I am back with another project. (Listening room)

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Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #20 on: 9 Jan 2011, 07:14 am »
I think you need to discuss this project with some professionals.  GIK can get you started with some ideas....  This topic is probably best suited for the Acoustic Circle.  http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=73.0
Hi jtw.
I am not looking for professional advice, I only want the Audio Circle members to share with me their experiences with their listening room.
I have already a good idea how I will do the acoustic treatment of my listening room, but want to see if any Audio Circle members agree with me or can come up if different views on how to do it.
That's what I like about Audio Circle, you can exchange ideas.
Please don't spoil my fun with the Audio Circle members...
Thanks for the link, but I will wait for opinions from other Audio Circle members and if  no members share with me their experience, well, as usual, I will do it my way and in a few days I will delete this topic.
Guy 13 

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #21 on: 9 Jan 2011, 07:23 am »
Absolutely agree.  See the threads by Arthurs and Ted_b on using the services of a pro too.  Reasonable consultation cost compared to construction costs and they can do it all remotely. 

Bpape (GIK) and Ethan Winer have, of course, always been invaluable sources of free advice, even if you choose not to use their products (I use both).  They have tons of real world experience to bring that may end of saving you a lot of money too.
Hi TomS and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for your advice, but I will not consult them, I will only read what I can find on their site and on the Internet and do it MY way. (As usual)
That way, I will have fun, frustrations, joy, problems and satisfaction of having done something all by myself...
If someone else what to share with me their room acoustic treatment exoperiece, please do it now before I delete the whole topic.
Some of you guys try top help, I realize that, but I thought after some many post, you would know me better... I want to share, I like Audio Circle, IO like Danny's site and I love to experiments and share. Did I ever complain about my problems, I think not, I only share my problems with the Audio Circle members.
Guy 13.
No I am not upset,
no I am not angry,
I am only tired to reapeat again and again, that I want to share and I want Audio Circle members to share with me their experiences.
. . . . . . . . . 

jtwrace

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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #22 on: 9 Jan 2011, 11:58 am »
Hi jtw.
I am not looking for professional advice, I only want the Audio Circle members to share with me their experiences with their listening room.
I have already a good idea how I will do the acoustic treatment of my listening room, but want to see if any Audio Circle members agree with me or can come up if different views on how to do it.
That's what I like about Audio Circle, you can exchange ideas.
Please don't spoil my fun with the Audio Circle members...
Thanks for the link, but I will wait for opinions from other Audio Circle members and if  no members share with me their experience, well, as usual, I will do it my way and in a few days I will delete this topic.
Guy 13

OK.  I will not give you proper advice again.   :thumb:

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #23 on: 9 Jan 2011, 12:47 pm »
OK.  I will not give you proper advice again.   :thumb:
Hi jtw and all Audio Circle members.
I know my English is not that good, but I think you did not understood what I wrote, I am looking for opinions, experience in your own or other Audio Circle members listening rooms.
Exchange of ideas, that's what I want, I don't want to deal with professionals, I want to exchange ideas with Audio Circle members.
Today here in Vietnam it's Sunday and usually on Sunday I work, well today I did a different type of work, I browse for hours on the Internet to get as much as I can information on listening room treatment and I did find lots of good and simple to understand information.
Why do you get so jumppy?
I thought after all this time posting on Audio Circle, you knew me better.
Sorry if I upset you, but I am a very direct person, but in no way I want to be offending.
As I wrote in a previous post, I will give a few days to the Audio Circle memebers to post their ideas and after that, I will delete everything and keep my question to myself.
Too bad, because according to the numbers of views of my posts, I see that many Audio Circle members are interested or at least curious about what is in my posts.
Have a nice Sunday.
Guy 13

SoCalWJS

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #24 on: 9 Jan 2011, 04:43 pm »
Keep on posting Guy! You'll get some input and suggestions here. I understand the fun and challenge of learning something yourself, and geting input from others to work around potential issues.

