[neobop]

David,
From you're description, I'm not sure what's going on. The round plugs of the 20 series are tricky. The screw head should be recessed from the top of the plug, about 1 or 2mm or so. They are painted over with a black or white lacquer. This has to be scraped off/loosened, so you can turn the screw. It should be obvious, but if it's black paint on there, it might be hard to tell. Is it possible that the screw (called compliance screw) was removed previously? Check it out again with a light and some magnification. It could be that there is no screw.

The older round plugs are harder to work. Modern styli have a brass sleeve around the back of the cantilever - the part that fits into the plug. I don't think the 15SS stylus has the sleeve. I removed one that was worn, just to try it. I probably have the old plastic stylus holder w/plug, somewhere. Send me a PM if you need it. I'll hunt it down. I didn't check if the opening for the cantilever has a different diameter than modern ones. I'll look into that and let you know. If so, the project might not be worthwhile.

$150 for a 15SS stylus seems steep. But if you consider that it's a beryllium cantilever with a nude square shank shibata, it's actually a good deal. Check out the price of a 2M Black stylus on an aluminum cantilever. I know how it is though. I paid around $200 for the 150MLX stylus. I should have tried it on my 440 first. Maybe it was paying learning dues.

I forgot to mention that the 7V stylus didn't track right on my 440 body. I got sound, but it kept repeating. This was with the plastic holder/wings. Either the plug isn't as high or somehow the holder isn't right. I double checked everything. After I transplanted it, there were no problems with it on the 95.
neo

[bastlnut]

hallo Neo,

great idea and shows you to be a true adventurer.
keep it up!

regards,
bas

[neobop]

Bas,
Great to hear from you. Don't be a stranger. We're all looking forward to reading your insights.

Did you ever get that Grado Statement or Statement Master? I guess the top one would be the Statement Statement. Kind of like Catch 22, Major Major. 

neo

[bastlnut]

hallo Neo,

yes i did get one. it is the New Statement....top of the line Grado. 
i still have the Reference Reference.....ok, the Reference as Grado calls it.....
i was going to use it as a trade in, but didn't, so i may have them make it into a mono version for me.
i already have the mono Sonata so there is no hurry.
i am actually using my Transfiguration Aria mostly now for everyday listening.
the Statement is on my Stax UA-90 and i use a couple of 9-10" arms for mono.
i still use a Grace as the main arm in my 3 tonearm setup, but a G960.
this has a removable headshell for Koetsu or Allaerts duty when the Transfig is not used.
yes, a three tonearm Beast!

was that inappropriate on an AT 95 thread?.....sorry.....not 
love the idea and you seem to be enjoying messing with the big boys.
i bet it would not be difficult to make a mold for your own carrier plug to mount a cantilever into for Clearaudio stylus replacement.

regards,
bas

[neobop]

Hey Bas,
Would you happen to know what thread Clearaudio uses for their cart mounting screws? I think it must be 2.6mm, cause nothing I have seems to thread properly. I bought it used and only got the nylon screws, which I destroyed when removing the cart.

An Aria for everyday listening must be nice. I thought you had a Grace 940.
I'm using my Genesis 1000 much of the time now. I never heard an Allaerts. I think you have a sweet tooth.
neo

[bastlnut]

hallo Neo,

i take turntables and tonearms apart. make em better that new.
but i have not gotten to cartridges yet. don't even have a Clearaudio here to take apart.
i bet they use standard 2,5mm screws. i know, metric is a problem for youz in the US,
but the rest of the world gets ticked off at the bloody inch hardware that we have to put up with.   

i do have a Grace G940, actually 3 of them. simply, i can use 12" tonearms (2) so i do. have 2 of those G960s. 
really like the Stax too with its carbon fibre armwand for high compliance cartridges.
i do love my cartridge sweeties.

regards,
bas

[neobop]

I think the Clearaudio screws are an odd size, like 2.6mm. I have plenty of misc cart screws and 2.5 seems to thread about a mm or two and then get stuck. Metric is actually easier to work with. Many of us are used to measuring arm mounting and such in mm. We translate to inches to get a better conception of actual size.

I take back anything negative I ever said about NeedleDr. I called them to ask about the screws and they're sending me a set from a busted cart - N/C. I buy record sleeves and RCM fluid there so I'm a previous customer.

