[dlaloum]

You know Neo, those plugs end up looking a LOT like a AT25/TK9 style stylus....

Have you tested the CA bodies for inductance/resistance balance?

I am curious to know how tight their specs are, especially on the lower end versions...

[glrickaby]

The Atn95e/3400 stylus will in fact fit the TK9 body. There is a gap at the  front which doesn't hurt anything other than looking funny. Since the TK9 stylus is no longer made, this is in fact the only solution to continue using the TK body if it needs a stylus.

[dlaloum]

The Atn95e/3400 stylus will in fact fit the TK9 body. There is a gap at the  front which doesn't hurt anything other than looking funny. Since the TK9 stylus is no longer made, this is in fact the only solution to continue using the TK body if it needs a stylus.

Actually the TK9/10 are the signet versions of the AT24/25, and the AT22/24/25 styli fit just fine..

My TK9e is currently running with a NOS ATN25 and sounding great....

But given the every climbing pricing of replacement needles for these - and the fact that the replacement needles are now very close to the price of a new cantilever & needle from a retipper....

The possibility of creating a hybrid with even higher performance than the original exists!

And with the screwed in original AT/TK styli for these the vibrational properties should be on a par (or better?) than the CA approach with a adhesive attached AT95 type plug...

As another interesting aside - for those who (like me) particularly like the p-mount's, the AT95 and the AT92/3472 families share the stylus plug - although the rest of the surround differs...

There is an opportunity there to concoct something with potentially CA-Maestro like performance for p-mount setups....

Neo - did you mention earlier that you had potted an AT95? And if so, have you documented the process?

bye for now

David

[dlaloum]

I just woke up to the fact that I have a bunch of AT92 type bodies lying around... 

Applying the lessons from the Maestro should allow the creation of something nice... 

[glrickaby]

I've cut back the wings on a 3003 AT stylus-same as AT92E and used the plug on a Clearaudio
Virtuoso. The sound was O.K. but could have been better- the diamond may have been worn.
I'm sure the same plug will work on an AT95E, though possbly not an advantage as the AT92E
type is actually a pretty good cartridge in its own right....I have a generic from "Ed"? which is a
.0002 x .0007 or 8 which may actually be higher quality than the 92E and would probably work
on a Clearaudio or AT95E body, though again, probably not an improvement on the AT95E
compared to sticking it in the 3003/92E body... However, clip the wings on an AT92E and it will
probably fit your K-9?

[neobop]

Hi guys,
David, there's a couple of pics of my potted 95 on page 1 of this thread. With just about any AT (I think) there's a screw holding the top onto the body. With most standard mounts you'll probably have to dig through the paper with the model #. Once the top is off, the epoxy has to be gently pushed down the threaded insert into the cart. I suggest tilting the cart back so it's almost sitting on the pins. You can't get any epoxy near the suspension (plug). This was pretty easy with the 95 cause the top screw is near the back. You have to be careful of the delicate wires connecting the output pins. It didn't take much epoxy. This necessitates gluing the top on cause the threads fill up with potting, or at least get fouled. I filled the spaces in the orig top with mortite and glued it back on. After it set I glued on the aluminum top piece I made out of an old headshell. If you have a higher quality cart and want a wood top, I suggest removing the orig top and fitting the wood to the body as a replacement. The 95 is the only one I did this to.

In an ultimate sense I think the electrical parameters are the key to TOTL performance. Check inductance and resistance on the most highly regarded models. Impedance is around 5 or 600 ohms and inductance is < 500pF. On the other hand, I don't think the 95 even has OCC coil wire and the potted version sounds very nice. I don't think the alum top is necessary. So satisfaction depends on your goal. If you're looking for the holy grail you might want to look beyond the 95. If you want to be able to play a record and have it sound like a master tape with a little less harmonic detail, you'll like the potted 95.

Anybody know the electrical parameters of the 110E? It has OCC wire! LOL
neo

[dlaloum]

Hmmmm- well, I have a collection of the AT92's - so I will take a look at how they are built...

I don't mind sacrificing at least one to destructive testing...

I don't know about the wood in a p-mount, and I also wonder about the response of potting materials other than Epoxy...
What about an elastomeric material - a Silicone glue?

I also have a spare 105 and a spare 110....

bye for now

David

[glrickaby]

Sil-glyde grease in a tube from NAPA is also an excellent potting material.

