes in the DAC ...   I am not trying to be obstinate, but this still makes no sense to me.

Then you need to hear it for yourself...got friends with a tubed preamp that you can borrow ?

Freo-1

Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #17 on: 6 Mar 2011, 07:02 pm »
It provides sufficient gain to drive the power amp.  A good preamp "conditions" the signal such that the power amp is fed a cleaner signal with better voltage/current supplied to the power amp. 

Tube preamps  can sound excellent, BUT, while more reliable than tubed power amps,   they are FAR too dependent on a "quiet" good sounding set of small signal tubes to perform at their best.  Modern small signal tubes are not very good, and chasing NOS tubes for the holy grail is a dog's breakfast at best.   A proper FET based circuit will provide better (more consistent) overall performance, and will be more reliable.

As always, YMMV.  If possible, try both a tube and FET based solid state peramp, and see which you prefer.  Keep in mind that tube preamps will vary FAR more than a FET based solid state device.

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Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #18 on: 6 Mar 2011, 07:06 pm »
It provides sufficient gain to drive the power amp.  A good preamp "conditions" the signal such that the power amp is fed a cleaner signal with better voltage/current supplied to the power amp. 

Tube preamps  can sound excellent, BUT, while more reliable than tubed power amps,   they are FAR too dependent on a "quiet" good sounding set of small signal tubes to perform at their best.  Modern small signal tubes are not very good, and chasing NOS tubes for the holy grail is a dog's breakfast at best.   A proper FET based circuit will provide better (more consistent) overall performance, and will be more reliable.

Well .... The EE DAC has a 3 volt output, which is more than any preamplifier I know of ... so there goes that theory  :thumb:

Freo-1

Re: This is your chance to convert a solid state fan ...
« Reply #19 on: 6 Mar 2011, 07:09 pm »
Well .... The EE DAC has a 3 volt output, which is more than any preamplifier I know of ... so there goes that theory  :thumb:
   :scratch:

Not exactly.  Many preamps can put out up to 20 volts.   The preamp also can provide a potentially improved signal to noise ratio, as well as a improved impedance match to the power amp.
 

From Stereophile:  Description: Dedicated line-level and phono preamplifier units. FET 10/H: Line-level control center. Inputs: Analog Disc (Phono to you, fella!), Auxiliary, FM/AM Tuner, CD Player, Video Audio, 2 Tape Monitors. Outputs: 2 Tape Record, Main to power amp. Controls: Source, Mode (Stereo, Reverse, Invert, Mono), Signal Distribution (Monitor Tape 1 or 2, Copy 1 to 2, Copy 2 to 1), Volume, Balance. Voltage gain: 20dB max. Frequency response: 1.5Hz–150kHz +0, –3dB. Max output: 20V. THD: 0.01% at 1V out. Output impedance: 100 ohms. FET 10/P: Phono preamplifier/RIAA equalizer. Gain: 40 or 60dB at 1kHz. RIAA accuracy: 0.025%. Frequency response: 1.5Hz–150kHz +0, –3dB. Max output: 20V. THD: 0.01% at 1V out. Output impedance 420 ohms. No controls.