Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond

neobop · « **Reply #640 on:** 26 Jun 2014, 01:44 pm »

The highest compliance cart I own is 20cu, the 980LZ and I've never even tried it on high mass arm. I guess I could attach the brush and try it with and without, but I went through that years ago when I used to set-up tables and I don't bother. My Unitrac has eff mass of 7g and my modified Sonus is about 5.3g. All the MM/MI sound better on one of those, without exception. Maybe if I had a high mass arm with exceptionally low bearing friction results would be different, but why burden the cart with having to drag around excessive mass when I have something more appropriate?

BTW, I bought those arms specifically for this application. Some years ago a guy on fleabey bought a stash of Pritchard's arms. They might have been defective returns, because I've been fixing it ever since I got it, but it's fun, something to do. I rewired it, made a new arm lifter platform (PIA) and now the ground came loose near the DIN connector. I think Ill solder a copper ring inside above the connector and solder the ground wire to that. Soldering to aluminum is another PIA..... I bought the Unitrac on Mosin's (of Saskia fame) recommendation. He gave me a set of rubber retainer rings for the azimuth weights and set-up parameters. He's a really nice guy. Most of the designers I've met are guys you'd want as friends.

It's a contradiction, but any cart needs both infinitely high arm mass and zero arm bearing friction at the same time. The cart mounting platform should ideally be an immovable object to stabilize cantilever movement relative to the body, and lateral movement toward the spindle should be unimpeded. It seems to be that a MC will impart more vibrations into the arm, or the nature of coil movement makes it more susceptible to reflections back into the cart, or both. A MCs forte is detail, stage and nuance and greater mass requirements facilitate exactitude.

A higher cu MM/MI are generally better trackers with a more straightforward presentation. They're less susceptible to reflected vibrations and results seem better using less expensive, yet appropriate equipment. I think the potential of HO carts is every bit as good as MCs. Because of industry trends in the late '70s, HO became passé. The consumer perception (fueled by the press) was that MC's are better. Their requirement for more expensive equipment suited both the manufacturers and moneyed enthusiasts. Preamp makers had little choice but to follow suit. MM inputs became "standardized" at 47K with usually no capacitance loading options. As we know HO carts have greater loading requirements, not less. Consequently perception was HO is entry level and a little more, but.....

That trend in the late '70s, early '80s spelled the end of 50cu carts. Jillions of MCs came in from Japan and Sonus was all but forgotten. The direct drive table suffered a similar fate. When the Japanese stopped making DD motors, that was it. Then the manufacturers and their partners in crime, the press, had to convince the consumer that belts were better, and they were better for the manufacturers. That was all they could make.
neo

neobop · « **Reply #641 on:** 27 Jun 2014, 01:17 pm »

I think modern carts are mostly all mid cu for sales considerations. Really, most didn't expect the vinyl revival, look at Shure. They sent some winding machines to Mexico and dumped the rest of their technology. They were once top of the MM heap. I suspect they do well making microphones and headphones, don't you think they would come out with a V15-VI if they thought it was viable?
Where's the money in the current market, MMs or MCs ? If they reemerged they'd have to compete with AT, Ortofon, Nagaoka, Goldring in a shrunken market. I think the prospect of a decent return on investment for reemerging is just too shaky and they don't know if the revival will last or how it might diminish.

Some of the most cited reasons for people jumping on the CD bandwagon, was the PIA nature of setting up a table, matching carts to arms and preamps. Then you need a special shelf or whatever to play a scratched record. Did you damage your record with a worn needle? What happened to the cantilever, it was there yesterday? People thought they would be able to buy a CD player for a few hundred or a thousand which would sound better, if not now then someday they would have perfect sound forever. Sony and Phillips lied. What are you gonna do, sue them for causing ear bleeds or offending your sensibilities?

Entry level tables are now about as plug-n-play as possible. Most are probably sold on the net and thanks to guys like Fremer and his set-up video and U tube tutorials, new enthusiasts can learn to DIY. They come to us with questions. Most new arms are in the 10 to 14g range and top Jelcos come with fluid damping. Everybody who cares has their fingers crossed hoping for continued revival growth.

