[neobop]

Thanks for the info about the Vivid stylus, I found this link about the different stylus shapes:
http://www.sowka.pl/szlif/
Interesting read.

So far, the new stylus is very clear and fast. My set up includes a 3 foot bluejeans cable (12.2 pf/ft) between the Dual and a Nova Phonomena phono preamp set at the lowest capacitance 200 pf. The recommended capacitance is for this cartridge is 100 pf.  Is there an audible difference when running at a higher capacitance?

Recommended capacitance for ATs is 100 to 200pF, so you're not as far off as it may appear.  Blue Jeans really helps in this respect.  Rather ill thought out options in your Phonomena for MM capacitance.  Most all modern MM carts recommend < 300pF total.
Additional capacitance has the affect of lowering the high frequency resonance which reinforces the treble and rolls off the extreme high end.  You have about 37pF additional + internal arm wire, so about 80 or 90pF additional.  You'd probably be able to hear the difference if you reduced it by 100 to 150pF.  Not sure how big a difference.  If you wanted to do this I'd recommend changing the higher preamp setting to 50pF.   The higher setting is useless unless you have a couple of vintage Ortofon carts or if it's recommended for MCs.

You can get silver mica caps at Parts connection or maybe a company like Mouser.  If it's sounding really good you might want to think about it.
neo

[griffithds]

Hi Neobop,

I can not get over just how right this 440MLa stylus/cantilever mounted in the Maestro sounds. Smooth yet dynamic. Clean and extended at both ends for the frequency spectrum. I just can not find anything to criticise.   It has become a cartridge that I am finding very hard to place into a rotational mode but would rather just leave it mounted on the table.  I have other cartridges mounted on several Graham arm wands, but when they are in rotation, after just a few songs I begin to think, I wonder how that song would have sounded  with the 440MLa/ Maestro! I can not put my finger on just what it is exactly other than" it just sounds right"!  Sort of like a 20SS on a low dosage of steroids!
The 440ML I won on eBay should arrive any day now.  I don't want to remove the MLa from its housing plug so I think I will disassemble the Jico Shibata and use its plug instead for the 440ML (stronger magnet),  CA test/audition.  I already have a RA# from Sound Smith to send the 440ML/Maestro to Peter for his Level#3 upgrade using the ML magnet plug.  I hope the ML arrives today. The wait is killing me.
Regards,
Don

[neobop]

Hi Neobop,

I can not get over just how right this 440MLa stylus/cantilever mounted in the Maestro sounds. Smooth yet dynamic. Clean and extended at both ends for the frequency spectrum. I just can not find anything to criticise.   It has become a cartridge that I am finding very hard to place into a rotational mode but would rather just leave it mounted on the table.  I have other cartridges mounted on several Graham arm wands, but when they are in rotation, after just a few songs I begin to think, I wonder how that song would have sounded  with the 440MLa/ Maestro! I can not put my finger on just what it is exactly other than" it just sounds right"!  Sort of like a 20SS on a low dosage of steroids!
The 440ML I won on eBay should arrive any day now.  I don't want to remove the MLa from its housing plug so I think I will disassemble the Jico Shibata and use its plug instead for the 440ML (stronger magnet),  CA test/audition.  I already have a RA# from Sound Smith to send the 440ML/Maestro to Peter for his Level#3 upgrade using the ML magnet plug.  I hope the ML arrives today. The wait is killing me.
Regards,
Don

Hold the phone Darth Griff, we're changing the channel.  Command tells me you're being promoted and your title is now Captain Quirk.  Your mission (if you choose to accept it) is to explore new(?) galaxies and go where no man has gone before.  Ta ta ta te taaa,  tat da daaaa.

440ML magnets on a level 3 - you should have around .4mV more output than V2 Maestro.  Make sure you get the ML stylus assembly back.  There's no need for him to remove it from the plug.  The plug won't fit the CA.  I suggest sending him one of the orig CA plugs w/busted stylus.  Matter of fact, you should ask for everything back.  The old CA magnets could be used on the ML and you'd have a perfectly good MLa.  Get Peter to do that for you if you want.  How's that for conservation of matter?

