[jdbrian]

Making people that can't afford it to begin with to have to pay more for energy doesn't solve anything. Without real solutions to go to it does nothing but cost people more money. The way to entice is with incentive. Solutions have to be in place and options with an attractive price.

  I agree that incentives are a good way to influence a portion of the public. I took advantage of incentives in 2008 to install a solar hot water system on my house. The problem with incentives is that they don't reach most people. As far as electric cars go, the prices are so high that even with incentives they are out of reach for most people.
  This may change, but I don't think it will be any time soon, as we need a modernization of the electric grid to deal with the power demands of a wide spread switch to electric vehicles.
  I believe that global warming, oil prices and the shift away from fossil fuels is going to be a major pre occupation for all of us in the next 20yrs.
  I don't want this to be taken as a political statement but Al Gore's book "Our Choice" is a good read for anyone looking for a possible solution to this stuff.  I am Canadian and don't have a horse or Donkey or Elephant in your political races.
 
Brian
   
   
   

[HT cOz]

Synthetic diesel is easy to make.  You take any fuel wood / cow dung / natural gas coal / etc and heat it in an oxygen free environment.  This makes Syngas which can be converted into liquid fuels.  We have know how to do this since WWII.  The only projects that it makes sense is in areas of stranded natural gas.  However, with the developing LNG market that may be in question.  The reason is EROI it doesn't make sense to produce fuel using these methods when you still have the old cheap stuff available




As for the big oil companies profiteering,,, give me a break.  People talk about these companies without looking at the size of their balance sheets.  They average 6-7% over time and they have to be big to survive the price volitility.   How comfortable would you be to invest billions of dollars for the next bbl at a $90 cost when prices fell to $30 2 years ago.  It takes big BALLS.

This brings me back to our future

[Danny Richie]

I believe that global warming, oil prices and the shift away from fossil fuels is going to be a major pre occupation for all of us in the next 20yrs.

I believe that we will one day look back at the whole global warming nonsense as a bigger joke than the Y2K bug. So far I have seen no credible evidence of such a thing beyond it being a political tool. In fact last year and this year has been the hardest winters and the mildest summers that I can remember for many years.

  I don't want this to be taken as a political statement but Al Gore's book "Our Choice" is a good read for anyone looking for a possible solution to this stuff.

I believe that we have to be responsible for what the good Lord has given us, but don't put much faith in anything said by Al Gore.

This thread is already tip towing on political material. Let's be careful with all of that and get back to cool stuff like electric cars. 

And Russell, that VW looks killer.

[Danny Richie]

This thing is little more than a stylish golf cart, but might be just right for cruising around town.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Kandi-Coco-Electric-Car-Streel-Legal-/280621949788?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item41565f235c

[mojave]

I was in China for nearly a month in December. While there I visited the Forbidden City in Beijing. The Forbidden City is the world's largest castle complex and covers 180 acres. The entire area is covered in stone block for either the buildings or the courtyards or the walls. We were told that the temperature in the Forbidden City averaged 3-4 deg Celcius (about 6 deg F) warmer than the surrounding area until Bejing expanded around it. This makes me wonder how much temp change recorded globally is due to urbanization in areas where the temps are actually recorded.

I didn't see any electric cars in China, but there were millions and millions of electric mopeds and trikes. I almost got hit several times because you can't hear them coming and they all drive on the sidewalk.

[andy71]

So far I have seen no credible evidence of such a thing beyond it being a political tool. In fact last year and this year has been the hardest winters and the mildest summers that I can remember for many years.
 

Actually your point tends to support global warming.  "Global warming" refers to the average temperature for the globe not necessarily a warmer temperature at any particular location.  The biggest prediction of global warming is climate change - that is that historical weather patterns will shift - which is what you just described - unusually cold winters for your location and unusually mild summers.

[Danny Richie]

Actually your point tends to support global warming.  "Global warming" refers to the average temperature for the globe not necessarily a warmer temperature at any particular location.  The biggest prediction of global warming is climate change - that is that historical weather patterns will shift - which is what you just described - unusually cold winters for your location and unusually mild summers.

Time will tell all, but a few degrees cooler across the board won't bother me at all.

[SoCalWJS]

Slightly OT but, ....

I was listening to a guy on the radio who said the most realistic option for future energy is Alcohol. He said that right now, it's very easy to just go after the easy stuff (corn into Ethanol), but with improving technology, we will be able to use the wild grass that grows in the Plains. It doesn't take too much to convert existing combustion engines from gasoline to alcohol. Could be done very cheaply (certainly cheaper than $4/gallon - he said probably in the $2.50/gal range) It made sense when he explained it.

Anybody else heard this approach?

[persisting1]

I've decided to stay out of this thread.  Have fun guys 

[Danny Richie]

Slightly OT but, ....

I was listening to a guy on the radio who said the most realistic option for future energy is Alcohol. He said that right now, it's very easy to just go after the easy stuff (corn into Ethanol), but with improving technology, we will be able to use the wild grass that grows in the Plains. It doesn't take too much to convert existing combustion engines from gasoline to alcohol. Could be done very cheaply (certainly cheaper than $4/gallon - he said probably in the $2.50/gal range) It made sense when he explained it.