David,
The AT15/20 stylus holder will accept any AT cantilever. The offer stands, if you need it.
neo

[bastlnut]

I think the Clearaudio screws are an odd size, like 2.6mm. I have plenty of misc cart screws and 2.5 seems to thread about a mm or two and then get stuck. .....
neo

hallo,

that is because of the threads, not the size of the screw.
some threads are larger than others, so you will need to try different ones to see if the threads are the same.

regards,
bas

[dlaloum]

David,
The AT15/20 stylus holder will accept any AT cantilever. The offer stands, if you need it.
neo

Hi Neo

that would be great actually - I think my one may be missing the screw... and I have no other obvious examples to work with.

I am currently debating between ordering an ATN13 needle so I can try out the AT20 and TK7su I have and decide whether I want to spend more on them, or whether I just bite the bullet and get an ATN20ss/ATN15ss ... or maybe get the Jico ATN20 equivalent?

I've been vacillating on this for some weeks now!

Still have concerns about compliance/tonearm - both the 15 and 20 are too high compliance for the tonearm theoretically speaking.... but concensus out there seems to be that the high compliance designs give the "silkiest" HF... and the lower compliance designs give more punch but a grainier HF detail....

Bye for now

David

P.S. apologies for not responding earlier - Audiocircle stopped sending me reply notifications for some unknown reason....

[neobop]

David,
No Problemo. Just send me a PM with your mailing address. Good thing you live really far away. They'll put it on a jet plane and you'll probably have it sooner than if you lived in New Jersey.

You might want to consider the ATN7V. I just got one for my AT-95. It seems to be working out nicely. It's a .2 x .7 nude sq shank on a tapered aluminum.  Cu is 7 @100Hz. It seems to outperform the Jico shibata, at least to my ears. The shibata might be a little sweeter but the 7V is cleaner, faster and more detailed. The high end sounds more extended, although I don't know if it really is. It might not be the ultimate, but for $79 the cu is right and it sounds damn good on the 95.
I'll see if I still have that old 15SS stylus that went with the plastic holder. I think it still has a little life left. That's why I was messing with it in the first place. If I can find it you should be able to get an idea about its suitability. I still have an unopened ATN20SS, so I really don't need it.
neo

[glrickaby]

Hi Neo- It's me-GL. See your ATN7V. Just picked up an AT7V complete unit
with very low hours on Agon and find it has a very sweet sound on my
Rega 3/2000. Don't know why you would transplant the stylus though, as
the body is probably higher quality than the AT95E body-gold and all...
Apparently the A120-440ML will also fit this body, so logically, it could
transplant to a Clearaudio Virtuoso etc., Apparently new ones at LPGear
at a knockdown price...

[dlaloum]

I made a decision a while back to focus on Line Contact styli rather than elipticals....

So the AT7V fell off my list.

I don't fully stick to that - 2 of my MC's are elipticals, and some of my MM styli.

[glrickaby]

I think a .002 by elliptical can actually produce a sweeter sound than an LC.
Some LC's sound "astringent" to me; i.e. detailed but not full. In any case,
the AT7V is apparently a Japan market unit which is an astounding value
at LPGear and a tapered .002 by is certainly not junk. The cartridge body
has a very high class finish. This cartridge does not exhibit some of the
shrillness that some Audiophiles claim is pervasive with the AT line. It
really is sweet and mellow.

[neobop]

Hi GL,
I got the stylus because of the value, compliance, and I thought the sound of a .2 x .7 would be better with these carts. I still have the Virtuoso, so I can I can certainly try it on there. I agree about line contacts. Sometimes they're great but it depends on the cart. I didn't buy the whole cart cause I really don't need another generator to break in. Do you have the inductance and impedance of the 7V? I was told that it's in the 500mH + range. Maybe that was the original Signet TK-7Ea. Everybody seems to love that cart, especially with med/heavy arms.

Funny, I just played a Japanese pressing of Stan Getz, Oscar Peterson trio. It has Ray Brown and Herb Ellis. This is with the 95/7V on my heavyweight Sony with a 7g headshell. Maybe I got some extra bass cause it's mono record, but boy did it sound natural and sweet.

