[glrickaby]

Can't tell whether my PCN220's have aluminum shaft because they are gray . Also stylus may be nude as it is glued on
the back. Also has a red dot. Have one cut back and mounted on an AT11E body, which actually sounds similar to my
AT7V...The AT120e type round plug previously mentioned is an AT12XEPQ which has a .3 x nude elliptical, a step up
from the 120 which is bonded. Paid $29.95 +- 20 years ago from J & R. Spec. sheet shows: Red ATS10,Yellow ATS11,
Green ATS11E, Blue ATS12, Carmel ATN12XE, Ivory ATN12S (bonded Shib.), Orange (.2 x Nude) Burgundy ATN14
(Nude Shib.). This whole round plug line was apparently replaced by the AT120/440 ML square plugs... Imp.1000,
Res.1200 on all except the Shibs. which are 450/500. Interestingly, the AT7V is Imp.500mH,res.650 if my Japanese
is correct (ha!) with what appears to be a .2 x square shank nude elliptical  so it is voiced like the round plug shibs.
which go up to 45,000 while the 7 goes to 25,000, 3000 less than my carmel 12XE which should be mellower at
1000 IMP./1200 Res.This is almost like archeology without the dirty hands! Regards, GL

[neobop]

Hi GL,
The PCN220 is alum and I believe a nude .2 elliptical.  Maybe that's why it sounds similar to the 7V.
The 120E apparently has gone through numerous incarnations.  The current 120E/t has a straight alum cantilever and a nude .3 x .7

The round plugs were replaced by 2 sets of rectangular plugs, the 100 series and the 3400 series. 

The older TOTL and 4-ch carts all had impedance around 500 ohms and low inductance.  It was the shibata stylus that enabled 4-ch.  It was the first extended contact tip.  Soon after came the line contact.  I saw a .2 x .7 listed somewhere that was for 4-ch. I think it was AT, not sure.  The .2 x .7 has the smallest contact patch of any stylus, except if there is a narrower elliptical.  You get good high frequency info, but it will wear out fastest, all things being equal.

Forgot to mention, the cart of the month last month is the JVC X-1 mkII.  Now it's the Astatic MF-2500, said to be the absolute best etc etc. 
neo

[neobop]

Clearaudio has come out with a version 2 (V2) series of their MM line.  These are basically the same generators with more extensive use of wood and stronger magnets for greater output, which is boosted approx. .5mV.  Now they (at least the top ones) are completely covered in wood except the bottom, and look like US civil war battleships.  Raul (Audiogon MM thread guru), criticized the orig Maestro saying it was overdamped.  Maybe the increased output overcomes that, but a boron cantilever tends to sound more detailed and refined, and a little more restrained - less dynamic. 

I've read a few posts by V2 owners who say it's noticeably better.  They seemed enthusiastic in their praise. I take this with a grain of salt however.  Anyone who shells out over $1K for a MM is likely to say that. 

Boys and girls, you can try higher output for yourself, depending on the series of plug you're using.  The orig 440ML had 1.0mV higher output than the Mla.  The rest of the specs are identical so the difference is in the magnets.  When AT discontinued the ML, they said there was a part that was no longer available and they would keep it as close as possible.  That part is the magnets, probably neo magnets 
This stylus is still available.  It will fit any 100/120/150 series plug or could be transplanted into a 3400 (AT95).  I speculate that an alum/ML tends to sound aggressive, but I haven't tried all the possibilities.  If it's too bright you could always load it down.  The 440ML sounds pretty good to me at 32K.
It would also be interesting to transplant the magnets on an exotic cantilever/stylus.
neo

[neobop]

Well, well , it seems like Griffithds, on the Agon thread and now a member here, has tried the ATN440MLa on both a Virtuoso and Maestro. 
His report is very positive beating the Jicos - and any other aluminum cantilevered stylus he transplanted. 
I guessed wrong, thought it would be bright. 

Trying to get a handle on generator specs correlating with stylus type to predict results seems easy on a very basic level, but nearly impossible for ultimate performance.  Mechanical aspects, especially of the cantilever have to be factored in with things like augmenting, or not, treble response.