Anybody else heard this approach?

I can't remember the exact values but I think the air fuel mixture running gasoline is about 13.4 to 14 to one. For alcohol it is about half of that. Us old drag racers know that you can make more power with alcohol but you use twice as much of it.

So even if you could buy the alcohol for $2.50 a gallon, you'll need twice as much of it to go the same distance as running gasoline.

[HT cOz]

Slightly OT but, ....

I was listening to a guy on the radio who said the most realistic option for future energy is Alcohol. He said that right now, it's very easy to just go after the easy stuff (corn into Ethanol), but with improving technology, we will be able to use the wild grass that grows in the Plains. It doesn't take too much to convert existing combustion engines from gasoline to alcohol. Could be done very cheaply (certainly cheaper than $4/gallon - he said probably in the $2.50/gal range) It made sense when he explained it.

Anybody else heard this approach?

Here is the problem with ethanol

"Biofuels have to contend with oil, which Mother Nature already processed over millions of years with heat and pressure to produce an energy-dense, transportable mixture. With biofuels humans must grow and transport the biomass (which is far less energy dense than oil), and then add heat and pressure to convert the biomass into fuels. Thus, it shouldn’t be a surprise that biofuels tend to be more expensive than oil."

http://www.consumerenergyreport.com/2010/08/21/whats-really-holding-cellulosic-biofuels-back/

[HT cOz]

I think most people are completely lost in the scale of world energy consumption.  The replacement of every unit of energy we consume is more difficult to obtain.  It just gets worse until you get some new technology to take advantage of a denser energy source. 

Look at this chart.  Now think about everything that goes into the collection of these resources.  It is massive.  Replacing this system is not going to be easy.





Now that car like the VW gives hope because we can go so much further on what is still available.  That should give s enough time to get to the next big thing.  Which probably is not less dense green energy ... Atlest is history is any guide 

[HAL]

Ok, where do I get a Mr. Fusion to charge my electric car? 

Hopefully that will happen to help with the entire energy issue.   It has been a long time coming and still looks far off unfortunatly. 

[SoCalWJS]

Forgive my ignorance on the matter, but...

What makes ethanol different from alcohol?

He was speaking of alcohol. He was talking about the history of bootlegging and the stills out in the woods to show how cheap and easily it could be produced. I admit I missed much of the program, but it sounded easy and obvious. I heard follow up and believe one of the true Hollywood "left wingers" (Ed Begley?) had converted his Prius so that it ran on grain alcohol in about 10 minutes with fairly standard tools.

[HT cOz]

Ethanol is alcohol.

[ooheadsoo]

Sounds like a form of socialism to me. You can't punish people into going Green and at the same time start taking money out of the economy.

I think this policy was suggested by Mankiw, one of Pres. Reagan's economic advisers. 

[Cheeseboy]

Where is the flux capacitor when you need it?

I think we are hearing all kinds of solutions and if we allow each to succeed we might see less pollution and lower cost transportation. 

We all might be driving a hybrid.  It runs on gas, natural gas, ethanol and batteries.  Perhaps if you spend too much time at the pub you can vacate in the tank.  I think thats alcohol?

By the way studies show that electric cars in thier current state cost about 3 cents a mile to operate. 

[Cheeseboy]

This thing is little more than a stylish golf cart, but might be just right for cruising around town.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Kandi-Coco-Electric-Car-Streel-Legal-/280621949788?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item41565f235c

Those Coco's are cute as all hell.  There is a dealer for those in here in town.  I always wanted to drive one.  The electric drive experience is very different.  We also have a miniture electric formula 1 car track.  Those haul ass.  The torque is awesome. 

[Plund]

I like the idea of an electric car but I won't be driving one until they become competitively priced.  Also, until Mr fusion is available, wouldn't it be great to add more nuclear power to the grid?!  It's much more efficient than Wind/solar (especially when the wind isn't blowing and the sun isn't shining).  If green is your thing, it is difficult to be more green than nuclear.  Vitrification of nuclear waste makes it a low risk (turning waste into a solid glass form). 

Until Five years ago I thought Ethanol was a great idea...creating our own fuel would create jobs for farmers and lessen our dependency on foreign oil.  Then, I  learned of a study by professors at Cornell and UC-Berkeley that changed my thinking. Of the bio-fuel feedstock they studied, corn was among the most efficient but even corn required 29% more fossil fuel energy input to create than the corn ethanol can output.  Today I think Ethanol is an idiotic idea.

Until Mr Fusion and my Nuke plants are built I think we should RESPONSIBLY use all the resources we are blessed with...wind, solar, hydro, coal, oil, nat gas, uranium,etc.   Just my opinion.  Ok, I'll get off my soap-box now.

[persisting1]

Charts, graphs, percentages, statistics and numbers should all have links to sources.  If not, then they really don't mean much.  Please back claims with support.