Seems to me that there are some cantilever/stylus combos that usually work out better than others. This is irrespective of the body. I have the feeling that a micro line is better on an exotic cantilever. AT seems to be getting away from MLs on aluminum too. Maybe it's a cost thing, but somehow I doubt it. They seem to be voicing them differently. They don't make line contact any more. On the other hand, I think putting an elliptical on my M20FL Super would be a downgrade. The fine line sounds great on there.

David,
I sent you the old 15SS stylus holder. I found a stylus I think goes with it. You'll have to check it. It probably needs aligning. I only have 30x - It's a nude square shank and it looks like a beryllium cantilever, so I think that's it. LOL
neo

[glrickaby]

AT7V specs are: 15-25,000 Hz,5.0mV output,1.75 to 2.25 Tracking,47K Load impedance, 27db channel separation,Channel Balance 1.5db,Dynamic compliance 7.0 x 10-6 cm/dyne,vertical tracking angle 23 deg,Static compliance 35 x 10-6 cm/dyne,size H17.3 x W15.2 x D26.5 mm. Wt 6.2 gm. Instructions are in Japanese. Got these from an ebay listing. Also believe the diamond is a nude square shank. Made with 99.997 copper by Ohno Continuous Casting process.- Some of the Japanese has english numbers- Looks like inductance is 650(symbol is a half circle ear phone type) and resistance is 100-200pF? Stylus is ATN-7V and Cost 7500 yen. Anything made with 9's copper is high class. Neo- I believe, with respect to the AT95, that this AT7V is superior quality,a japanese market product, not intended for export. How LPGear got them, I don't know. When you're nude, square shank diamond with a .002 x elliptical, I'll take that over a ML or LC anyday, most of which are bonded. Exception: on a high class TT like the VPI type with perfect set up. Incidently, I transplanted a conical 560371-2 generic stylus to my AT120 via loosening the screw method. Mounted on an AT125LC, sounds excellent. Don't know if the body makes the stylus sound better or hat?....Not sure I understand the difference between impedance and inductance, particularly in Japanese but you can reverse the numbers if I have them backwards. Apparently, resistance has to do with the wires to the  preamp and 100-200 is apparently a common range. You know,if AT put 9s wire in the Virtuoso......

[dlaloum]

I think a .002 by elliptical can actually produce a sweeter sound than an LC.
Some LC's sound "astringent" to me; i.e. detailed but not full. In any case,
the AT7V is apparently a Japan market unit which is an astounding value
at LPGear and a tapered .002 by is certainly not junk. The cartridge body
has a very high class finish. This cartridge does not exhibit some of the
shrillness that some Audiophiles claim is pervasive with the AT line. It
really is sweet and mellow.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying eliptical is junk...

It's just that the contact patch is more limited (although with a 0.2mil it is as fine a radius as any but the very best LC's)...

But you are only reading a limited vertical area of the groove wall - and if (as is the case with me) much of the vinyl is old and worn - then reading beyond the eliptical/conical vertical area is of great importance.

My Sony XL-MC104p is probably my sweetest cartridge (from my last round of critical listening and comparison) - and it is a "super eliptical"

In terms of pure sound quality - assuming good vinyl - an eliptical can match most LC's - in fact it will come down to cantilever quality. (assuming all else is equal, and properly set up)

I think cantilever quality, total effective tip mass, and cantilever resonant frequency define the sound of a cartridge far more so than anything else....

My choice to focus on LC is primarily based on the type of vinyl I have and plan on having....

bye for now

David

[dlaloum]

Seems to me that there are some cantilever/stylus combos that usually work out better than others. This is irrespective of the body. I have the feeling that a micro line is better on an exotic cantilever. AT seems to be getting away from MLs on aluminum too. Maybe it's a cost thing, but somehow I doubt it. They seem to be voicing them differently. They don't make line contact any more. On the other hand, I think putting an elliptical on my M20FL Super would be a downgrade. The fine line sounds great on there.