A cart mfg. just wants to sell carts that's why they're all med cu. They will work in most applications. The vast majority are between 15 and 22cu and arms are part way between an immovable object and implementation with no friction or moment of inertia.
neo

neobop · « **Reply #642 on:** 30 Jun 2014, 12:20 pm »

Accuphase AC-2 tubular sapphire cantilever:
http://www.accuphase.com/cat/ac-2en.pdf

neo

dlaloum · « **Reply #643 on:** 1 Jul 2014, 12:29 pm »

Interesting - some of the Technics literature does point out that Boron tubes (as implemented by Technics) are superior to the same format & proportions in competing materials including sapphire/Ruby...

The comparison on this chart between Boron and Sapphire seems to me to be weighted in favour of Boron...

Only rigidity is in Sapphire's favour....

Less flex, but higher mass...

If the mass is low enough, then the reduced flex would be an advantage....

neobop · « **Reply #644 on:** 1 Jul 2014, 03:31 pm »

David,
Someone asked me about a replacement stylus for a V15 IV. I assume a Jico SAS is the way to go?

I seem to remember your indicating as much, but I also seem to remember your saying it not quite as good with some models.

neo

dlaloum · « **Reply #645 on:** 2 Jul 2014, 12:15 am »

In my opinion the best alternative is SAS.

But there is someone currently selling Shure Tracer VST styli on ebay, that was the Revox sold version of the V15IV. They are NOS and reasonably priced.

Caveat emptor though, V15IV styli have a poor reputation for surviving the years - perhaps the construction of the central beryllium rod stiffener gives way.... in any case these are NOS.

(I have ordered one)

pumpkinman · « **Reply #646 on:** 2 Jul 2014, 12:45 am »

Quote from: dlaloum on 2 Jul 2014, 12:15 am

In my opinion the best alternative is SAS.

But there is someone currently selling Shure Tracer VST styli on ebay, that was the Revox sold version of the V15IV. They are NOS and reasonably priced.

Caveat emptor though, V15IV styli have a poor reputation for surviving the years - perhaps the construction of the central beryllium rod stiffener gives way.... in any case these are NOS.

(I have ordered one)

Thanks for your input
P-man

neobop · « **Reply #647 on:** 2 Jul 2014, 02:57 pm »

Check out this photo of a EPC-305MC boron tube cantilever. It's the last photo in the row:
http://www.audiounion.jp/ct/detail/used/57667/

Be back when I get a chance,
neo

neobop · « **Reply #648 on:** 3 Jul 2014, 05:09 pm »

That photo of the Technics boron tube cantilever is germane to the discussion on Agon MM/MI thread about exotic tube cantilevers.

Here's some information about the Denon DL-1000A and its cantilever: (activate translator function)
http://www.denon.jp/jp/museum/products/dl1000a.html

According to J. Carr this is probably the lightest moving assembly ever made - 0.077mg. The criticism is the diamond mounting technique is not rigid enough. The bottom wall of the cantilever is removed for tip mounting. Also, output is 0.1mV, so it was difficult to amplify.

It seems obvious from the above photo that Technics kept the cantilever intact, or possibly only drilled through the bottom to mount the tip. The Monster boron tube cantilevers looks different from both of these. It flattens out at the end and angles to be more parallel to the record surface like many aluminum cantilevers and the flat mounting surface appears to be the thickness of 2 tube walls. Of course I never measured it, but this was obviously by design

This whole discussion of tube cantilevers makes me wonder about priorities. I never heard a DL-1000A, but I wonder if detail is compromised by the tip mounting. J. Carr said that if anyone knew of boron tube availability to please let him know. This technology was available 30 yrs. ago, but can't be reproduced today?

neosaurus Rex

neobop · « **Reply #649 on:** 4 Jul 2014, 10:42 am »

Quote from: neobop on 11 Jun 2014, 12:03 am

On page 30 we were talking about voicing, compromise vs. deliberate, possibly both.

This is the link to the 205C forum discussion:
http://www.hifisentralen.no/forumet/vennetra-der-hifimerker/66200-technics-matsushita-electric-trading-co-ltd.html

Post #8 has some interesting info:

As tip mass increases, resonant frequency decreases while amplitude of peak increases. That's why a boron/ML tames a 440. A beryllium/ML tames it a little better IMO. Beryllium is lighter and a little more flexible, so it's slightly warmer or less exacting, also with less tip mass.
neo

I noticed a photo was missing from this post:

neo

neobop · « **Reply #650 on:** 13 Jul 2014, 12:43 am »

Here's a Stereoplay MC survey with 5 MC amplitude plots at the end. They all have that characteristic rising high end.

http://www.fastaudio.com/workspace/uploads/downloads/stp_08_10_sd_tonabnehmer.pdf

neo

dlaloum · « **Reply #651 on:** 13 Jul 2014, 01:32 am »

Yep, and none of those are lower end catridges....

