[neobop]

Halcro,
I've come back to this thread a couple of times recently, and each time I start looking around on Hifishark.  Check out this Kenwood:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201348498398?rmvSB=true
made by Micro Seiki

I'm not sure what I'm doing right now. I feel like I should fix up that old Sota, either with a Teres rim drive or even a motor on a pod with a controller. It's got a nice platter.....

How are you loading the X1 MKII ?
neo

[Halcro]

Hi Neo,
Looks pretty nifty..
Unless you have Auction Sniper....it's hard to win these sorts of auctions when there seems to be plenty of interest?

I'm playing the X1/II at 40K and zero added Cap.
Can you explain why it works with different loading to the Z1? I thought they were similar generators...? but maybe inductance etc are different?
Regards

[neobop]

AU fleabey has some cool stuff.  Look at this Teac:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-TEAC-idler-wheel-transcription-turntable-16-33-45-78RPM-rare/321757108362?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D30987%26meid%3D918010eb4fd44fc2a2f2f86d084374cb%26pid%3D100010%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D11%26sd%3D201348498398

If you enter your max bid - most you're willing to pay, they will keep you as the high bidder in the minimum increment, until/unless you max is exceeded.
I never trusted them though.  What's stopping them from entering a phony bid, knowing your max will automatically be higher?   The user names are all phony, so who's to know if the bidding history is legit?  Do they still get a percentage of the sale?  Then it would be in their interest to do just that. 
Maybe a bidding service(s) doesn't get paid on a percentage of the sale, but they're probably in cahoots with fleabey.  They could augment their small user fee with a small piece of fleabey's percentage and dramatically increase income.   

The internet is a slaughterhouse and we're the cattle.  Look at the retailers selling new stuff for list price.  No competition on the retail side is price fixing and high end audio companies are guilty as charged.  They think they shit chocolate drops, but.....
neo

[Halcro]

This is the only Sniper site I use..
http://au.auctionsniper.com
They don't make a bid till 5 seconds before close and they only go 5 cents higher than the high bid (as long as your max. bid is still in the race.)
You get three free auctions to try them out with..
They have no affiliation with EBay or anyone else and are strictly working for you.
I have lost only two auctions out of nearly 30 by using them.
Don't be afraid to make your max. bid reasonably high. It won't get there unless someone values the item highly and that's a good reason to pay the right price.
Regards

[Halcro]

Never seen a TEAC idler like that one Neo....
Some real goodies Downunder...

[neobop]

Cart response is a combination of mechanical response and electrical parameters.  Loading is changing electrical parameters and the type of affectation is different for HO and LO carts.  I know you're primarily interested in HO carts, but first I'd like to clear up a LO misconception.  That is, capacitance loading has no affect on a LOMC.  It does.

One thing that many EE's get wrong, is assumptions about high frequency resonance and the interaction of mechanical and electrical parameters.  An EE over at asylum thought electrical parameters defined high frequency resonance, and the low inductance put it somewhere in the hundreds of thousands of Hz.  We know this is wrong. 
LOMC HFR (high freq res) is completely mechanical.  It is the cantilever resonance and is only extended upward by mechanical damping, which also broadens the area affected and also extends it downwards.
Even though LOMC inductance is typically 20 - 50uH, it will interact with capacitance and create its own RFI.  This was pointed out by Atmosphere over on agon.  Many phono preamps are bandwidth limited and this might not be a problem.  As you load down a LOMC, if you get noise reduction and/or reduction of mid-high glare, then that's what is happening.  In the absence of RFI, LOMC loading has no affect on frequency response.  It's all about stage vs. focus. 

Be back shortly,
neo

[neobop]

"I'm playing the X1/II at 40K and zero added Cap.
Can you explain why it works with different loading to the Z1? I thought they were similar generators...? but maybe inductance etc are different?"

I was looking up our measurements for the JVC carts.  On page 47 David measured around 400mH and 490 ohms (DC) for X1.  I measured around the same for the X1 Griff loaned me, although I didn't find the post.  Conjecture is, the X1 and X1 MKII are the same.  The stylus/cantilever is redesigned and that's all we really know at this point.  The Z1 is said to also use the same generator and I haven't measured the sample I'm playing with now.  I think David has a bunch of Z1's and said they're the same. 