I have no direct experience, but have planned an add on room which will be a dedicated HT/Listening room. It's only in the basic concept stages with dimensions in mind along with how I want the final project to look - modeled after a room at a high end store in San Diego. Spend a bit of time learning about the golden ratio and speaker positioning before you come up with final dimensions.

One story I read while learning about this stuff that I will put here - the design called for non parallel walls in order to reduce some acoustical issues. The contractor figured it was a misprint and "corrected" the "problem". In other words, if you do anything unusual, go over the plans carefully with whoever is doing the work, or make sure you closely supervise everything.

Good luck Guy!

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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #25 on: 9 Jan 2011, 05:27 pm »
 Guy from an Architectural standpoint your idea is sound. My only concern is sound treatment between the floor to the rooms below. Another concern would be access to bring in gear. Door openings and stairs in particular.
   Materials such as stucco or adobe walls would be good for your climate. A tiled floor may introduce some issues. Bamboo ? or do the termites like that as well ?
  You may consider bringing an electric panel with dedicated circuits right up to the room. Stick to incadescent lighting with separate fixtures not in the clg, no flourescent or Halogen.  The clg. in lieu of a just a slanted one can be a bamboo curved affair like a big wave with the slant still mantained.  Then you could use some accent lighting above and floor cans. Irregular surfaces are a good thing.
  I am a retired Architect and Costr. Mgr if you need a brain to pick. As always have fun which i feel you will.


charles

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #26 on: 10 Jan 2011, 08:51 am »
Keep on posting Guy! You'll get some input and suggestions here. I understand the fun and challenge of learning something yourself, and geting input from others to work around potential issues.

I have no direct experience, but have planned an add on room which will be a dedicated HT/Listening room. It's only in the basic concept stages with dimensions in mind along with how I want the final project to look - modeled after a room at a high end store in San Diego. Spend a bit of time learning about the golden ratio and speaker positioning before you come up with final dimensions.

One story I read while learning about this stuff that I will put here - the design called for non parallel walls in order to reduce some acoustical issues. The contractor figured it was a misprint and "corrected" the "problem". In other words, if you do anything unusual, go over the plans carefully with whoever is doing the work, or make sure you closely supervise everything.

Good luck Guy!
Hi SoCalWJS and all Audio Circle members.
How about if I call you WJS, it's easier.
Yes, I want to keep posting especially when Audio Circle members like you encourage me to do so...
If I am still posting on Audio Circle, it's becasue I am having lots of fun, I am having a ball... and at the same time, I am learning lots of things from other Audio Circle members.
I did and I am still doing lots of reading on the Internet.
Haaaa... The Internet what a wonderful invention, tons of information on everything and it's free...
I am surprised that you have an hi-end store that has a decent listening room, here in Vietnam, there no such a thing as a listening room, they have rooms... I even saw a room where all the floor, ceiling and all the walls were covered with industrial carpet, Ozite type outdoor carpet... LOL.
When I got my first house built here in Vietnam, the one below...



I took three months of every day, every minute of supervision.
Now that I have the experience, it will be a little easier, but this new house I want to built, is a much bigger project, I will need to invest more of my time.



I made the architec redo the preliminary blue prints three time and I am sure the final blue prints will need to be corrected, I have to stay on top of this project.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and good luck with any and all your future projects.
By the way, do you have any of Danny's stuff?
Have a nice week.
Guy 13

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #27 on: 10 Jan 2011, 10:24 am »
Guy from an Architectural standpoint your idea is sound. My only concern is sound treatment between the floor to the rooms below. Another concern would be access to bring in gear. Door openings and stairs in particular.
   Materials such as stucco or adobe walls would be good for your climate. A tiled floor may introduce some issues. Bamboo ? or do the termites like that as well ?
  You may consider bringing an electric panel with dedicated circuits right up to the room. Stick to incadescent lighting with separate fixtures not in the clg, no flourescent or Halogen.  The clg. in lieu of a just a slanted one can be a bamboo curved affair like a big wave with the slant still mantained.  Then you could use some accent lighting above and floor cans. Irregular surfaces are a good thing.
  I am a retired Architect and Costr. Mgr if you need a brain to pick. As always have fun which i feel you will.
charles