[neobop]

I used epoxy because it's traditionally used for potting electronics AFAIK. Check the label on whatever you're considering. Some of the ones I looked at were corrosive to metals, including copper. 5 minute epoxy was easy to use.
What are the specs of the 110E? That one actually might be a better candidate than the 95. LpGear says it now has OCC wire. It looks like it might have the same plug as the 95. I keep thinking that I might not have enough hours on my 95. So many carts, so little time.
neo

[glrickaby]

You might want to take a look at the analog review section at Audiogon under Virtuoso. In his
8-21 thread, Raul seems upset that I pointed out the Virtuoso stylus is replacable, contrary to his review. He also groups me with named others as a DYS (?) and apparently feels I've disturbed the purity of his review which claims the Virtuoso is apparently next to? as the best ever. I've filed a further reply apologizing but pointing out several cartridges which approach the Virtuoso in quality
at a much lessor price.(Hopefully the moderator will publish). Not sure what I stumbled into here
but apparently a DYS is a euphemism for some kind of Rif Raf. The Virtuoso is obviously an
overpriced cartridge, though a good sounding one, considering it is a modified AT which is the point
I was trying to make, along with the fact the stylus can be replaced if broken, without an exchange. Raul says he has an AT95SA but apparently feels the Virtuoso (or any Aurum Beta series for that matter) is not intended to be replaceable as that is what Clearaudio intended....He mentions
several other names of which you may be one....guess I didn't realize the implications of what
I did. Strangely, the threads go on as if no one cares the Virtuoso is a modifed AT.

[dlaloum]

It's not that no one cares... it is that we accept that a hot-rodded cartridge is no longer the original - and that there is a cost to the hot-rodding process...

If I spend a day on a job -  expect to be paid accordingly.... working out the labour costs of doing these cartridges, for a skilled craftsmen at German labour rates..... the cost is not all that unreasonable.

But for those interested in DIY CA have shown us what can be done, and how it can be done...

It is not yet clear exactly what the CA body is though.... Would be nice if someone could measure and compare impedance and resistance for these - then we would pin down what body it is (and whether it is a standard or custom body!)

bye for now

David

[glrickaby]

Believe Neo did measure the CA at another site and another post. Perhaps
he remembers? Don't recall that the electrical difference was significant
but of course one does not know about the quality of the copper etc.,

[dlaloum]

He measured resistance - I have measurements of resistance for the AT95 and AT110...

But we don't have measures for impedance @1kHz....

[neobop]

David,
The CAs are all 660 ohms impedance, 420mH. I measured 408 & 409 ohms resistance. The plug is a 3400 (95) series but the body is different. The resistance being within 1 ohm/ch would indicate careful matching.

I think this is a custom made high end cart and CA chose the 95 plug for obvious reasons. How many people are going to do transplants? I think these were released before the Jico 95 replacements were available. I'm not sure. I think all the current top ATs have high impedance and higher inductance. The Virtuoso doesn't seem to have that aggressive high end like the 150 or 440. The balance is more neutral like my 15/20SS or even the 95. The ML stylus seems to have a tendency for brightness. The Maestro apparently has a boron stylus and micro tip. The more extensive use of wood is probably to tame the top. The boron also is more controlled. If you look on CAs web site, you'll see the specs. You can probably get an Concept or Classic, put in your stylus of choice, and have a $1K cart. They might not be as well matched. BTW, the 7V stylus is very close to the orig Virtuoso. It's a .2 x .7 nude sq shank on tapered alum. The cu is 7 @ 100Hz.
neo

http://www.clearaudio.de/_en/Tonabnehmer.php

[dlaloum]

It seems to me that the difference between the more neutral AT15/20 and brighter AT440 presentation is in the stylus and not the body.... cantilever resonance...

The thing that I want to know is what is the mechanics behind the difference in impedance/resistance ratio ...

[neobop]

The 440 has 3.2K impedance. The inductance is 570mH? The 440 and the 120 share the same body. The 120 has a nude .3 x .7 on a straight alum cantilever. It's still somewhat bright. I think the generator has a tendency toward brightness. You're right about the combo of stylus and body. I had a beryllium ML on a 440 and it was only a tiny bit bright. Something like 42K would have been perfect.

I don't think you can discount the impedance/inductance. Look at those specs on the 20SS. They're in the same ballpark. I never heard my 15/20 with an alum cant. I bet it would sound similar, with a little damping.
neo

[dlaloum]

I have the AT20SLa with the ATN15ss fitted.... I also have an ATN14 I could try on it....

[neobop]

You might want to take a look at the analog review section at Audiogon under Virtuoso. In his
8-21 thread, Raul seems upset that I pointed out the Virtuoso stylus is replacable, contrary to his review. He also groups me with named others as a DYS (?) and apparently feels I've disturbed the purity of his review which claims the Virtuoso is apparently next to? as the best ever. I've filed a further reply apologizing but pointing out several cartridges which approach the Virtuoso in quality
at a much lessor price.(Hopefully the moderator will publish). Not sure what I stumbled into here
but apparently a DYS is a euphemism for some kind of Rif Raf. The Virtuoso is obviously an
overpriced cartridge, though a good sounding one, considering it is a modified AT which is the point
I was trying to make, along with the fact the stylus can be replaced if broken, without an exchange. Raul says he has an AT95SA but apparently feels the Virtuoso (or any Aurum Beta series for that matter) is not intended to be replaceable as that is what Clearaudio intended....He mentions
several other names of which you may be one....guess I didn't realize the implications of what
I did. Strangely, the threads go on as if no one cares the Virtuoso is a modifed AT.

