[neobop]

Why would AT custom make a unit for CA that exceeds anything in their own line up?

Sorry if it seems like I'm beating this to death, but that's an important question. Maybe AT was unaware that the generators were top quality? I think they were very much aware. They had to know that CA sold uber expensive MCs. They also probably figured that it would eventually get out that they were ATs in high end clothing. This would help the company. AT has a reputation of being a mass market manufacturer. If CA accolades were for an AT type generator/stylus, that would be prestigious for AT. The contract is probably lucrative also. My Virtuoso measured within 1 ohm between channels. I guess CA is paying for high end type matching.

David and I were discussing on another thread, how modern companies seem to be getting away from making the great carts of the past. Like rock/pop radio stations they try for the highest output and sacrifice the resistance/inductance specs. I noticed recently that AT seems to be making a conscious effort to voice the carts differently. The 33EV has an aluminum cantilever and an elliptical. It's said to have a nice balance. The OC9MLIII is redesigned and has a boron/line contact. That too is said to be a little more mellow. It will be interesting to see if AT redesigns the 150MLX. If they sacrifice some output and get the impedance/inductance down, it might outperform the CAs at 47K.

It seems like the vinyl resurgence is going stronger than ever. It's sort of like the late '80s when the awful sounding CD reared it's head and most people were hanging on to their record players for dear life. Digital is much better now if what you listen too happens to be on a newer recording or decent remaster. I have some new stuff on CD and some of it sounds pretty good. I also have records that haven't been digitized. Somehow digital is still less involving. Maybe it's continuous vs sampled, I'm not sure. Record players are cool and fun to mess with. Like modifying a car, it's a hobby. When was the last time you changed the laser on your transport? They say PC based digital can be even better. Good for them! I'm glad vinyl is going strong. I can still get involved when listening, and improving the set-up.
neo

[glrickaby]

Raul touched on the AT connection in his Virtuoso review on Agon. Also mentioned connection in
his Agon review on the AT20SS... My problem is I'm cartridge driven(because of the small size)
rather than hardware driven and given the limitations of my various Duals and my top piece being
a Rega 3/2000 with upgrades, it becomes a matching problem with cartridges where one must
not overkill with a cartridge on the priced equipment I'm using. I guess balance is the word.
Consequently, I'm always bottom feeding so to speak...An AT,Shure or Orto with a better stylus,
a lower end LOMC such as the Samba... Units always bought used. Buying and selling to support
my habit...but never being able to afford a VPI (except my cleaning machine), buying a broken
Virtuoso instead of a whole one... Realizing I'll never have most of the equipment reviewed in
Stereophile for buyers that I can't believe really exist,yet again with the rationalization that after
all,most vinyl really is not capable of performance on the level of my unobtainable equipment
desires anyway! But as Neo says, it still is fun to fool around! Maybe my next garage sale will
have a 301 or 401 Garrard for $10, or another $17 1229!

[neobop]

GL,
I don't think all that's entirely true. You obviously can hear a qualitative difference. I bet if you put a great high compliance cart on one of your Duals, you could hear the improvement over a mediocre cart. Previously you spoke about preferring some Garrotts over ATs. I assume that comes from what you heard - results. It's been my experience that a crappy sounding disk sounds bad on a modest or high end set-up. Maybe on the high end system a little more of the crap is revealed and there might not be tone controls to help get through it. On the other hand I have 50+ yr old records that sound great on any decent player. Don't be intimidated. There is no holy grail. It doesn't exist. Everybody wants "the best". Ever notice that the best varies with every reviewer and self appointed guru? In the old days reviewers were bribed with gifts of the equipment they reviewed. Impartial, objective? LOL that's about as likely as finding a politician who's not in a big corporation's pocket.

I transplanted a 7V stylus into that Jico plug you gave me. I had it on the 95 and it was sounding good - better than a Jico SA. I have another Jico shibata for the Stanton 980. It seems better on there than the one on the Virtuoso. I went to switch the 7V to the CA and noticed it looked slightly askew. So I "fixed" it and then had to fix it again cause it was crooked. This really isn't a user replaceable stylus. There seems to be a big gap between the Jico and a real AT. I don't know why. I think the 7V is very close to the orig stylus. CA lists the cu at 15 and VTF at 2g+. The 7V is 7cu @ 100Hz. I don't have the 7V body. They say it's a reissue of a Signet TK-7_. Raul got his Virtuoso with a busted cantilever too. He sent it to Soundsmith and got an alum/ellip. Not a bad idea for someone with a CA. I've had a couple of MCs re-tipped by Soundsmith and he does great work. I wonder how it would sound with a ruby cantilever? 
neo

[dlaloum]

Go on... you know you want to..... ruby - listen to the way that rrrrolls off your tongue... rrruby....... and imagine what it might sound like on your turntable....