Good morning Charles.
Thanks for your post; it’s appreciated more than you think, which simply means: It’s highly appreciated.
Please don’t be concerned about the music disturbing the neighbors, because up stairs there is no one, I am on the roof, down stairs, it’s my wife and I  apartment, all around, there no one, and here in Vietnam, everybody makes noise, therefore, why not me?
My noise will be hi-fidelity noise…
The access to my listening room (and office) will be done via large stairs (4 feet wide) and the doors will be 36 inches wide.
It’s not the first house that I am building; this new project will be my house # 5.
As for the stucco suggestion, the idea is good and I am sure it’s very efficient at diffusing sound waves, but I hate the look of stucco, it reminds me of the Spanish style and I sure don’t like the Spanish style, but thank anyway for the suggestion.
For the adobe, according to the dictionary, it’s some old style bricks; that might be something I might consider.
It’s easy to find here in Vietnam and not too expensive.
I came up with this idea, not sure if it makes sense.
If they are installed at different depth and painted a nice color, it might even look good on top of being efficient at diffusing the sound with the holes in the bricks.



The floor will be made of 12” armored concrete with ceramic tiles on it; however, I will have a thick Asian carpet with a good under carpet and it will cover 75% of the floor area.
The bamboo is not the termites favorite dish, however they do eat it, but if it’s painted with a clear varnish, it will give them some stomach hake, but bamboo will make my listening room look like a resort on the sea side. Again, thanks for the idea.
You will start thinking that I am very difficult to satisfy.

It was my intention to have a dedicated electrical control panel with a voltage stabilizer (A must for every house here in Vietnam.) only for the listening room, with several circuit breakers.
I am the son of an electrical contractor. Back in Canada 15 years ago and for more than 20 years I have designed and built industrial electrical control panels and I am graduated from an electronic college, therefore, I sure don’t want to sound like a smart cookie, but I do have some basic knowledge, but again, thanks for the advice, it’s appreciated.

The lighting will be the new energy saving pig tail bulbs with indirect lighting, however they will be turned off when the audition will begin and the incandescent bulbs will be turn on only for ambiance lightning, they will look like this one.



Purchased from Tube Depot for round 10 USD.


I am still thinking how I will tackle the problem of the ceiling;
I know the contractor will tell me it’s difficult to do a slanted ceiling and might want to charge me an arm and a leg for it.
I might go with a standard straight ceiling with absorption panels ? ? ?
Any more suggestions with that ?
I have to do more thinking for this (IMPORTANT) project.
I am trying to look for answers for the following questions/problems.
However, I will keep searching for answers on the Internet, in the mean time, any ideas, suggestions are welcome.
<< Front wall: (The wall behind the speakers)
    Diffusion right?
    How about, shelves with all kind of stuff like CD, LPs, books,
    Vase, and audio stuff of course…
<< Back wall: (The wall behind the listening chair.)
    Diffusion or absorption? (Not sure)
<< Side walls: Parallel or not? Either ways, it’s easy to build.
<< Ceiling: slanted or straight?
   (That’s my biggest problem or decision.)
On my next post I might include a hand sketch on how I see my listening room. A hand sketch made with a shaking hand and not a computer generated nice looking layout.
Waiting, waiting and more waiting, plus searching and more searching…
Guy 13.





 

nickd

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #28 on: 10 Jan 2011, 04:39 pm »
I would go with the flat celing. Most of Danny's speakers are designed so that "celing and floor reflection" problems are minimal. My opionion for what its worth.

I have a friend who spent thousands of dollars installing a dome shape celing in his listening room. :duh: Years later he demolished it and install a flat ceiling with some well placed acoustic treatment panels. It sounds much better now. A very expensive lesson.  :lol:

HT cOz

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #29 on: 10 Jan 2011, 04:51 pm »
Hey I know you are trying not to use absorbtion however you need to control the ringing (decay of the music) of the room.  Especially in one built using cement blocks.  I found this calculator usefull http://www.atsacoustics.com/page--Free-Online-Room-Acoustics-Analysis--ora.html

Do you have access to Rockwool in Vietnam?  Have you thought about the dead end live end room concept.  I think diffraction is hard to pull off in the size of rooms that we enjoy our audio. 