Good luck on your mission Captain Quirk.  We'll expect your report in about 3 months time.
neo

[griffithds]

Neobop,

Considering I have the original Maestro (not The V2), output should be perhaps even greater than .4mV.
Neobop, do you think it will it be Peters intentions to 1st remove the 440ML stylus/cantilever assembly from the 440ML housing, then remove everything forward of the magnets (the Cantilever/stylus) on the 440ML and replace that portion with his lever 3 cantilever/stylus. That would mean everything from the magnets back (including the section that the compliance screw holds in place), would be original 440ML. If this is how he would perform this rebuild, then he will need to provide a new housing (to fit the CA), weather it has the screw or not to install the new frankenstein into. If he uses one of my old (green one that was painted black) housings, he will have to remove the stupid compression ring (and removing the old back half of the stylus assembly that's inside of the housing), and replace the ring with either a new compression ring or a screw. I have not heard anyone comment on what he uses for his CA  M/M cartridges.  Or will he just remove the "magnets" from the 440ML and install them on the old green housing that was painted black. Then install his lever 3 cantilever/stylus onto the green housing with the stupid compression ring not touched?
Yea, read it all again. Maybe the 2nd time it will make more sense!
I ask this because I was not aware that the magnets could be moved from one assembly to another!
Regards,
Don

[neobop]

Griff,
When people send him a CA with a busted cantilever, what does he use for a plug?  The CA plug has the fitting, so I think we can assume, either he grafts the new cantilever on in front of the magnets or he can open the fitting.   Either way, in order to use the ML magnets he will have to transplant them or transplant the ML cantilever stub into a suitable plug.  I assume the magnets are glued in place in/on that little V shaped structure.  I've never done this so I can't say from experience, but it might be easier than a cantilever transplant, which leaves you in a quandary.  Exactly what do you send him.

If you call you'll eventually get through to someone and maybe you can ask Peter or ask for him to call you back.  Now that you have a RA #, it shouldn't delay the operation and it would be better if you know what to expect.  In the event you can't talk to Peter maybe you should send him everything including an empty plug with a screw and the green one w/black bottom.  You'd have to include a detailed note saying exactly what you want (level 3 w/ML magnets and all the leftovers).  Bet you'll get a call when he opens your box.

The Maestro V2 has .6mV greater output due to stronger magnets.  The ML has 1mV greater output than the MLa.  The CA has less output to start out with, smaller coils - lower inductance.  Maybe the increase will be less than 1mV.  It could be the same as V2.  Perhaps we shouldn't count the chickens just yet, don't even know if it's feasible.
neo

 

 

[griffithds]

Neobop,

I received my 440ML today from the eBay auction.  The stylus does not have the guard so appearance wise, it looks no different than a
" MLa" or for that matter, no different than a "140ML".  I was hoping I would be able to confirm that it is a true ML with the stronger magnets but I have not been able to hear any difference in output.  I'm starting to think this is a "MLa" stylus assembly on a ML body.
I have a lead on a "140ML" (that's 140 not 440), stylus assembly in need of a new cantilever.  It would seem to me that the "140ML" magnets would be the same as the "440ML" magnets.  Can you confirm that this is true? If so, I think I would rather sent it to Peter for our Frankenstein. I know the owner and I am sure it is what it is claimed to be.  An actual "140ML".  Magnet strength is my only concern in using this for our experiment!  My memory tell me that the 140ML had a bonded tip were as the 440ML had the same diamond but was nude.  I can't remember anything pertaining to the magnets or their strengths. All searches lead only to information on the "440MLa" so I hope you can fill me in.

Regards,
Don

[neobop]

Cheese and crackers!  Enough trouble the way it is, but this is like pulling teeth.  I guess you tried to get in touch with the fleabey seller to confirm identity. 

I have a NOS ATN140LC - specs for the generator are identical to the 440ML; 3200 ohms, 490mH, 5mV.  Only thing different is cu = 15 @ 100Hz, so a low mass arm is indicated.  [CA cu = 6.5, 440 cu = 10]  I can't confirm the specs for the 140ML, but it's a pretty safe bet they're the same as a 140LC.  BTW, the 140LC has a nude sq shank tip.  I'd guess the 140ML also.  60X should be enough to confirm that.

It would be nice if you could get in touch with Peter to find out if this is even doable, and if so what the procedure would be.  I'm guessing normal modus operandi  would be to graft a new cantilever in front of the rubber donut and magnets using existing plug. You might have to choose which stylus becomes the stub, orig CA w/magnet transplant, or 140/440 w/higher cu.  Did you call and leave a message?  Once I called on a Saturday and he answered the phone. 
Thinking about this a bit, it might be good to have a 440ML ready to go in a 3400 plug.  That way you'd have more reasonable cu and he can just lop off the cantilever and replace it, if that's the procedure.
neo

PS.  Scuttlebutt has it, if you can pull this off you're in for another promotion.  They're already calling you Major Tom.   