We've had two positive reports of Soundsmith level 2 and 3 on these carts and I think that might be the way to go.  No feedback yet on 440ML higher output magnets on these. BTW, LpGear is sold out. Might find one on fleabey.
neo

[dlaloum]

It is possible to model the potential result of a hybrid.... the process is as follows:

1) get a working model for a cartridge (I have this in spreadsheet form, it is a bit rough, but it is a good approximation )
2) Measure the donor cartridge performance
3) deduct the electrical performance from the measured to provide a plot of mechanical performance (ie cantilever, suspension, needle, magnets)
4) Use model to superimpose measured mechanical with calculated electrical response of the hybrid cartridge
5) Use model to crunch numbers on possible optimal loading setups...

So the process is possible... although it does require a decent ability with spreadsheets (Excel), along with the right software/hardware and test discs for making the relevant measurements.

I think a CA body with an ATN150MLx stylus fitted should be the equivalent to the $1200 CA Maestro.... for circa $225.

Would this be better or worse than a SS level 2/3 ? - my guess is different!

On the other hand with a SS2/SS3 you can choose the level of compliance to match it better to the arm it will ride... which might be the critical factor!

bye for now

David

[neobop]

It is possible to model the potential result of a hybrid.... the process is as follows:

1) get a working model for a cartridge (I have this in spreadsheet form, it is a bit rough, but it is a good approximation )
2) Measure the donor cartridge performance
3) deduct the electrical performance from the measured to provide a plot of mechanical performance (ie cantilever, suspension, needle, magnets)
4) Use model to superimpose measured mechanical with calculated electrical response of the hybrid cartridge
5) Use model to crunch numbers on possible optimal loading setups...

So the process is possible... although it does require a decent ability with spreadsheets (Excel), along with the right software/hardware and test discs for making the relevant measurements.

I think a CA body with an ATN150MLx stylus fitted should be the equivalent to the $1200 CA Maestro.... for circa $225.

Would this be better or worse than a SS level 2/3 ? - my guess is different!

On the other hand with a SS2/SS3 you can choose the level of compliance to match it better to the arm it will ride... which might be the critical factor!

bye for now

David

Hi David,
Hope all is going well with your new family member.

1) Working model for a cartridge - an electrical model, inductance, DC and/or impedance?  What about output, magnets are listed under suspension?

2) Measure amplitude response only?

4) Calculated electrical response is from step 1, but how do you factor in possible changes of measured response with new stylus/cantilever, known formula or guesswork, at least to some extent?

Nice to hear from you again,
neo

[dlaloum]

Hi Neo,

I have my lovely 2.5 week old on sitting next to me... in loud bawling mode at the moment (feed coming up...). Mum is still in hospital, it was difficult and traumatic from her perspective...
This resulted in my having some time while sitting in hospital to browse the forums...

(silver lining ?)

The base model is Luckydog's work, which he did for the experiments around the capacifier a couple of years back

it takes into account the electrical parameters including phase...
Variables for the model include: cartridge R, Cartridge Z, loading R, Loading C

I then hybridised it by combining it with measured performance,
by deducting measured amplitude / frequency I can deduce the mechanical/ magnetic behaviour as that is what remains

I have not focused on amplitude / magnet strength so can make no comments without further thought, and a closer look at the model...

BUT - there are some other issues potentially - (not being a physicist this is where I start to step into deep water...) a larger magnet might lead to saturation issues, and exacerbate various EM non linearities (the things that design features like lamination are designed to reduce).

Also I believe that pretty much all manufacturers now use rare earth magnets on their styli - although magnet size might vary.

Without any science to back it, I will make the comment that all the highest end MM's have been relatively low output... and a higher output stylus may therefore not be a desirable thing!

larger magnets = higher mass - also undesirable....


On the other hand a shorter cantilever might be a substantive improvement...

bye for now

David

[neobop]

David,
That still doesn't explain prediction of response change with a different stylus/cantilever.  Do you have some kind of model that factors in changes like eff tip mass, cantilever rigidity, and resonance?  How about stylus/contact type? 
Surely there must be some guesswork involved.  When you get to aspects such as more detail being desirable or not, I think it might be a little hard to predict.