Yours truly
Mephistopheles....

[glrickaby]

Could be the Jico is not a Jico. Understand there are 3 makers in Japan. May have picked that up
from the Turntable Needles site. In any case, the Jico is bonded whereas the AT7V is a nude,
square shank, tapered shaft. Though not a Shibata, it is .0002 Elliptical which in my book, means
it has a somewhat less astringent sound than a Shibata bonded. I use my AT7V in its original gold
body. Also am currently using a Excel S700ER 0.2 x 0.8 in my Garrott K-2 body which may be higher
quality than the original K-2 stylus. Sounds so good, I sold my other new K-2 where Decibel sent
me a complete unit when I only ordered the stylus. Incidently, I sold my Virtuoso/Shibata finally
to finance ongoing.....who knows? Am also playing an At13EA body with a Precept 220 stylus-
trimmed down of course, which is quite similar to the AT7V. I had Soundsmith do a BPS retip
and then broke it again....glad it wasn't a "Ruuuuby! (ha) Incidently, NOS AT Precept 220's are
going for 2@69.00 on the Bay if any of you experimentors need good AT styli.

[neobop]

I didn't know there were 3 aftermarket stylus companies in Japan. I know there are only a couple of diamond cutters that make tips for styli. Maybe that explains the difference in results. My Stanton shibata (Jico) sounds better than the 95 one I bought. I think I got it from Needles and the Stanton one from Gear. The Precept plug fits the AT-13? Is that the same plug as the 15/20? Isn't that high cu, VTF- 1.5g? I'm getting a little gun shy with this transplant thing. They break so easily. You have to keep redoing it to get it perfect. My instinct is to tighten down like a cart mounting screw. Boron or beryllium will snap right in half. Even aluminum will crease and break if you bend it a few times. LpGear has a Precept 550ML stylus - beryllium cant - for $200. I'm not getting anything exotic right now, though. That Precept 220 stylus deal is a good one.
neo

[glrickaby]

The AT13 has the thin sled so the Precept 220 will only fit if you trim down the sides but no stylus
transplant is necessary. Believe higher numbers than 13 also have the thinner sled. Actually, any
round plug stylus will fit with the sidewalls trimmed. The Precept 220 stylus and shaft look like a
clone of the AT7V but the AT7V has the rectangular plug I believe so an actual transplant would
be necessary....@2 for $69, the Precept 220 would be a good deal for AT15-20, provided they have
the round plug as a side haircut is pretty simple. Since I don't have the higher numbers, don't know
for shure.(ha) Haven't been able to find specs on the 220 but believe it is higher compliance than the
AT7V which resembles it, except for the plug. I have two 220's, one trimmed and one not. The nice
thing is I can still use the trimmed one on the Precept body.

[neobop]

That's what I thought. The 15/20 have a round plug and an angle on the bottom of the body. Sometimes the plug might fit and the angle is wrong. If you trim down a 120/440 plug to fit a 95, it still won't work cause of the angle of the cantilever. On page 1 of this thread there is a pic of the bottom of a 15. Your 7V is the same as the 2nd series of Signet TK7__ The plug is the same as a modern 120/440. You could use one of those styli on your 7V w/o trimming. However, the 7V wings are too tall to use on a 120/440. With a little trim on the sides, it's a perfect fit.

A little note about voicing - I put a 140LC stylus on my 440. That's a nude line contact with a tapered cantilever. It tracks at 1.5. After a few hrs loosening up it sounds great at 47K. Capacitance is around 100pF or so. The 140 is high cu. I have it on my Alphason with 10" cable, going into the AHT. With stock stylus I used to load it at 32K.
neo

[neobop]

Some thoughts on voicing; I wound up with a 39K load on the 440 with the 140LC stylus. I also changed an acrylic mat for a thinner hard rubber one that came with the Kenwood 770d. I have it on an Alphason 100S/KD500. It was a tad bass shy at 47K. Changing the mat got rid of a little mid/treble glare. The  mat that came with the 770 is the only rubber mat I really like. Voicing a cart/stylus is no different really than changing stuff around to find the right combo. The 440/120 cart body is exceptionally tricky. It seems that a capacitance load of < 200pF is manditory. With this cart I got best results with a Sonus unipivot, modified to approx 5.5g eff mass. I also had a 152ML stylus on there. That's beryllium. It's important to remember that using a different stylus necessitates using the VTF (cu) of the stylus. It doesn't matter what the orig VTF was. The 140LC is high cu and I would probably get better results on one of my lighter arms.