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #30 on: 11 Jan 2011, 07:09 am »
I would go with the flat celing. Most of Danny's speakers are designed so that "celing and floor reflection" problems are minimal. My opionion for what its worth.

I have a friend who spent thousands of dollars installing a dome shape celing in his listening room. :duh: Years later he demolished it and install a flat ceiling with some well placed acoustic treatment panels. It sounds much better now. A very expensive lesson.  :lol:
Hi Nick and all Audio Circle members.
The more I think about it, the more I think I will go with a flat ceiling, however, I have to get to the idea that I will need some acoustic treatment.
By the way, your opinion and the opinion of all Audio Circle members is worth a lot to me, thanks.
(That also include JTWRace...)
I think at the end of my research for the ideal listening room design, just prior to the beginning of the construction of our 5 stories/floors house, I will go with the simplest design... It's not a matter of money, but it's because I don't want to spend 20 hours a day watching and checking the conmtractor to make sure he does things right, here with everything build with concrete, when you want to change something, it's not as easy as with 2X4 and gyproc...
Please keep watching my posts, I have more questions coming.
Guy 13


Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #31 on: 11 Jan 2011, 07:24 am »
Hey I know you are trying not to use absorbtion however you need to control the ringing (decay of the music) of the room.  Especially in one built using cement blocks.  I found this calculator usefull http://www.atsacoustics.com/page--Free-Online-Room-Acoustics-Analysis--ora.html
Do you have access to Rockwool in Vietnam?  Have you thought about the dead end live end room concept.  I think diffraction is hard to pull off in the size of rooms that we enjoy our audio.
Hi HT and all Audio Circle members.
I don't want to use absorbtion panels, but if I have no choice, (And it's going toward that way...) I will try to use as little as I can.
Your link to the calculator is great, thanks a lot.
It's simple to use and as lots of options.
Also they sell some kit panels at very affordable price, who knows, I might buy from them what I need, if I need them.
I could build the absorbtion panels myself, but running around Ho Chi Minh City to get the tissus and wood, etc.. It's a big lost of time and if I do it myself, they charge me more money, because I am a foreigner, yes, that's right, those Vietnamese don't miss a change to make money with the rich foreigners. (LOL)
Rockwool, fiberglass, etc... are rare commodities here in Vietnam.
By the way, the floor will have 75% of thick carpet, the ceiling will be plaster over cement, the walls, well, I was thinking of using the bricks shown in the picture above, in a random pattern to act as diffusion...
Look as if my listening room will be 4X5 or 5X6 meters (13'X16' or 16'X20')
depending on the size of the house.
Thanks again for your opinion and the link, it's highly appreciated.
Guy 13

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #32 on: 11 Jan 2011, 09:34 am »
Hey I know you are trying not to use absorbtion however you need to control the ringing (decay of the music) of the room.  Especially in one built using cement blocks.  I found this calculator usefull http://www.atsacoustics.com/page--Free-Online-Room-Acoustics-Analysis--ora.html

Do you have access to Rockwool in Vietnam?  Have you thought about the dead end live end room concept.  I think diffraction is hard to pull off in the size of rooms that we enjoy our audio.
Hi (Again) HT and all Audio Circle members.
I spent more than two hours reading every corner of ATS Acoustics website and I must say this is a fantastic place to get information on absorbtion panels and to buy either assembled panels or panel in DIY kits and on top of that, their prices are unbeatable. Why risk cutting some fingers while trying to make some panels, when you can buy already asembled panels for a few dollars.
I hope some Audio Circle members will take advantage of that suppliers for absorbtion panels. (ATS Acoustic can also supply bass traps.)
Thanks for the link, you made my research a lot easier.
Guy 13

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #33 on: 11 Jan 2011, 10:09 am »
Hi all Audio Circle members.
After lots of surfing on the Internet and long hours of reading this is the result of my research for my (Ideal) listening room.
However, this is far from being my final design, any Audio Circle members can contribute (Jump in including JRWrace) to increase my acoustic treatment knowledge.
Below is a top view.




