Paradigm Monitor 9's with Sonicaps and Mills Resistors

Faststang · « **on:** 1 Feb 2011, 01:02 am »

Hey everyone. I've been kicking around here for awhile and never posted but thought I would share some results for anyone that is interested. Just a FYI, I am an audiophile that has listened to MANY speakers over the years.

Actually as an engineer I was curious as to this whole capacitor and resistor upgrade so I decided to make a purchase of a few components. I replaced a 22uF and 10uF capactior that was placed in parallel with a single 33uF Sonicap and 2, 10uF caps on the tweeter crossover with 2 sonicaps of the same value. All resistors were replaced with the MILLS, also same values and verified with my fluke meter.

In any case, onto the results. One speaker is stock, the other with the upgrade. Several things changed, some for the better and some for the worse.
The "upgraded" speaker was definately less congested, more defined and detailed and had more presence. Details were less transparent but there is one glaring issue I would like to get feedback on. The upgraded unit is overly bright, earbleeding bright to the point where listening at any type of elevated level is very fatiguing. It is now a speaker that you do not want to play classical with because of the extra brightness. For those with these caps, will this "brightness" decay over time. It may be a dealbreaker.

The OEM Paradigm Monitor 9 is already semi bright at loud levels and the Sonicap seems to enhance this. I have also heard of people upgrading the Klipsh with the Sonicap with results that it sounded worse. This may be a premature statement but it seems that these caps tend to brighten already bright tweeters such as the lower end Monitor speakers and the Klipsh horn tweeters.

I may try tomorrow to downgrade one of the 2 series tweeter caps to the OEM to see if this enhanced brightness goes away or place a 1 ohm mills in series with the cap where the 0.5ohm is now to try and "tone down" the tweeter and brightness issue.

Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks

Faststang · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Feb 2011, 03:08 am »

No noticeable difference with a single cap downgraded to the OE Paradigm Electrolytic 10uF cap. It would seem only one sonicap is needed for the sonic changes to take place. I really have a dillema here. The sonicaps have much more defined detail and presence but seem colored, bright and less neutral compaired to the Paradigm caps.

django11 · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Feb 2011, 04:36 pm »

When I upgraded my x-ls encore with the Sonic caps I also found that they got a bit bright. I think you can add a bypass cap that will take it down a bit. Maybe post on the GR Research circle as he carries the Sonic caps.

Pez · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Feb 2011, 04:54 pm »

Did you allow the caps to break in for a period of time, or did you upgrade and play? If you didn't allow them to break in I'm not surprised it's unlistenably bright. Give them 100+ hours and try again.

It may fix this issue, it may not, but right now it's premature to be concluding anything.

jtwrace · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 Feb 2011, 05:20 pm »

Faststang

Welcome to A.C.!

You might enjoy reading http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Nick77 · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 Feb 2011, 05:55 pm »

Quote

The Gen I is basically a fairly balanced capacitor. However, some find our "balanced" slightly thin and bright compared to the more lush "colored" capacitors which would include the Gen II. While the Gen II has a nice Midrange bloom, Gen I has a slight advantage on the freq extremes (top and bottom). In many applications, larger values of Gen I bypassed with smaller values of Gen II yield a very favorable result.

You can try the small value Gen11 as bypass to warm things up, but since Sonicaps are much more revealing you might need to up the resistor a little more.

Faststang · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Feb 2011, 10:30 pm »

Awesome! That is what I am looking for and thanks for the feedback and welcome.

Yes the caps are plug and play! I may need to break them in a bit before I do any more listening but am very impressed with the clarity and overall results. So much more clean, but so bright. I really hope they tone down a bit so I will leave the one OE crossover unit as is for the time being and break in the new crossover unit to see if I notice a difference over time.

For the bypass I have a couple MKP1837 bypass as recommended by humblehomemadehighfi.com (thanks for the link) on the way. I'm hoping the combination of break in and bypass helps. I really like how much more clean they sound over the OE caps.

What I found interesting is that the first cap right after the positive terminal is in series with a resistor and another capacitor of the same value before hitting the tweeter. When I replaced the first Sonicap with the paradigm electrolitic there was almost no sonic difference. It really is interesting how the second cap in series made such a major difference in the highs when another older cap is previously in series with it. Is this common accepted "theory" when replacing caps? I'm trying to wrap my head around it engineering wise and it makes no sence to me as to why the sound is different when the first electrolytic is in place.

Thanks again for the suggestions. I will see how it goes with the existing setup after some play time.

Faststang · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 12:47 am »

Thought you guys might enjoy seeing how I packed the sonicaps onto the paradigm board. Barely got them in there.

If you guys recommend replacing the first electrolytic cap as well let me know but I believe replacing the one before the tweet changed a majority of the sound.

django11 · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 03:47 am »

I really like where they put the crossover on that speaker. So easy to get to! Getting to the crossover on my diy N3 is a fearsome pita...

Pez · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 05:13 am »

Maybe also consider damping the hell out of the entire board especially the plastic casing. I'm not sure that electrolytic cap is doing you any good either, I doubt you need an electrolytic, but I could be wrong.