That brings us to the Clearaudio MMs. All the alum cantilevered CA seem to have a straight cantilever, not tapered. Raul (the guy who reviewed the cart on Agon) reported that Soundsmith said it was a bonded tip. I never saw the orig tip so that's all I have to go on. It's starting to look like CA has bodies by AT and styli by Jico. I don't know this for a fact, but Jico has the capability to make the Maestro boron/micro tips. It could be an SAS type. All the alum cantilever Jico tips have straight cantilevers. Whatever, the Soundsmith tipped cart that was reviewed had a tapered cantilever with a nude .3 x .7 elliptical. But why stop there?

How to tame an AT:
Cantilevers - My findings indicate that aluminum tends to have less control and a more robust sound. Exotics are more rigid so fine detail goes up and excursions go down. It's the movements of the cantilever that excite the generator, so it's importance shouldn't be underestimated. Often an alum cantilever is preferred.

Tips - The AT ML tip seems to be the same as a micro ridge. It tends to be hot in the high end. An exotic cantilever will aleviate this to a large extent. The difference between a 440ML (alum) tip and an exotic ML seems pretty dramatic. I was listening to the 440/152ML at 47K and it sounded good, really good. The 440/140LC combo was still a little hot. So in this case the cantilever made a bigger difference than going to an LC.

The shibata is slightly soft on the extreme high end which can also be taken into account for voicing. The contact area is not like that of a micro though. It's more like a line contact. It sits low in the groove so you must have clean records. The Jico tips are bonded, except for the SAS. They are very high quality for bonded. It doesn't have a giant metal plate, but it's not a nude square shank either. I think CAs approach to voicing their AT generator is BS. With the retail prices being what they are, the least they could give you is a tapered cantilever and a nude tip. LOL, it looks as if you could buy the least expensive CA, put a Jico AT95 SE on there, and have a Virtuoso! Like I said before, I don't know if there are any internal differences between models, but they all appear to share the same generator. Don't get me wrong, I think this is an excellent generator. Buying a busted one is a great way to go. The alum/ellip from Soundsmith is $150.
neo

[glrickaby]

Neo- I went directly to the JICO website, not LPGear or Turntable Needles. They do not offer an
AT95SA. All the 95 types are shown with 3400 series type numbers and the most expensive is
a 3451@56.00 which is green and shown as manufactured by Audio Technica. My conclusion is
the 3400 SA or HE offered by LPG and TTN is not manufactured by JICO but someone else. Why
would JICO make these for the two vendors but not offer them at their own website? I would
agree the best course is probably a Soundsmith retread on a used CA, but don't understand
why Raul would get such a good result on a .0003 x .0007 Bonded elliptical when the LPGear
and TT Needles site are selling a bonded HE or Shibata for less money?.. It would almost seem
that a nude ML or other transplant to a plug fitting the CA would yield a better result, even
with the trouble of the transplant being such a pain. Why wouldn't a 440ML transplant to the
CA plug (salvaged from elsewhere as the CA plug itself is not usable), yield the best results
with a nude tapered ML on the CA? Even an AT7V or Precept 220, transplant would yield a
.0002 x .0007 nude square shank which is a step up from a Soundsmith? I just bought a $22
.0002 x .0007 Bonded Pfanstiehl for my AT13Ea which would transplant to a salvaged plug to a CA?
Probably not the diamond quality but it sure sounds good. I notice that CA bodies are now
going for around $150 in BETA S or Virtuoso so others are obviously on to this too.... Apparently
the Maestro does have a tapered Boron LC stylus which may be nude. Sorry for the Rambling-
the air is thin here in Colorado.....

[dlaloum]

A couple of things I have noticed about Jico and their website...

1) Not all the stuff they make is up on their website... there are styli they currently make and/or used to make that are not there

2) There are additional styli on the Japanese language website (I used Chrome browser with the google auto translate function) - the Japanese language website also has additional information about the styli

3) They obviously custom manufacture styli to order (especially for larger orders) - and some of these may not end up on their website.

TurntableNeedles, LPGear and Garage-A-Record all sell Jico styli, but I believe they also sell other Japanese manufactured styli.... there are I believe at least 2 other Japanese stylus manufacturers.

So we are in fact guessing as to whether the ATN95SA styli sold by TTN & LPGear are made by Jico or by someone else (and they may be from 2 different manufacturers!)

With regards to sound profile / results.... cantilever has a greater impact on the sound than the needle does.... (at least once you get past conical and 0.4mil eliptical)
And when I say cantilever, I include the suspension and damping...