To paraphrase CarlosFM (VE cart loading thread), mechanical response is the overwhelming determinate of MM response.  Unless or until we know otherwise, we have to assume the difference is the stylus/cantilever.  In a sense it doesn't matter.  You hear the difference and load appropriately.  Without test record and gear, the why of it takes some conjecture.   You're loading down the X1/II because it's a little bright or forward where the Z1/SAS was a little bass heavy so up it goes.  It's the capacitance part that takes some conjecture.   In general, adding capacitance lowers high frequency resonance and rolls off the extreme high end.  Adding a "normal" amount of capacitance will often reinforce mid-treble response by augmenting it with the lowered resonance.  This works great with many carts and treble droop, which is common - a natural mechanical response.  But, there's also a 180° phase shift at HFR so you have to do it right.  This phase shift tends to cancel response.  When combined with the high frequency roll off it drops like a rock.  It's this aspect David was working with on the V15/SAS.  It took 700pF @ 27K to tame it. 

Unless you have an inductance/capacitance meter or a multimeter with inductance, you can only measure DC resistance.  To do that you need a DIGITAL METER ONLY.  Put the test leads on the +/- of each channel just long enough to get a stable reading.  The cart can't be connected to anything else at the time.
neo

[neobop]

Quiet around here lately.

Want to mention, that VE thread is quite interesting.  It's called Cartridge Loading Explained.  CarlosFM is an EE, as is another poster Werner, who wrote the TNT article Load the Magnets.  Luckydog was active in that thread, although I think he's identified as Ld or guest.  All my posts have been deleted by the management, but you're not missing much. 
VE is like the ancient Egyptians in that respect, their history is edited.  No matter, it's worth reading.

Taking my usual stroll around Agon and Audio Mart, I ran across this:
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649194952-different-mm-cartridges-for-sale/

Nothing earth shaking, but a couple of interesting items including EPC w/original Technics stylus and AT23.  I don't know all the cross fitments of the Technics MM's, but if they're boron tubes.....   The AT23 is one of those low inductance models David mentioned.  I think the 23 is one that plugs into an S arm like a standard headshell would.   There's also a Victor Z1-S for $50 Canadian. 
neo

[Halcro]

Thanks for the explanation of loading Neo....
Seems to make sense....
Just picked up a Victor Z-1s with stylus guard on HiFiDo for approx. $25.00..
Will see whether it's worth buying a SAS transplant for it as a gift for a friend....but the stylus guard is worth the $25 alone as my working Z1/SAS came without....

[griffithds]

I like how you think Halcro.   I just don't understand how all these stylus guards just disappear!  I have in the past, bought 'junk' cartridges just to get the stylus guard. 

[Halcro]

The $25 stylus guard together with the 'free' Z-1s cartridge arrived...


and I attached it to the DV-507MkII arm to hear it.
Whilst it had the distinctive punchy Victor signature sound...it lacked the finesse and detail of both the Z-1/SAS and X-1/IIE as was to be expected...
I tried to remove the stylus but there must be a tradition in Japan of gluing these in.... ...so I carefully used a tool to remove it as I remembered I had the original Shibata on beryllium stylus assembly from my first Z-1 purchase...


It slid in easily including the tension wire and I once again loaded it onto the Dyna arm and ensured that it indeed played....


I will report after due evaluation time has passed....
At this stage....these have all been fortuitous and timely purchases...

[neobop]

Halcro,
Great photos as usual. 
For future reference, sometimes the close contact of metals, even dissimilar ones, will cause them to form a bond over time.  If the plastic is actually glued to the body, superglue seems to be preferred.   Acetone (contained in nail polish remover) will break the superglue bond and shouldn't hurt hard plastic.
These plastic stylus holders seem to be made from somewhat different formulations and you could test it first to be sure.

I got an Achromat - 3mm, as discussed on Agon.   For those unfamiliar with Halcro's Direct Drive - Are We living Dangerously? thread, my plan is to use approx. 2mm of lead underneath.  The 5mm mat is said to be much better, but the addition of lead would make it 7mm, a bit thick. 