   

[griffithds]

Neobop,

The plan is++++++++Remove Jico Shibata from plug with screw.  Insert 140ML cantilever/stylus into (now empty plug). Install plug into Maestro.  Send to Peter for Level 3 cantilever/stylus replacement.++++++++End of plan.

Now what would you call a 140ML with a Jico Shibata installed?  (grin)  Perhaps an underachiever?

Regards,
Wrong way Goldfarb

[neobop]

Neobop,

The plan is++++++++Remove Jico Shibata from plug with screw.  Insert 140ML cantilever/stylus into (now empty plug). Install plug into Maestro.  Send to Peter for Level 3 cantilever/stylus replacement.++++++++End of plan.

Now what would you call a 140ML with a Jico Shibata installed?  (grin)  Perhaps an underachiever?

Regards,
Wrong way Goldfarb

That should do it.  I was thinking about compliance.  The ruby/OCL will be about the same as a 155LC.  Maybe that could be changed by swapping rubber dampers? 

I was thinking about the price of Jico styli and lack of value.  That bonded shibata on a straight aluminum cantilever is more expensive than a MLa stylus - nude ML on a tapered cantilever.  Guess it's a bargain compared to the price of a CA trade-in.
neo

[griffithds]

Neo,
Quote:
"Guess it's a bargain compared to the price of a CA trade-in."

We are doing this in the name of "science".  (grin)  If I was thinking cost, I would have used the LPGear's VL plug.  I am thinking about buying another one of the VL's just to have a readily available plug for future use.  Still far cheaper than giving a CA cartridge and $600  to a dealer so he can replace the plug/cantilever/stylus with a AT95E assembly!
Neo, I have on order, a AT150MLX stylus (gold coated boron cantilever/ML stylus), replacement bought for the sum of $159. If you add $80 for the LPGear VL plug, then this would give me one hell of a nice addition for a CA cartridge for only $239.  That's less than 1/3 the cost of a CA exchange!
I do have a call into Peter, but I was hoping to get your concurrence (thanks BTW), about the magnet strength with the 140ML first.
 I am going to ask him about compliance. My Graham 2.2 is considered a light medium to medium mass arm.  Your statement about the 140ML being a low mass arm requirement cartridge kind of surprised me.  I thought low mass arm type cartridges usually tracked at 1 gram or less.  Its tracking force is stated at 1.4 grams as ideal. I would think my Graham arm would be perfect for this requirement? Anyway, I will let Peter know what arm I am going to use it with and let him decide if  he needs to adjust anything, compliance wise.

Regards,
Lab technician #2


 

[neobop]

Griff,
I think the ATN150MLX went up to $300.  Are you sure that's new AT?  It should come with an AT cardboard outer box, not a generic plastic box. As long as it's real and not counterfeit - killer deal.

Arm/cart matching is generally considered a function of low frequency resonance determined by test record or estimated with resonance calculator.   Low tracking force usually goes with high cu carts, but other factors like stylus type, tip mass, also effect VTF.
1g VTF?  Maybe, but it depends on the cart.  The Sonus Blue/Gold discussed previously has cu of 50 @ 10Hz!  VTF is 1.0 to 1.5.

I think compatibility depends on the cart and resultant sound. Some carts sound sluggish (to me) with an arm of high mass.  Have you ever used a 155LC stylus on the Graham?  Results should be similar.  The guys on "Who needs a MM" thread all seem to use high mass arms.  I can only call them as I hear them.  I have a modified Sonus arm with eff mass around 5.25 to 5.5g.  All the MM sound better on that arm except the AT95, CA.  There's a 3472 vivid line that will fit the CA.  Cu is a little higher, but the cantilever should be a little lighter (not extreme) and tracks 1.25 to 1.5.  Probably better for a moderate mass arm.  I have a .3 x .7 from a 92E - P-mount and it sounds pretty good.
neo   

[Grbluen]

Neo,
Have you given up your search?
Don

[neobop]

Don Grb,
This thread started around 2 1/2 years ago.  GL first introduced us to CA MM parentage and stylus replacement a short time before that.  Not much more to say on that score, or is there?   Not long ago I added "and beyond" to the title.  That can include just about any cart related discussion and we've strayed from AT on  numerous occasions.

This thread has been dormant for months at a time, and I rescue it from obscurity with some new aspect.  Feel free to talk about carts.  Do you have experience with something other than what's been discussed?  It really doesn't matter what was said x number of pages ago, what's on your mind?

