[lonewolfny42]

To me, palpable means a physical sensation of the music. I just thought a larger midrange/low end driver would help deliver this better.

It will....

It's a good sized room....so....another larger speaker...or add a sub to enforce the bass with your present speakers.

[wilsynet]

Frequency Response: 60 - 28,000 Hz

I don't know much about specs, but doesn't that say it all right there?  You can fix the room all you want, but 60hz won't likely do the trick no matter what you do.

The Zu Druid goes down to 35hz, but this was ultimately dissatisfying for me despite the tonally dense sound of the Zu widebander.  The Zu Soul Superfly goes as low as 30hz, and this does the trick for me.  It won't do the trick for everyone, but I'm good.

[lonewolfny42]

Since this thread may turn into a "speaker hunt"....

I'm now moving this thread to the Enclosures circle....

[Bemopti123]

My room is roughly 18 by 20 feet with a rug and a sofa, which is where I usually sit when listening. Hard wood floors. My speakers are about two to three feet away from the rear walls, although one is really backed by a drape-covered window.

Along with the Minuets I have an Arcam CD-72 CD player, Arte Forma I-150 integrated amp, and a Van Alstine OmegaStar DAC. No special cables, etc. except for a power cable for the amp made by Patrick Cullen and an inexpensive Monster digital coax interconnect between the CDP and DAC.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a bass fanatic. To me, palpable means a physical sensation of the music. I just thought a larger midrange/low end driver would help deliver this better.

That is a large space that needs to be filled in with speakers with larger drivers.  The Minuet 3.5" midwoofers might be sufficient for smaller spaces but in that situation, you are not able to pressurize the sound enough.  I think you might try a subwoofer but I do not think it will really make much more than just a bare difference. 

Anything about 6" in the woofer section would help immensely.  I find that speakers that are able to articulate the low midrange better have increased "presence" and excitement (between 100HZ and above) will feed your need for more articulation.

Also look for something that has decent power handling, because I can see that while the Minuets have been rated up to 300watts, it might be flattening out dynamically, just handling power but giving you nothing back in terms of increased sound pressure. 

If I was in your shoes, something like those designs by Selah with a extremely heavy duty midwoofer paired with a RAAL ribbon might give you what you need.  Even this Aurasound woofer monitors would also give you what you might be missing. 

[davidrs]

Since this thread may turn into a "speaker hunt"....

Prescient! Very Wolf like   


Mass Wine Guy, where are you sitting in relation to your current speakers?

 Position the speakers in their ideal location based on the room and your needs. Then move yourself around with a chair that keeps your listening height the same as where you will end up primarily sitting. If the speakers are to be moved (ie. you listening chair/couch needs to stay in a fixed location) then use the couch as the anchor position and move the speakers around.

Nearfield listening can be very satisfying, even in a larger room.

Here is a good read on what a small monitor (in this case a Micropure Kotaro) can do for you:

Review is by Srajan Ebaen.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/micropure/kotaro.html

Deals with some of the very issues being discussed on this thread, including room size issues and the need for bass augmentation via a sub.

If you are set on replacing the speakers, then your budget, ideal speaker & listener positions, and other system info will allow for members to assist you better. Best to post a complete list here and in the systems page.

It is easy to point to the speaker first. As I mentioned earlier, it is generally a complete system issue. If you have some audiophile friends close-by, whose systems are well dialed in, play your speakers in their systems or at a dealers (if you are purchasing other gear from the dealer). I bet you will be amazed what your speakers can do.

Based on your earlier post, you need much better cabling. Does not need to be expensive and there is tremendous support if you go the diy route.

[timind]

I don't see how the Minuets can satisfy in a room the size of yours unless as mentioned above you are using them for nearfield listening only.
There are so many options for you but assuming you are located in MA, here's something worth looking at. http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1299292348&/Soliloquy-5.3-Cherry-speakers
Don't know the seller, but looks like a good price for someone who can pick them up. I have a pair of Soliloquy 5.0 monitors and love them.

[Quiet Earth]

My room is roughly 18 by 20 feet ........ My speakers are about two to three feet away from the rear walls

I don't think there's anything wrong with your system. It's doing exactly what it should be doing, considering everything that you have described. There's really only so much a small speaker (or even a big speaker) can do when you place it several feet into the room.

FWIW, my room is about the same size as yours, and every time I place a speaker more than two feet away from any room boundary (i.e., a wall) I'm left with the same basic feeling that you described. No gusto. No meat on the bone. "No physical sensation of the music."  Yes, imaging is larger than life and some of it seems loud enough,,,, but where's the beef???

The room gain factor is a normal part of life for the average music lover. You can try to avoid room boundaries by moving away from them, then throw more watts, speakers, and room treatments into the mix. Or, you can work with room boundaries and use them to enhance a system that seems very rudimentary and simple by comparison. It doesn't really matter which path you choose, as long as you enjoy the fun.

[Mass. Wine Guy]

Thank you very, very much everyone for your insightful and extremely helpful comments. I'm so glad that this forum exists.

My budget is extremely challenged and low. If I got a new pair of speakers, I'd need to sell my current speakers a.s.a.p. to cover the cost. Same with my amp, though I got a great deal on the Arte Forma and am not too concerned with recovering my investment.

I'm not at all a do it yourself person, but I was strongly considering buying one of Tom's newer ClassD Audio models and installing the power supply myself, then buying a chassis for it.