Initial inspection was surprising.  The mat seems to be made of some kind of fiberboard, sort of like fine cardboard.    It's very light weight. I'll weigh it before and after the application of lead.  It is well finished with what seems like a slightly deeper than usual depression for the record label.  I couldn't help but think, over $100 for a piece of fiberboard?  I could have had a couple of those $50 records.  There's no fool like an audiofool. Imagine paying $50 for a record and it isn't even direct to disc!!

I hope you find the above description amusing because Achromat seems to be a serious contender.  This lightweight punches like Cassius Clay vs. Sonny Liston.  I just got it yesterday and I plan to try it out awhile before the lead, but my initial impression is very positive. 
To be continued.....
neo

[neobop]

Some kids always want to stay up past bedtime, even when they're tired and the next day is school.  They must finish the chapter or watch that show and not to, would be the height of frustration in a boring existence.   Even when older, I didn't want to miss anything.  Going to bed is like dying - another day done and gone, never to be relived.

That's how it is for me with the Z1/SAS.  I keep devising tests and comparisons even though I really have a handle on the differences at least in a general way, although it's the specifics which are fascinating.  I'm in the other room where I have a wall bracket.  That facilitates arm adjustments as the table is higher.  I don't have to get on my knees as with the converted end tables.  I'm using the Alphason which seems to suit the JVC better, even though the SAS must be higher compliance than stock?  This comparison is with the 440, first with an ATN140LC, then a MR5.0ML stylus.  Switching carts on this set-up is time consuming and then the mat showed up, but I didn't need to start over. 

There seemed to be a significant difference with the JVC/SAS in reducing VTF from 1.4g to 1.3 or approx. 1.325g.  The stage opened and it got faster and more dynamic.  At 1.25g tracing seemed iffy, and a less than perfect record, warped or wrinkled,  would be more prone to mistracking.   That coincides with results on the Unitrac and seems more critical than most. 
Unlike Halcro, I found the best arm height within the usual range of  near level to tail up slightly.  Maybe it's the micro stylus on a boron cantilever, but there seem to be ranges (I call nodes) of tail up settings which can sound excellent on specific records or group of similar pressings.  This seems more common with the Genesis than an AT-boron/ML, which brings up another point.  I realized I had been mentally comparing the sound to my favorite, the Genesis 1000 LOMC, not other MM's.  The Genesis is a seriously underrated  cart.  This is a cart that made Raul say WOW.  IMO it's significantly better than the Sigma 2000 and carts like the 17D3, Koetsu Black/Goldline, Kisiki Blue, Ortofon MC10/20, etc.   That list includes ZYX under $4K, although my listening to these hasn't been extensive, I can tell.   I haven't heard the Universe, but I suspect the cantilever is too short to compete in my ballpark, with my preferences. 
When you get to the Rosewood Signature or some VDH you might prefer another flavor, but that's a matter of taste or synergy which is no small matter.

The "error" of the JVC is mostly one of proportion.  Those extra dynamics in the midrange can also put the background or quiet passages too far back.  This is not always noticeable, and specific to the recording, but this "error" is what gives the cart its unique presentation.  Quite frankly, it's a lot of fun even if not appropriate for every record.  For detail it's top notch with excellent transient response and high frequency resolution.  As reported before, some tonality which impacts harmonic intricacies is a little less than perfect, but not far off. 

Where does this leave us?  Not quite sure.  I definitely prefer Genesis, but when I substituted Z1 for 140LC, the Z1 seemed significantly better.  I'm almost through with these comparisons and I'm still on the fence about buying one.  I just got an AT mono cart and haven't even tried it.  The Achromat needs lead, tables need caps .....   I'll let you know.
neo   

[Halcro]

I'm almost through with these comparisons and I'm still on the fence about buying one.

Well unlike Neo, there's no fence in sight for my rear end....
In fact I must admit to a major embarrassment...
After 5-6 years of buying, testing and selling over 50 cartridges....I have finally settled on my 'perfect' mix for the Raven AC-2


The Fidelity Research FR-7f/Lc is on one FR-66s arm with the AT33Mono on the other one and the Signet TK-7LCa on the Copperhead.
The first being the most lyrical and expansive LOMC I have yet heard whilst the Signet is truly hard to fault.