There are all kinds of carts I haven't heard.  I'm all ears.
neo

[Grbluen]

It's all about learning. I'm more interested in your evaluation process. I'd like to know about the cartridges you've evaluated and how you came to the conclusion that they were not worthy. I'm also interested in your current reference. I'm relatively new to the mm world and I have a lot to learn. I know you're interested in the carts inductance, but inductance alone doesn't explain a cart's performance. I'd prefer not to waste my time and money trying to figure out what you already know. I know it's unlikely, but if there was anything I could do to help, I'd surely be open to it.

Sincerely,
Don

[neobop]

It's all about learning. I'm more interested in your evaluation process. I'd like to know about the cartridges you've evaluated and how you came to the conclusion that they were not worthy. I'm also interested in your current reference. I'm relatively new to the mm world and I have a lot to learn. I know you're interested in the carts inductance, but inductance alone doesn't explain a cart's performance. I'd prefer not to waste my time and money trying to figure out what you already know. I know it's unlikely, but if there was anything I could do to help, I'd surely be open to it.
Sincerely,
Don

Don Grb,
I'm not sure where to begin.  Having a background playing, and exposure to live music really helps.  The learning process of playing, forms the basis of evaluation for me.  After all, our stereo systems are a miniaturization of a live musical event, whether that event is a live performance or a studio session.
For example, playing out of tune and learning what it sounds like, and how the harmonics interact is a learning process that not only teaches you how to play in tune, but the abilities and attributes of your playback system to reproduce that aspect of music.

For most of my career in audio my preference was for MC carts and I don't think MM/MI are superior.  By the same token I think some MM/MI carts are capable of equal or even better performance depending on the individual cart.  It seems to me that MC and MM have a basically different presentation and preference depends on taste, and mostly synergy.

Inductance is the Achilles heel of HO carts.  As a property of the output it combines with shunt capacitance and lowers the high frequency resonance.  This (capacitance) can be used to augment drooping treble performance, but will also roll off the extreme high end.  Carts like a 681 or an M97 might sound nice in a particular system, but are incapable of "ultimate" performance.  Perhaps a M97 with SAS overcomes most of this limitation.

MM tend to use more damping to control frequency response.  The consequence of this is worse phase performance and imaging capability.  MMs with extended response are normally low inductance types with extended contact tips.  The most highly sought after MM carts exhibit these traits.

I have to wind this up for now.  Maybe you could start reading this thread.  Glrickaby and Daloum have made major contributions here and I think you might find it interesting.
neo

[Grbluen]

Ok, Neobop. I've had several moving coils, and I find the extreme soundstage to be unnatural.
Thanks for your time.

[neobop]

Ok, Neobop. I've had several moving coils, and I find the extreme soundstage to be unnatural.

I think it's the fault of the recording and not the cart.  The cart can only present what's there as far as separation, location, and other spatial clues.  If another cart isn't as "extreme" in soundstage capabilities that might make sound more natural in that instance, but is it a better, more resolving cart?

There's an old thread here on phase nonlinearities you might find of interest.  The highlight is discussion of an old Ortofon paper from 1982.  In it, they explained the correlation between phase linearity and imaging capability. 
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=92138.0

That's not to say that your preference is wrong, or all MCs are superior in this respect, but they tend to be.  The best MM (IMO) have extended response, even to 40 or 50K and low inductance means the high freq resonance won't be lowered much.  Bottom line is, it's damping of cantilever movements that causes phase nonlinearities and MM tend to be more heavily damped.  Phase anomalies start at high freq resonance where there's a 180 degree reversal, so you can see the importance of extended response. 

I like the presentation of a good MM.  It seems more immediate. 
I had to run out this morning so I wound up my post.  Please feel free to ask or comment about anything.
neo   

[griffithds]

Neobop,

That $169 AT150MLX stylus replacement came in a blue sealed Audio Technica box. This is no fake!  Hell of a deal when you compare what a retipper would charge for this stylus.
I'm working up the courage to transplant into the Maestro!

Regards,
Don

[dlaloum]

Ok, Neobop. I've had several moving coils, and I find the extreme soundstage to be unnatural.
Thanks for your time.

Have you checked what the Frequency-Amplitude response of those cartridges is?

I ask because many MC's have a rising top end - which lends itself to an extreme soundstage...

The rise is often beyond the brightness frequencies (lower high end) so they don't necessarily sound too bright.

On MM's this top end is often tamed by the higher inductance of the cartridge.... on MC's it can only be tamed by using a much more sophisticated cantilever construction (eg: special materials, very short cantilever) - to move the resonance that causes the rise out of harms way.... which requires the cantilever resonance to be up above 30Khz and preferably above 50khz.

Very very few MC's actually achieve this.

bye for now

David

[Grbluen]

 David,
I've not checked the f/r on those carts, but that certainly explains it!
Thanks for the lesson,
Don