David,
I sent you the old 15SS stylus holder. I found a stylus I think goes with it. You'll have to check it. It probably needs aligning. I only have 30x - It's a nude square shank and it looks like a beryllium cantilever, so I think that's it. LOL
neo

I think that you are primarily talking about voicing of the stylus (primarily resonance, and damping which impacts on that resonance)

I am testing an ATN12S stylus tonight for its cantilever resonance.... if it comes up where I want it, then there will be the possibility of creating an ATN1512S. Which would be nice as the ATN12S is readily available at a good price... - but everything hinges on that resonance .... ie: the voicing

I now have the ATN440MLa mapped out - and tonight I am mapping out the ATN12Sa and the Ortofon Digitrac 300SE - If I have the time and patience maybe even the VMS30mkII

Bye for now (and thanks)

David

[neobop]

I think that you are primarily talking about voicing of the stylus (primarily resonance, and damping which impacts on that resonance)

I am testing an ATN12S stylus tonight for its cantilever resonance.... if it comes up where I want it, then there will be the possibility of creating an ATN1512S. Which would be nice as the ATN12S is readily available at a good price... - but everything hinges on that resonance .... ie: the voicing

I now have the ATN440MLa mapped out - and tonight I am mapping out the ATN12Sa and the Ortofon Digitrac 300SE - If I have the time and patience maybe even the VMS30mkII

Better stay away from designating cart-tip combos that way. With AT you're likely to be talking about another model entirely, and not realize it. ATN designates a stylus. So you're going to try an AT-15/ATN12S? I thought you had an AT-20 body. Maybe you mean transplanting a ATN12S into the 15SS plastic? See what I mean?

I think voicing is using every parameter to get a desired performance, at a particular price point. The 7V is a Japanese model. It's $189 from Japanese on-line retailers. LpGear imports them. They also import some other models - ATs and the Deft carts made by Jico. The Deft is a pretty nice cart for little money. Jico makes an SAS stylus for it, but will only sell it in Japan. That's why I didn't consider it. The Japanese practice of domestic only models, puts me off, although in the US, they're all discounted and our prices are are less, depending on where you buy.
neo

[dlaloum]

Heh... let me be more specific.... the AT15 & AT20 styli appear to be identical with the possible exception of compliance....

I have a really good AT20SLa body (almost perfect match on inductance and resistance....)

So I am looking at the possibility of taking an AT12Sa stylus (ATN12S) - which is one of the nicer economy shibata's around - with a tapered cantilever

And fitting it into the ATN15SS stylus plastic housing (ie the plastic housing for the stylus for an AT15ss cartridge) - which you are sending me.

The ATN15ss housing being a perfect fit for an AT20...

In any case - along the way I will learn a bit about how these styli are put together.

I did complete a characterisation of the AT12Sa tonight - and it is quite similar (not identical) to the ATN440MLa - so there is a definite "house profile".

Interestingly - putting this into excel and using goal seeking/solver to achieve as small a level variation as possible across various frequency ranges results in 2 optimal solutions for the stylus... one at minimum C (60pf) and another at very high C (550 to 600pf)

I've run the model for AT150ea, AT20SLa and AT12Sa - all using the ATN12S (AT12Sa) stylus resonance profile.

The loadings vary a bit - primarily due to the varying inductances - but the variation is minor - overall the 2 solutions still apply - High C or Low C - with appropriate R adjustment.

This is interesting

bye for now

David

[neobop]

I'm dragging up this old thread to post a pic of the AT plugs. There should be renewed interest in transplanting now. The Virtuoso has been crowned king in the ongoing Audiogon MM thread.





Both plugs are CA/95 type. Only a plug from a AT-3400 series or a 95 will fit and have the correct angle to the cantilever. The screwdriver with the white handle is a regular freebie that comes with a cart. You can see that it's a little too big for the compliance screw. The screw head is recessed. About a quarter turn will loosen it enough to remove the old cantilever. It's a good idea to know about how much to tighten it after inserting the new one. You don't tighten down like mounting a cart, but you have to snug it up enough to prevent movement. The tricky part is getting the magnets aligned. You'll probably have to adjust it 3 or more times. It tends to move a little as you tighten the screw. This has to be perfect. You check it by viewing from the front. It's obvious.

Although AT has a reputation for producing overly bright carts, this is by no means true about all ATs. These sound great at 47K. Having the capability of using a stylus from another model allows voicing the cart. Put a 152 or 155LC on a 440 (transplant not required), and it doesn't need loading down.
neo