On the Victor TT-101 however...


despite trying dozens of my other 'keepers'....I can do no better than the Victor Z1/SAS on the FR-64s, the Victor X1/IIE on the SAEC WE-8000/ST and the Victor Z-1s with original Shibata stylus and beryllium cantilever on the DV507/II....

Call me boring or call me stupid but as the Ad for Mortein goes......"when you're on a good thing, stick to it"...

[neobop]

Well unlike Neo, there's no fence in sight for my rear end....

Hi Halcro,
Shouldn't that read front end?   

In fact I must admit to a major embarrassment...
After 5-6 years of buying, testing and selling over 50 cartridges....

Major embarrassment?  What's there to be embarrassed about, that it only took 6 years and 50 carts?   Are you in your twenties?  If so, I really am envious!

What's Mortein, just an ad with an appropriate tag line?

I think you're smitten and madly in love.  Ain't love grand?   In this case love is cheap, considering what you paid for those JVC carts.   
There's no arguing with results.  These Victors are seductive and even though I haven't heard every variation, I get the idea. 
My problem is more like long term planning and priorities.  If this was a couple of years ago I'd buy one or two of these and play around with the styli etc. and I still might get one.   But my goal is to downsize out of necessity, not choice, and like it or not I'll have to deal with it eventually.  I bought the mono cart because I didn't have one and I have mono records. 

So rock on my friend.  It's great to read about your latest flame.  It looks like your candle is burning from three ends (?)  You know how it goes.
Regards, 

[Halcro]

Hi Neo,
Mortein..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEsRKCemF4U

I think you're smitten and madly in love.  Ain't love grand?   In this case love is cheap, considering what you paid for those JVC carts.   

You're right....love IS grand... My admiration for Victor as a company keeps growing the more of its products I use....perhaps I should try one of their arms....
No no....my arm collection I think is complete....

What's happening with your turntable and arm decisions...
Regards

[neobop]

Table & arm decisions are complicated.  It seems like Teres Audio is completely out of business.  I thought they were still selling motors/controllers.  It's on their site but the contact email doesn't work.  I guess I could get a belt drive motor and put it on a pod, but it's not what I want.  Origin Live makes an overpriced DC motor/controller set-up as an "upgrade" for belt drivers??   I have a new metal subchassis figured out for the Sota.  It wouldn't be hard to implement, but w/o a motor.....   That Sota is a teaser.  It looks so pretty but is a lousy design, like a sexy hooker who gives you the clap. 

I'd rather not discuss what I'm looking for on the used market, not until after I acquire it.   

Insecticide?  Not sure how I should take that.  I'm not crazy about the yellow guy playing the violin either.  There's some other minor developments - maybe after breakfast.
neo
 

[Halcro]

Have you thought of the VPI HRX motor and flywheel (which can be purchased separately)?
http://www.vpiindustries.com/table-hrx.htm
I have a friend in Bavaria who has used this motor to drive a Micro Seiki RX-5000 turntable....

[neobop]

VPI rim drive on a Seiki 5000?  Seems odd, did the 5000 motor quit?  I assume your friend likes the new set-up?,
I haven't used these rim drives, but I've read that Teres is better.  Maybe with a speed controller the VPI is as good?  There's an AC motor controller called Falcon (I think) that's supposed to be better than SDS.  I'm sure the HRX motor pod/flywheel won't fit in the Sota space unless I abandon the wood sides and dust cover.  Maybe it's destined to be a hot rod, but my plan was to have the sides and dust cover lift straight off for use and just reinsert in 3 holes in the chassis to button up.  I called my friendly VPI dealer last week, but I didn't get him.  Maybe I should get a 300 RPM motor and controller and sell it.  I'm tired of thinking about it.

On another front, I made a mistake trying the Achromat in the middle of a comparison.  Without going into all the gory details I now suspect the 3mm version has serious deficiencies when used on a 1.5Kg DD platter.   I think the lead sub-mat will change that.  Maybe the 5mm version is better by itself.
neo

[Halcro]

Not rim drive....a belt.
See Link..and it has the SDS speed controller built in.
Yes...my friend prefers it to the Micro motor. So much so that he designed his own deck using another HRX motor....

The Achromat I agree has deficiencies.....and they are instantly audible compared to my references.