A) Wall to wall shelving to act as diffusion panel/wall.
(It will be filled with all sorts of stuff, CD, LPs, books, vase…)
B) Bass trap in each four corners. (If required.)
(I will buy a SPL meter to see if the bass traps are needed.)
C) First reflection absorption side walls panels.
(They will be required, that’s for sure.)
D) Ceiling absorption panels.
(They will be required, that’s for sure.)
E) Angled walls.
(Still thinking if it’s a good idea.)
F) Adobe side walls.
(To act as diffusion and/or absorption walls.)
I will use bricks with holes installed at different depth.
G) For the back wall, can’t find anywhere if it’s supposed to be
    an absorption or diffusion wall.

All Audio Circle members, get to your key board and start making your fingers dancing to let me konw your thoughts and ideas...
1 - 2 - 3 - GO !
Guy 13


 

jtwrace

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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #34 on: 11 Jan 2011, 01:05 pm »
any Audio Circle members can contribute (Jump in including JRWrace) to increase my acoustic treatment knowledge.
Guy 13

http://www.gikacoustics.com/

http://www.realtraps.com/

http://gedlee.com/Papers.htm


HT cOz

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #35 on: 11 Jan 2011, 02:49 pm »
Guy,

Looks like you are making good progress on your plan.  I'm glad you liked the ATS link.  I purchased RockWool and the Microsuede fabric from them.  Both products were boxed well and of great quality.

Another quality company I found for bass traps is Next Acoustics.  www.nextacoustics dot com  I really liked these bass traps.  If you have a larger order (Multiple boxes) you can email them for a custom quote and the price goes down by about 50%.  I found that hot glue secured them to the wall very well.

You could use a product like this for all the floor/ceiling/wall to wall intersections.  The more you use the cleaner your bass response will be.  It is a case where more is more.  Someone can correct me is I am wrong but when it comes to bass traps its the stored energy that it helps to decay quickly that makes the difference.  I don't know that it will show up with a simple mic and bass tones, but if you were to run a waterfall plot you could see the improvement.

Also don't forget the Acoustics Circle right here on AudioCircle.  I have seen some amazing projects one there.  Some totally blow your mind projects that have a lot of value in looking at.

Thanks,
Robert

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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #36 on: 11 Jan 2011, 10:32 pm »
A fresh take on some things for you...
http://www.gedlee.com/Home_theatre.htm

Geddes is acoustic researcher foremost. Don't let the "theater" in the title distract you from the solid audio advice found within...

If you are creating a room from scratch, this is a great investment before you lock in to anything.

-Tony

goskers

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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #37 on: 11 Jan 2011, 11:08 pm »
A couple things that I don't see in your print are the loudspeakers and seating position.  The seating position should not be against a wall.  Firing your loudspeakers down the long portion of the room is good but not having a symmetrical room will cause the one side to perform differently than the other.  Will this be noticeable in your situation, I'm just not sure.

If you are able to control the dampening of bass outside the usage of fiberglass then I would recommend it.  You want to keep your room reflective which provides a sense of spaciousness.  Fiberglass is much better at the absorption of higher frequencies than lower.  For other methods I would highly recommend you consult Dr Geddes home theater book as posted above.

Rocket_Ronny

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Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #38 on: 12 Jan 2011, 12:56 am »

Flat ceiling is a mistake.  :nono:


Rocket_round earth_Ronny

Guy 13

Re: I am back with another project. (Listening room)
« Reply #39 on: 12 Jan 2011, 02:29 am »
http://www.gikacoustics.com/

http://www.realtraps.com/

http://gedlee.com/Papers.htm
Hi JTW and all Audio Circle members.
Thanks for the three links.
I went surfing on all three of them and found some information that can be useful for my project.
Thanks again.
Guy 13
Note:
JTW you can jump in any time you want, I promise I will try to react in a more civilised matter to your suggestions and comments...