I guessed that 440ML magnets would work on the CA generator based solely on inductance (coil size).  I.e. 490mH vs 420mH, seems like it's close enough.
CA output is increased 0.6mV (Maestro), opposed to 1.0mV (440), but 440 is 4mV to start out with and CA is 3.6 so amount of increase might be more like CA?  How they work is another question.

I'm not sure if Griffithds won the orig 440 stylus.  If it works out, a magnet transplant on an exotic cantilever might be the ultimate.
You still with us Griff?

2.5 wks old and mom is still in hospital, you have your hands full.  Give mom our vinylfool best and hopefully she'll be home soon.
neo



 

[griffithds]

Neobop/Dialoum,

Yes, still hear.  I did win a suspect 440ML from a UK eBay's site.  It was from a dealer.  The body is definitely a 440ML LC-OCC.  The stylus does not have the guard so I questioned the dealer about this.  In my minds eye, this could have been either ML or MLa stylus. He received it as a trade-in and felt that it is a ML. He did agree with me that not having a stylus guard leaves it open for questioning!
BTW. I also have the Sound Smith Level1 stylus/cantilever that came with my Black Virtuoso.  I did move it over to the Maestro and will say, it is also a very good, (better than the Jico Shibata and the LPGear V/L versions.  Go figure?  The cantilever is extremely small in diameter and the elliptical tip sparkles with  the tiniest bit of light shining on it.  I don't often see that sparkle after the cartridge is install on the arm.  It must be of a very high quality polish.  I would rate the SS Level 1 better that either the Vivid Line or the Jico Shibata. Not saying their not good, just not as good.  But no doubt, the 440MLa transplant is the most stunning of the 3, and not by just a little either!
Once I receive the 440ML and determine it is a ML, I will transplant it to the Maestro. It it proves to work out as I'm hoping, I want to try the  cantilever/stylus in other AT housing. Like a round plug, etc.  Before I spent $350 for a level 3 SS I would like to know if what I would own could be used to float around to other AT cartridge bodies (transplant into other housings), like Tom's AT13/155.  How about a AT20SS/Sound Smith level 3 cantilever/stylus combination?  Easily done with nothing more than a jewelers screw driver! But lets not get too far ahead of our selves.  1st. Is the 440ML magnets to much for the Maestro or Virtuoso?  The dam may break after that!
Regards,
Don

[dlaloum]

Hi Neo,

I may be being vague - lack of sleep....

The electrical model does not cover all the various finer aspects of performance (those crucial finer details!)

But by deducting the electrical model curve from the measured performance curve, I am left with a plot which effectively is "everything else" other than the base electrical performance.

I then model a different cartridge body's electrical performance, and add it to the "everything else"plot, and voila - an estimate of performance for the new combination (freq/amplitude).

Things not catered for in this model:
Hysteresis, and other magnetic related issues that are improved by lamination, split/slit poles, etc...

The model DOES cater for things like needle profile, effective tip mass, cantilever rigidity and resonance as that would be included in the original measurement used.
I have the necessary test records to measure up to 70kHz - which will pick up the cantilever resonance on every currently available stylus that I know of - it would take something very exotic (and probably vintage 1980's) to have a resonance above 70kHz (EPC100mk4?).

Mum just came home today - last 45min we arrived home - things are looking up! - now I need to try to coordinate with her to ensure we both get enough sleep....

bye for now

David

[neobop]

Griff,
I don't know how I could neglect to mention your SS level 1 results.  That was really a most enlightening comparison, your description of the cantilever/stylus. 
"The cantilever is extremely small in diameter and the elliptical tip sparkles with  the tiniest bit of light shining on it.  I don't often see that sparkle after the cartridge is install on the arm.  It must be of a very high quality polish.  I would rate the SS Level 1 better that either the Vivid Line or the Jico Shibata."

I saw a thread on Karma where David was extolling the benefits of low eff tip mass as the most important parameter.  I agree.  The cantilever is the biggest contributor to tip mass.  Considering that a SS level 1 is $150 and a Jico shibata is $130, the SS is a very good value. 