[Tyson]

I'd recommend getting a sub or building one. 

[Quiet Earth]

My budget is extremely challenged and low.

Moving your speakers back is free. Plus you gain a little experience and understanding. Try it first 

..... Ok, enough is enough from me already : 

[Mass. Wine Guy]

Update on room measurements: I was wrong. It's about 16.5 by 16.5 feet, plus part of the far side facing the speakers is an open walk through that extends another 10 feet.

I think the speakers sound better two feet from the rear and I sit on my couch about 10 feet in front of them.

[davidrs]

You may have posted this earlier, but would be good to have all the info in one post.

How far are the speakers from the front wall (the wall behind the speakers)?

How far are the speakers from the side walls?

How far apart are the speakers from each other?

Distance of the sides of the triangle to you?

And I believe you are saying you are 10 feet from the speakers on the central perpendicular, correct?

Where is the tweeter, in height to your ears at your listening position (above, below, equal, in inches)?

[wilsynet]

In my experience, having the speakers less than 3 feet from the front wall collapses sound stage depth.  Perhaps that just means I need to better treat the room, but I'm willing to only go so far given the multi-use nature of my room.

By all means I would experiment with different placement, but at the end of the day, it's hard to have it all.  You need to choose your particular mix of compromises, but there are very real and fundamental limitations that are part and parcel with small speakers.

After all this time, there's still no such thing as a free lunch.

[nodiak]

Could consider an ad here on AC Trading Post:

"Powered sub wanted to try or buy in Mass."

Never know what might turn up.
Imo, with a tight budget a sub seems best starting point, so you don't start dismantling a working system.

[JLM]

Your speakers are quite small for the room.  Some small speakers manage to "sound larger" or feel like they "fill the room with sound" but most don't.  Having ample power is often a big help.  I heard the Fritz Carbon 7's ($1700/pair standmounts) that pulled this off very well with a big, beefy amp at the 2010 AKFest.

I'd try to hang in there with what you've got, experiment with speaker/listening positionings, and save up for a sub.  As mentioned above a sub will relieve your tiny midwoofers of the "heavy lifting" (bass demands) which should enhance dynamics, open up the midrange, provide lots of bottom end bass, and fill the room with sound. 

When shopping for a sub, look for music (faster, more articulate) not home theater (super deep) performance, and size it for your room/taste.

Your Arte Forma must still be very new, is it broken in yet?  (Could be an issue.)  Let us know how it sounds too.

[Letitroll98]

Your speakers are very nice and you don't need new ones, nor could you get significantly better ones on your budget.  However, they don't extend down to 60Hz no matter what the specs say.  If you read Stereophile's review and go the the measurements section, you will see the severe drop off below 100Hz, which is exactly what I would expect from a 3 1/2" driver.  Keep the speakers, buy a subwoofer, Parts Express has several ok units for $100.

That being said, you can re-enforce the bass without using wall placement that collapses the imaging (which is why you have mini-monitors to begin with, excellent imaging).  Calculate the bass nodes of the room by dividing the length and width by even dimensions, 1/8 from the wall, 1/6 from the wall, 1/4 from the wall, 1/2 from the wall (you can also stick 2.65 between 1/4 and 1/2).  Draw out the lines on some graph paper, the intersections are your bass nodes, place the speakers at these intersections, place your listening chair at these intersections (you can also include height for three dimensional placement).  These are approximations of your real bass nodes, but will be close enough to get you in the ball park.  Different frequencies will be re-enforced at different nodes, but with your room dimensions, the 1/2, 1/4, and 1/6 dimensions will all be below the 100Hz region you need to boost, and there will be only a couple of location candidates that fit with imaging requirements.   

[Mass. Wine Guy]

I don't really want to get a subwoofer because I don't want to add to an already crowded cable and connection jungle. I'm leaning strongly toward other monitors with larger drivers (6 inches or so). PSB Image B6 and some of Eric's Tekton products are appealing. But if I see a good sub for a reasonable price, I may buy it anyway.

[eclein]

MWG- If you get a sub, you can integrate them so that you won't know they are there....the low end will just appear, subs I don't think are directional, mine fires down, you wouldn't know its on until I turn it off....subs are a good thing IMHO

[wywires]

I don't really want to get a subwoofer because I don't want to add to an already crowded cable and connection jungle. I'm leaning strongly toward other monitors with larger drivers (6 inches or so). PSB Image B6 and some of Eric's Tekton products are appealing. But if I see a good sub for a reasonable price, I may buy it anyway.

I'm not a big fan of subs either. If you want to upgrade the speakers, you should consider Fritzspeakers. I had a pair of a new Fritz prototypes in my system for a day. These have the new Usher tweeter and a 6" Scanspeak mid-woofer. I thought they sounded very good with surprising bass quality for a small speaker along with excellent detail and first rate imaging. The pair that I had were new new with no hours on them so they will improve over what I heard. I believe the target price will be around $900. The Fritz Carbon 7 has been very favorably reviewed and is an amazing speaker for twice the price but it's around $2k. The new prototype is very similar but not quite as extended in the bass or as smooth in the highs.

Alex

[Mass. Wine Guy]

I believe the target price will be around $900.

Earth to MWG: Dream on.

If I can get around $400 for my Minuets, then I can get speakers in the $600 or so and under region. I'd love to get the speakers you mention, or Quad 12L passives, but I can't afford it.

Even though it says it's rated for "small rooms," might this fit my needs?:

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-1.html