I consider it the mark of success of subjectivity over objectivity...

Fashion also plays a part!

EQ became a dirty word in the days when the circuits were often cheap and nasty (unless one got an upper end unit) - never mind the fact that 95% of recordings use it in mastering....
So most audiophiles today do not even have a treble knob to adjust with!
(I still miss the Quad preamp "Tilt" control... brilliant!)

My (oft stated) opinion is that many people either like the rising top end, or have come to associate it with "audiophile" sound and therefore a good thing..... perhaps a bit like food with too much salt and sugar.... after a while you cannot do without it?

dimkasta · « **Reply #652 on:** 13 Jul 2014, 11:29 am »

Guys I have tried to follow the entire thread but got lost in more than one occasions... I would love to try transplanting an exotic cantilever on my virtuoso (v1 wood), but as you can imaging I am a bit worried I might screw everything up

I am now using a trimmed at95e stylus

Getting the SS ruby upgrade sounds awesome, but I really do not want to wait 2-3 months for something like that...

Anyway, for now I am contemplating the shibata (ATN95SA ) or the vivid line (AT95VL ) upgrades from lpgear. I will probably go for the VL. And once I have a working cartridge I will continue experimenting with other more exotic stuff on my current AT95 plug.

Any other suggestions?

I am using a slightly modified SL1200MK2 and I plan on getting a Jelco 750D for it

Thanks a lot for an awesome thread

dlaloum · « **Reply #653 on:** 13 Jul 2014, 12:36 pm »

We have indeed meandered a long way from the original topic...

The VL and the Shibata have the exact same specs for major and minor radius - either the VL is in fact a Shibata (with LPGears' proprietary name attached) or it may be a very similar cut shape, much like the Audio Technica LC/LP needles which used a modified shibata ...

In any case, I would expect the two to be very very comparable.
The one strange thing about Shibata's is that their contact patch is slightly curved, and not a straight vertical line (later LC designs are all a linear vertical patch).

I believe that the curved patch somewhat softens the imaging, and may also make it easier to align... but I have no confirmation for that theory.

Definitely grab one of those... easy upgrade!

For the harder upgrade you will need to find an Audio Technica needle with one of the exotic cantilevers (boron / Beryllium / Sapphire/Ruby ).

The down side of the exotic cantilevers are that all the AT exotics I can think of off hand are high compliance (or high-ish) - and your arm is best suited to mid-compliance.

The Jelco 750 is also best suited to mid compliance BUT - because of the fluid damping, it will probably cope with it fine. (have you considered fitting the KAB fluid damper rather than replacing the whole arm? - you may well achieve 90%+ of the benefit of the upgrade with that alone).

If you decide to go ahead with the cantilever transfer - there are a few of us here that have done a transfer.... so we can help with some instructions and warnings...

hope that helps

bye for now

David

neobop · « **Reply #654 on:** 13 Jul 2014, 01:30 pm »

Hi Dimkasta and welcome to the monkey house,

Seems like you understand your options. Performing a transplant is a hairy operation. It takes persistence and more than a bit of patience. Exotic cantilevers break easily and it can be expensive, as I can attest. A new ATN150MLX costs nearly $200 (Amazon) and because that stylus sounds so good on a 120/440 or I assume a 100E (same generator specs as a 150) I'm not going to attempt another exotic transplant.

The vivid line seems like a best buy for replacement styli. I think the shibata sounds a tad soft/sweet on the high end, which can be a nice thing depending on preference. With the 1200 arm I think you could use a 3472 series stylus and track at 1.5g or so. These are P-mount styli, the ones with the tall sides. You can cut off the wings and it will fit just like the ATN95E. Compliance seems about the same as a regular 100 series, but you can try a .3 x .7 for around $20 by buying an AT92E(CD) for the stylus.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/664497-REG/Audio_Technica_AT92ECD_AT92ECD_Turntable_Cartridge_for.html