I think the best value of all is a P-mount AT-92E(CD) stylus.  This has a bonded .3 x .7, but the straight cantilever seems thinner and more responsive.  Compliance is around 9 or so cu @100Hz, so it should work well on med/low mass arms.  I tried it on my Virtuoso on a 7g arm so it's not really a direct comparison with a stylus with 6.5cu @ 100Hz, but it more than held its own compared to the aftermarket ones.  There are some pics further back in the thread, residing on a Unitrac arm.  Best of all, the entire AT-92 cart can still be had for $29 on fleabey.

I wonder if the length of a SS cantilever can be reduced a mm or 2 on an AT cart.  In general, a shorter cantilever is much better. I just remounted my 980LZX the other day and was thinking about this.  I suspect the biggest problem might be with SRA changes.  Maybe I'll try to get ahold of Peter Lederman and ask him.  I had a couple of interesting conversations with him previously when he retipped my Genesis 1000, and he's a great guy to talk to - a straight shooter who won't just try to sell you something.  At least that's my impression.

Griff, what kind of plug does your level 1 have, does it have the compliance screw or press fit?  Just wondering if it's the orig black plug.  I suspect there's a way to remove the press fitting.
neo 

[griffithds]

Hello Neobop,

I do have a couple of questions but first lets start with answering yours.  The SS level 1 came installed in the black plug with screw. I did look at it under a hand held 60X scope and can confirm that  it does have the serrated marking on the side of the plug probably caused by some kind of cutting process.  That tells me it has been trimmed down to size for some larger configuration.  Just like we do with the 95e aftermarket housings. I had my original purchased Virtuoso returned to the dealer for replacement after I bent/broke the cantilever.  What I got back was the green plug that had been painted black installed in the Virtuoso. Both, the original and the replacement plug had the insert ring for locking the cantilever in place.  Peter has either figured out a way to remove the insert ring (without any damage done to the plug), and then installing a screw, or he replaces the plug with a screw type but still in need of  the side flaps trimmed.
I have spent enough money on wrong type 95e or 34xx which did NOT have the screw to have bought another Jico shibata for my Virtuoso. One of them even had a great picture of what looked like a white painted screw head only to discover when I tried to remove it, that it was nothing more that a thin layer of plastic. The mold for this housing must have been taken from a screw type original which had the screw in place at the time of the mold forming.  Frustrating to say the least. If you do get to talk to Peter, see if he will reveal  how he goes from the received insert pin type plug to shipping the screw type plug.
I have discovered that all the AT cheap plugs have the insert ring.  All the aftermarket plugs that I have bought has what appears to have been liquid plastic (usually black in color), inserted into the rear hole to lock the cantilever in place (no insert ring). Some of the AT housings with the insert ring also had this black plastic inserted.  I carefully trimmed away the housing from the both the AT and the aftermarket types to see it I could salvage the cantilever/stylus.  The problem with doing this is that once the cantilever has been removed, it still has the black plastic that had been injected around it still attached. It makes trying to reinstall it into a different plug much more difficult because it is now a very tight fit. It will no longer just easily slide into the installation hole.
Now for my questions. 1) I am not understanding your thought about shorting the SS cantilever. Your quote.
 "I wonder if the length of a SS cantilever can be reduced a mm or 2 on an AT cart."  I read this to mean remove the cantilever from the  "nub" ( I can not recall the actual name for item where the cantilever get glued/solder, or how ever to the remaining shaft), and trim or replace this cantilever with a shorter one.  Or are you thinking of some other way to reduce the length on a AT cart?
2) You installed the cantilever from a AT-92E into a Virtuoso.  Can I assume then that the AT-92E is a screw type AT cart, and was there any of the black plastic material on the compliance screw end of the shaft?  I also am not quite clear on the (CD) you mention after the AT-92E?  Are you saying that there is a AT-92CD?  Or a AT-92ECD?  Please clarify so I can find additional usable plugs with screws and stop filling up my trash can with the wrong ones! Thank you Neobop.
BTW. I have a 160ML sitting on a 150MLX body.  After I finish the 440ML transplants and make my decision on whether to send or not to send it off to SS, I want to transplant it (the 160ML), into the Maestro. This of course means finding more screw plugs.  May Peter will sell some. (grin)