Hi GL,
My internet was out for a couple of days and I didn't see your post. I also didn't see your exchange with Raul on the review. Last I read, the Virtuoso was crowned king. I wouldn't worry about it. Although Raul has an extensive knowledge of carts, YMMV applies to everyone. He loads all MMs at 100K. This mystifies me, but I chalk it up to preamp/system differences. In the final analysis we get similar results with most of the carts he talks about, which I'm familiar with. The CA carts are not modified ATs. They are custom made by AT and are unique. This might seem like a technicality but there is no AT that is the same as the CAs. Although David might disagree, I'm convinced that the generator makes a significant difference. If not, then why doesn't a 150MLX sound like a Maestro w/o the wood?

Just because we transplant styli and use the Jico 95 replacements after wing removal, doesn't mean it's really a user replaceable stylus. I don't abide by CAs policy and greed, but Raul was reviewing the cart and maybe your comments should have been on the thread rather than the review. CAs prices have always been high. On the other hand a 2M Black is $670 and the Garrott MMs are $1200 and 1400? They don't make those less expensive MMs any more.
http://www.garrottbrothers.com/opt.html

You might feel that there are other MMs that are just as good or better. I'm not arguing with you. I just want to set the record straight.
neo

[glrickaby]

Neo- I can understand the CA being custom made by AT but wouldn't this show a difference in the
electrical measurements? Also the case itself seems AT "common", whereas AT has much fancier
cases on the AT7V for instance and the 150MLX. According to Raul's equipment list, he has some
pretty powerful stuff including about every cartridge ever made  and TT's that cost more than
most can pay, yet he says unqualifyably the Virtuoso is the best cartridge he has ever listened
too? Even with my butchering, I've never heard that potential, though my equipment would
never approach his in quality. The maestro, next model up, has apparently a Boron-vital type
of stylus.  Why would AT custom make a unit for CA that exceeds anything in their own line
up? I have an AT7V and it does sound better on my equipment as does my Precept and 13EA...
I accept your explanation but am still puzzled?

[neobop]

Neo- I can understand the CA being custom made by AT but wouldn't this show a difference in the
electrical measurements? Also the case itself seems AT "common", whereas AT has much fancier
cases on the AT7V for instance and the 150MLX. According to Raul's equipment list, he has some
pretty powerful stuff including about every cartridge ever made  and TT's that cost more than
most can pay, yet he says unqualifyably the Virtuoso is the best cartridge he has ever listened
too? Even with my butchering, I've never heard that potential, though my equipment would
never approach his in quality. The maestro, next model up, has apparently a Boron-vital type
of stylus.  Why would AT custom make a unit for CA that exceeds anything in their own line
up? I have an AT7V and it does sound better on my equipment as does my Precept and 13EA...
I accept your explanation but am still puzzled?

GL, There is a difference in electrical measurements. The 95 has an impedance of 2.8K vs 660 ohms for the CA. The 95 doesn't have the OCC wire.  There is no AT with the same specs as the CAs. Most of the ATs with the heavy metal case weigh around 8g. CA wanted either wood or more extensive alum top/sides and the result would probably be too heavy with the deluxe case underneath. It doesn't matter. CA probably contracted with AT to make them carts with those specs - low impedance/inductance etc, and finishes the tops themselves. Electrically the results are reminiscent of long discontinued models like the 20SS, even a little better.

So, your results differ from Raul's. Surprise, surprise!! Really GL, since when did everyone get the same results? I must say that my results so far are closer to Raul's, but I'm not prepared to say it's the best ever. You know how that goes. On that score your results aren't the norm. Ever since the CA MMs were released they got glowing reviews and recommendations. I remember reading - no need for MCs any more - about the Virtuoso. Your bafflement comes from the discrepancy with results and to a certain extent mine does too. I don't listen to it at 100K with the tail up in the air. On the other hand I get harmonic detail and a presentation that seems to elude my modified 95. It seems more live and open than my 15/20SS. Who knows, in a few months maybe that Garrott will replace the CA on Raul's list. BTW, Soundsmith has a new top LOMI. It goes for around $4500. It was a tough decision but I'm not going to rob a bank or sell my car to get it. At least not until Raul says it's the best.   
neo