So I have a TK9e 0.2 mil eliptical which is a fabulous sounding cartridge.... but it is a nude square shanked needle on a berillium cantilever.... and there was a step up from that which was an ML on the same cantilever.
That TK9e will take on and beat many a lesser Shibata / MicroLine because of the quality of the cantilever.

If you take an AT95 and have a SS Ruby cantilever with TOTL needle put on it, you can expect exceptional results.... to get the best from it would of course require other steps (potting, non-resonant mounting, fixed stylus mount, etc... etc...) - but might well match or beat all but the top CA cartridges...

How much better could it be if the same was done with an AT150 body? (or an AT15/20, or TK9/10 ?)

bye for now

David

[*Scotty*]

neobop, you might want to revisit some of your assessments of the sound difference between the AT 150 ML and the AT 440ML styli. The AT 150ML has a Vertical Tracking Angle of 23 degrees and the AT 440 ML has a VTA of 20 degrees. These specs are from the AT owners manual. The AT150ML was found on-line, the 440ML specs are from my own owners manual. The difference in the VTAs between the two styli may also be a partial explanation of the difference observed in how the two styli reproduce the upper midrange and high-end.
Scotty

[dlaloum]

You will find the frequency response plot for the AT440MLa up on my website...

I did not mess with VTA adjustement - instead I used the basic assumption that the manufacturers intention would be met when the cartridge is perfectly level... I adjust the arm using a small spirit level and flat topped headshells...

The F-R for the AT440MLa clearly shows why  the AT440MLa sounds the way it does,  and when you deduct the LCR response from that plot, what is exposed is primarily cantilever resonance - which is present from below 10k and reaches peak between 14k and 16k Hz

The ATN152LP stylus on the other hand (I don't have an ATN150MLx) has its peak (cantilever resonance) up around 21kHz, with influence down to around 15kHz.... so the resonance has far less impact on the main audible range. - I believe the ATN150MLx is tuned in a similar way.

I am not convinced by the VTA difference - I believe that is a reflection of the way the stylus cantilever/suspension is tuned - and with the higher compliance of the 150MLx - the variance in VTA may be related to slighly greater flex of the cantilever...

Bye for now

David

[krenzler]

there are I believe at least 2 other Japanese stylus manufacturers.

Namiki & Ogura?

[neobop]

GL,
The cartridge reviewed on Agon had a Soundsmith nude .3 mil on a tapered alum cantilever. I really don't know the parentage of the aftermarket styli. The ones sold by TT needles could be made in China for all I know. I bought a 150MLX stylus from them that I suspect was counterfeit. It was not in the proper AT box and was improperly put in a generic plastic box so it was bouncing around. It could have been taken off a new 150MLX, but wasn't even secured for shipping. The ML tip is extremely fragile. So is a boron cantilever. When I removed it from the plug it seemed to fall apart w/o any pressure or force. All I did was loosen the screw and it came out in 2 pieces.

I believe LpGear is the US distributor for Jico. I can't say they sell Jico exclusively as aftermarket, but my limited experience is that their replacement styli are higher quality. I assume they have distributor pricing and it would probably be to their advantage to buy in bulk - big orders. Needles sells a 95SA cheaper. I doubt if they could do this if they were getting them from Gear. BTW, LpGear has 3 Internet outlets. LpTunes and Atelier Something are also LpGear. When I buy a modern AT stylus from them it comes in an orig AT box. Vintage AT styli don't have the box. My mistrust of Needles is based on a couple of bad experiences. I've had no problems with Gear.

A high quality bonded tip can outperform a cheap nude one. I have a Pickering 3001 - .2 mil nude stylus for my 980. I also have a shibata from Gear. At first I thought the .2 was slightly better. After using the shibata for awhile, it was a toss up. I think I might actually prefer the shibata. The Pickering isn't a cheapo, it's an orig from KAB. A well made bonded tip won't add a lot of mass and diamond quality/polish is a big factor. All other things are never equal and sometimes you get what you pay for. That's why I guessed that Jico might be the stylus OEM for CA. CA might be charging way high prices but they're not stupid. If the carts didn't perform they wouldn't have the accolades. This is probably the best MM generator AT has produced in the last 30 or 40 yrs. Instead of a deluxe case it has a wood top. Whatever works.
neo

[dlaloum]

I find the idea that AT (who have a certain pride in their product) would sell their best engine through a third party exclusively, extremely strange.... possibly non-credible (as opposed to incredible).

I find it far more credible that an excellent existing generator would be onsold to a third party who would modify it further themselves...