Regards,
Don

[neobop]

Hi Griff,
The AT 3400 series which includes the 95/CA, also includes all those P-mounts with the tall sided plastic stylus holder.  If you cut away the excess plastic the plug fits right in - no transplant necessary.  The AT92E is also called the 92ECD - same cart.  They are a member of the 3400 series.  If you go to Gear you'll find the same aftermarket styli for the 3400 series P-mounts.  They are the same shibata, vivid line etc, except say 3472_.  Look in the section for LpGear replacement styli.  Gear also has orig AT styli like 3472LC or ML.  These also should be on a thinner cantilever with compliance of 10cu or less @ 100Hz.  I was going to try the 3472ML, but at $150 though better of it.  Although I got no answer from Gear, I'm told that these are bonded tips.  Even if the cantilever is thinner, it's still straight.  If I can get a nude ML on a tapered cantilever (440) for $125.....

I'm not sure what's going on with the compliance screws.  The plug I sent you ( w/screw) was from a Jico 95SA from TTNeedles.  AFAIK, no orig AT3400 series stylus has a screw.  The only black 3400 series plastic I know of, is from a 95B limited production, and the CA carts.  I don't think any of these have the screw.  I suspect Lederman can remove the metal fitting.  Look at one closely and you'll see a small section on the top where there's an opening.  If this can be used to extract the fitting, then only a tiny threaded insert is needed to use a screw.

As we discussed on Agon, you were probably given an AT95 stylus on the Virtuoso, either by the retailer or the US distributor.  No mfg is going to paint the bottom of a plug.  It was probably the retailer, but you would have to look at their shipping logs to be sure.  Tell you the truth, I wouldn't put it past CA, but they should have a good supply of plugs and wouldn't want to hurt their reputation if someone found out.  The retailer probably pocketed at least $535 for a CA re-tip that's a rip off to start out with.

In general, a shorter cantilever is better.  It will have a higher resonant freq for a given construction, less mass, and tend to sound more exact. My question for Peter is about the viability of reducing the total length of the cantilever.  I plan on getting a level 3 for my Virtuoso, but I'm not sure when.   
neo

[dlaloum]

Looking forward to hearing the report of the conversation with Peter about cantilever length....

[glrickaby]

I bought an AT92HE stylus only  for $30 +- from an ebay listing affiliated with Needle Daddy.(but a different name)
It has brown plastic wings which have to be trimmed to a 3400 series body. I definitely see a screw head in the plug
hole which is not covered over. It was listed as an AT95E but the description mentioned the Hyper-elliptical diamond.
I also have a regular AT92E with the filled plastic hole so some of the Needle Daddy replacements obviously have a screw....Currently mounted on an AT3003 body which looks the same as an AT92 except black. Haven't played recently
but recall more upper end detail. Strangely, the HE diamond in comparison to the E, looks somewhat larger....Could
easily be transplanted to my AT120E but I've already transplanted another stylus. Also have an new AT125LC which
would work in a transplant to the HE plug if I had a CA body to mount it in but the AT125LC already sounds pretty good
on its own and is actually pretty rare-the diamond is very small as is the shaft. I assume it is bonded but I see a dab on
the back side of the shaft so am not so sure.I can see the screw slot through the white filler....its on a 125LC body.

[neobop]

I bought an AT92HE stylus only  for $30 +- from an ebay listing affiliated with Needle Daddy.(but a different name)
It has brown plastic wings which have to be trimmed to a 3400 series body. I definitely see a screw head in the plug
hole which is not covered over. It was listed as an AT95E but the description mentioned the Hyper-elliptical diamond.
I also have a regular AT92E with the filled plastic hole so some of the Needle Daddy replacements obviously have a screw....Currently mounted on an AT3003 body which looks the same as an AT92 except black. Haven't played recently
but recall more upper end detail. Strangely, the HE diamond in comparison to the E, looks somewhat larger....Could
easily be transplanted to my AT120E but I've already transplanted another stylus. Also have an new AT125LC which
would work in a transplant to the HE plug if I had a CA body to mount it in but the AT125LC already sounds pretty good
on its own and is actually pretty rare-the diamond is very small as is the shaft. I assume it is bonded but I see a dab on
the back side of the shaft so am not so sure.I can see the screw slot through the white filler....its on a 125LC body.