Faststang · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 06:47 am »

White noise playing 24 7 right now, albeit at lower volume levels. I figure after a week we will see the end results. It seems as is, I enjoy the overall balance of the stock setup for the highs best and the bass driver definately sounds better with the sonicap.

"Journey" was my test bench last night and man the sonicaps were killn me bright to the point where I couldn't listen anymore. Over a wide range of material the electrolytic sounds best right now but do agree that the sonicaps are more detailed, quick and less muddy then the electrolytics but to bright is the dealbreaker. I bet these would sound fantastic in my Mirage FRX700's since they are softer and warmer then the paradigms to start with.

Nick77 · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Feb 2011, 10:53 am »

Try knocking down the increased treble energy with a larger resistor.

face · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Feb 2011, 12:28 am »

High Q circuits will expose the differences between electrolytic and film caps more than a low Q circuit, maybe the second series cap is what has the more effect on the circuit's Q? Also, film caps have lower ESR than electrolytic, maybe swapping out the tweeter resistor for one of a slightly higher value may help.

You could also check out another line of caps. I find Claritycap ESA's and Obbligato on the warm side. Be sure to check their dimensions first as they may be even larger than the Sonic Caps.

Pez · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Feb 2011, 03:30 am »

I second the Obligatos. A friend of mine has used them vs the sonicaps and preferred them.

Steve · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Feb 2011, 04:03 am »

Quote from: jtwrace on 1 Feb 2011, 05:20 pm

Faststang

Welcome to A.C.!

You might enjoy reading http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

Hi JT,

I am not sure the article does more harm than good for several reasons.

1) I only see that the caps are within tolerance, not necessarily close in value to each other. Hopefully they are close.

2) One brand cap may sound better than another depending upon the driver/design etc. With a different driver, the brand cap may need to be changed for optimum performance.

3) No in depth explanation as to how the listening was performed, no variables are covered.

I would personally give very little consideration to this capacitor test without in depth coverage.

--------

As you are breaking in the caps, see how they sound in a week or so.

Cheers.

Faststang · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Feb 2011, 04:39 am »

Quote from: Steve on 3 Feb 2011, 04:03 am

Hi JT,

I am not sure the article does more harm than good for several reasons.

1) I only see that the caps are within tolerance, not necessarily close in value to each other. Hopefully they are close.

2) One brand cap may sound better than another depending upon the driver/design etc. With a different driver, the brand cap may need to be changed for optimum performance.

3) No in depth explanation as to how the listening was performed, no variables are covered.

I would personally give very little consideration to this capacitor test without in depth coverage.

--------

As you are breaking in the caps, see how they sound in a week or so.

Cheers.

So far no dice, same sound. I got the bypass caps in and threw them on today but the caps are still painfully bright. Preliminary results still tell me that while listening at moderate levels the detail is better and more defined but they are still too bright and seems colored when turned up vs the OE design.

I'm a believer they work and probably work well on different drivers but so far they do not seem well matched to the Paradigms tweeter section. All in all I think your on the ball with the suggestion that drivers are a huge variable when it comes to capacitor choice. Simply making statements on which capacitors are best without mention of the drivers OE characteristics probably won't tell the tale.

I will try one more test with a slightly larger resistor then it's quits if the break in doesn't work.
BTW Thanks for the heads up on the Obbligatos guys! I think I'm going to send back these 2 unused sonicaps and try out the obbligatos.

I will still keep you guys posted on how the sonicaps sound after a week of break in and then the obbligatos.

Faststang · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Feb 2011, 10:45 pm »

Resistors = no dice. Now the mid bass and bass is too loud.

I'm 90% these are being pulled back out unless by the grace of God they "break in". To be honest I'm starting to think it's all placebo effect. Side by side after a couple days of break in all the same +'s and -'s, nothing has changed. We will see on Tuesday though.

BTW I have 2 10uF Sonicaps that are un-used that I do not need. If anyone wants them for $16 each let me know. Trying to return them is like pulling teeth from Sonicraft and I would hate to do a chargeback. If the break in doesn't work I will have 4 for sale. Used ones $14 each.

Thanks!

face · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Feb 2011, 01:19 am »

What value resistor did you replace and what did you experiment with? You probably only need .5-1.5ohms of added resistance, the most.

Faststang · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Feb 2011, 03:56 am »

Tried the 1 ohm and it has less presence and sounds more "into the speaker".

So far the best results have been to use the bypass. It did warm it up a bit but that nagging "dog whistle" or "sharp S" sounds are still there that hurts the ears in some presentations.

There is no doubt in my mind that when listening to subtle classical music the sonicaps sound is more defined, less noisy and much more crisp but when the orchestra hits those loud high pitches my ears are a ringing, reminds me of horn tweeters. When I change over to the OEM Paradigm there is no doubt that it is more neutral and does better over a wider range of material even though the sonicaps shine at low volume or when music doesn't present high, loud or sharp notes.... As of right now it's not a compromise I think I can handle.

BTW also tried the bypass on the OE speakers. Sounds like complete crap I think the high ESR of the electrolytics mask much of the high dog whistle sounds.

Pez · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Feb 2011, 04:32 am »

Just curious, do these speakers have silk dome tweeter or some kind of metallic tweeter?