An existing generator might also be a recently discontinued production item - the line would still be capable of producing it....

I just think we have not identified the exact model being used - rather than assuming that AT would be manufacturing their very best for a third party.

bye for now

David

[neobop]

Scotty,
VTA is one of the most misused terms pertaining to record players. I often misuse it myself. It really refers to the angle of the cantilever. SRA, stylus rake angle, refers to the angle of the tip. It makes no difference if the VTA differs when I make long term comparisons. I adjust arm height, by ear,  according to individual results. It often takes 3 to 5 hrs to break in the suspension of a new stylus assembly. I don't think you can pull one off and slap another on, and get any kind of meaningful results.

I never did a direct comparison of an ATN150MLX and an ATN440MLa. The exotic ML I had was an ATN152ML - beryllium. The cu is much higher on the 152 and I was using it on a very low mass arm. It was not a direct comparison and the combination might have been a factor. Never the less, that is my impression of results. I'm certainly not alone in loading a stock 440 at 32K. I don't use another body to cancel inductance, but I use low capacitance load. The upper mid glare I mentioned was caused by the acrylic mat. Sorry if that was unclear. I still think the cantilever made a bigger difference (in loading) than going to a less aggressive LC tip. I'll have to try it on a lower mass arm as the 140 is also high cu. I don't think results will change.
neo

[glrickaby]

I just think we have not identified the exact model being used -

David- Per your quote above, I find it interesting that the
old Linn K-9 which they had put free on their turntables, has
the exact same body as the CA-that is the slightly shorter
one, compared to the AT95E. In fact the N95E is often
suggested as a replacement, even though it leaves a small
gap at the front. So what is the magic that CA performs
for their excellent reviews?

[neobop]

With regards to sound profile / results.... cantilever has a greater impact on the sound than the needle does.... (at least once you get past conical and 0.4mil eliptical)
And when I say cantilever, I include the suspension and damping...

So I have a TK9e 0.2 mil eliptical which is a fabulous sounding cartridge.... but it is a nude square shanked needle on a berillium cantilever.... and there was a step up from that which was an ML on the same cantilever.
That TK9e will take on and beat many a lesser Shibata / MicroLine because of the quality of the cantilever.

If you take an AT95 and have a SS Ruby cantilever with TOTL needle put on it, you can expect exceptional results.... to get the best from it would of course require other steps (potting, non-resonant mounting, fixed stylus mount, etc... etc...) - but might well match or beat all but the top CA cartridges...

How much better could it be if the same was done with an AT150 body? (or an AT15/20, or TK9/10 ?)
David

David,
I sort of agree about your cantilever statement, all things being equal. But they never are and I think you underestimate other factors.  So far it seems like the 95 does not have quite the potential of the Virtuoso. I don't have a ruby/micro to compare them, but with the other styli I consistently get more harmonic detail with the CA. The potted 95 is really nice in it's own right. It's very enjoyable, but I hear what's missing when I switch to the CA. As I said previously, maybe I don't have enough hrs on it. Some ATs take forever to fully break in. I keep thinking that I'm prejudging because I know it doesn't have OCC wire and the impedance is 2.8K. I'll get it going again and let you know if things change. Believe me, I'd like nothing better than a modded 95 beating or equalling the Virtuoso. So far it's not happening.

I think that using a level to set VTA/SRA is a mistake. This has to be done by ear or a test record. You're working with mass market carts and should expect some variance. What if a suspension is sagging slightly or you vary the VTF?  You should do all your samples over!!    Really, IMO you have to find the sweet spot whether it's level or not.
neo

[*Scotty*]

neo,I used the VTA term even though it often mis-applied because it is found in the product literature and readers of the thread are may be more familiar with this term than SRA/Stylus Rake Angle.
Did you feel you had better high frequency detail from the beryllium cantilever or the tapered aluminum cantilever? Regarding the AT 95, did you notice the presence of a Mu-Metal shield between the coils when you were in there potting the body of the cartridge. I suspect its presence or absence will figure into the separation specs and into how the cartridge sounds.
I have been considering trying the AT150 ML stylus,boron cantilever, on my AT 440 ML. It should be a direct swap and I might get better low level resolution as well as high frequency resolution when compared to stock stylus due to a higher resonant frequency of the cantilever and the stiffer cantilever loosing less information into flexation. My cartridge loading is a total of 10kohms to ground and somewhere in the megohms looking at the preamp input from the output of the cartridge. The signal is taken from the junction of two 5k ohm resistors, one in series with the cartridge output and the other in series to ground with the cartridge body.
Scotty