Hi GL,
I think your ATN92HE is an aftermarket (prob Jico) stylus.  All the AT 3400 P-mount styli seem to be without a screw.  Good find.  It seems the screw is being phased out even in the aftermarket ones, prob due to demand for replacement styli for both the AT95, which has become quite popular as a budget cart, and CA replacements.  I don't know what the generator differences are in all the P-mount bodies, but my impression is that the price goes beyond their actual worth, just like the bonded styli on a straight cantilever, with a more advanced profile.

The ATN125LC is a titanium bonded tip on a tapered? cantilever.  I think it sells for $70 at Stereoneedles.  I have a ATN140LC I bought to try on my 440 body.  It's the same except has a nude square shank tip.  I only put a couple of hrs on it, but it seemed to sound similar to the 440ML stylus.  I guess it would be a good candidate for transplant, I'm just not into it at this time.

I'm not sure if I reported it here, but a bunch of us bough out the PCN550ML from LpGear for $200 a pop.  There are photos of it back a page or two on this thread - the blue stylus holder.  Even though the stylus guard says Precept, it's a fake.  The cantilever looks like straight aluminum.  It's supposed to be beryllium.  Not sure exactly what kind of tip is bonded on there, but it's definitely not a TOTL nude ML on beryllium as advertised. 
LpGear offered to refund Raul.  He seems to be the only one who can get an answer from them.  I (and others) asked them questions before, and got no reply.  Even though I chopped up the plastic to try on the 15, maybe I'll put in for a refund.  It has a lively sound on the 15, but got tiring after awhile, similar to a 440ML @ 47K.  I even changed the load to 32K, but figured WTF and moved on.   I remember the sound of the ATN152ML on a 440 body on the Sonus arm.  It was about as good as a MM gets.
neo

[Grbluen]

Neo, I'm a little confused. I thought Raul was raving about that stylus. This was, of course, before my self-imposed exile.

Don

[griffithds]

Hi Neobop,

I have also bought a slightly used AT 440MLa($130).  I liked what I have been hearing with my transplant and wanted not only an extra cantilever/stylus assembly (with the way it just sticks out there, I just know this thing is going to get bent some day), but because it was a complete cartridge.  I wanted to try your 152 LP/440 combination.  What you described sounds like something I would like to own.  The only part I had missing was a 440 cartridge body.  Two birds with one stone as they say!
I am wondering if I send my Maestro to Sound Smith, without a stylus plug, if Peter would supply one for  a Level 3 upgrade?  The only plug I am willing to give up easily is the green one that was painted black which I got during a dealer replacement (cartridge swap). It of course has the damn insert ring!
Thank you GLrickaby for the AT92HE information.  I will be looking for one of those for future use.

Regards,
Don

[dlaloum]

Depending on the arm you have - the ATN155 is also worth considering - identical to the ATN152, but with slightly higher compliance...

[neobop]

Hi Griff,
The stylus I used was a 152ML not LC, but it should be really good.  I did have to load it down a hair, around 42K.  On the Sonus arm it was really quite something.  Wish I still had the stylus.
If it has been sitting I imagine it might take some time to break in that body again.  Longest break in I've experienced was with the 440.

The plug that comes with the CA carts are press fit - no stylus screw.  So it should be all right to send Peter whatever you've got.  Maybe if you put a note in there asking if the cantilever length can be shortened a mm or 2 without screwing up SRA, you'll get a call from Peter.  He's a great guy to talk to.
The concern is that the stylus is at a fixed angle and changing length might make getting correct SRA/VTA  impossible.  Even if you keep original length I'm sure it will be great.  Maybe it wouldn't be a good idea to ask for it to be shorter w/o talking to Peter first!!  LOL

May the farce be with you Darth Griff,
neo