At some place like LPGear you can buy the same series of replacement styli, some original AT, but they're all bonded tips just like the all the 3472 series.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATN3472VL.html

http://www.lpgear.com/product/ATN3472ML.html

I wouldn't recommend any of these P-mount replacements for use on a 750D. Are you planning on using a DL103 ? The 750D is a 20g arm and is more suitable for lower cu carts. I guess it would be good with a stock 95/CA stylus of 15cu, but I think a couple of mods and your 1200 arm will outperform a 750D, depending on cart preference. KAB sells a fluid damper kit for adjustable damping. The big difference is you'd be damping a 12g arm instead of a 20g arm. If you replace the 1200 arm I'd be interested in buying it from you.
neo

dimkasta · « **Reply #655 on:** 13 Jul 2014, 02:00 pm »

Thanks a lot for the quick response guys

About the arm, I also have a Shelter 501MK2 in its box waiting for me to fix my phonoclone... I understand it is a quite different animal though...

The oil damper is something I was considering, I was just postponing it in case I replaced the arm altogether. Adding the 750D as a second arm is a thought too...

About the ATN150MLX in a 100E or a 440MLa do you reckon it performs better than the virtuoso ?

Thanks again

neobop · « **Reply #656 on:** 13 Jul 2014, 07:43 pm »

Dimka,
If you mean is it better than a stock Virtuoso, or one with a 95E stylus, yes it would be better IMO. It will have more detail/resolution and harmonic information, but also more fussy about set-up and loading. I used to load down my 440 to 32K, and with a boron/ML went back to 47K. The 100E (150) has a lower inductance generator which might be slightly more transparent or extended, and also a little touchier.

The Virtuoso has the same or similar generator as the 95. It's very neutral sounding and the wood top seems to go a long way toward vibration control, buts needs a better stylus to compete on that level. If you had a "better" aftermarket stylus like a VL, I think it would be a matter of opinion. The 440/150 would still be more detailed, but the CA might have more of a natural presentation.

With all of these it's important to have < 200pF shunt capacitance, 150pF seems ideal. That's arm wire + cables + preamp.
neo

dimkasta · « **Reply #657 on:** 14 Jul 2014, 08:45 am »

Yeah I need to measure my cabling.
My interconnects are low capacitance. Something like 15pF per foot. But I have no specs for the cardas litz or the plugs/sockets.

I always assumed I am somewhere around 100pF

neobop · « **Reply #658 on:** 14 Jul 2014, 11:19 am »

RE: MC rising high end

Quote from: dlaloum on 13 Jul 2014, 01:32 am

Yep, and none of those are lower end catridges....

I consider it the mark of success of subjectivity over objectivity...

Fashion also plays a part!

EQ became a dirty word in the days when the circuits were often cheap and nasty (unless one got an upper end unit) - never mind the fact that 95% of recordings use it in mastering....
So most audiophiles today do not even have a treble knob to adjust with!
(I still miss the Quad preamp "Tilt" control... brilliant!)

My (oft stated) opinion is that many people either like the rising top end, or have come to associate it with "audiophile" sound and therefore a good thing..... perhaps a bit like food with too much salt and sugar.... after a while you cannot do without it?

If you subscribe to the notion that analog EQ (tone controls) compromise preamp performance, then it seems to me that a phono cart should be accurate.

How is it that an undamped Ortofon MC200: +7dB @ 20K, was considered so bright it was unlistenable, yet Atlas: +6dB @ 20K is the best thing since sliced bread? Perception has changed with an aging audiofool population?

I think J. Carr's design is deliberate and yes, the rising high end emphasizes the overtones which tend to diminish with frequency on a phonograph record. This augmentation combined with 20K high frequency resonance will net a double whammy of forward phase and amplitude response. Carr designed the 3D phono cart. I never heard Atlas, but I can see what it's doing by the response. Phase performance will be more like a MM, extending down to the upper midrange. The phase nonlinearity is +, the image goes forward.

One thing Atlas doesn't do is extend the rising response to +18dB @ 27K. It ends at 20K and that's the difference between way too bright and 3D.

There seems to be two basic schools of MC design, "accurate" and "other". Maybe "forgiving" should be another alternative and you could make a notation on the inner sleeve as to which cart type a particular record should be played.
neoboposaurus

dimkasta · « **Reply #659 on:** 14 Jul 2014, 02:09 pm »

Perhaps that was why Raul liked loading his MMs so high? So that they have that nice bump on the highs ?