[neobop]

Hi GL,
It's been awhile.  You're talking about the PCN220 stylus, right?  Yes it's the same carrier as the PCN550.
There's been some recent developments in the hunt for the mystery cart, and specs thereof.

Some of the guys are having trouble posting on Agon, and started a thread of the same name, Who needs a MM... etc on Karma.  To make a long story short, the PC220 is the same generator as the PC440.  They both have inductance and resistance < around 500, similar to the top AT carts.  I've been using the PCN550(ML) on my AT15 with interesting results.  I formerly used an ATN20SS on there and there's a greater difference than I would have imagined.  Where the 20SS is smooth and sweet, the 550 is more detailed, live and unforgiving.  I expected that but not nearly so much. It might have stronger magnets.  I'll have to put the 20SS back and see if I can tell the difference in output.  The PC110 that David has, apparently is a different cart with higher output and different specs.

Timeltel, transplanted a ATN155LC into a 13Ea carrier and did a mini review. Seems like he had great results with that combo.  The review is a page or two behind the current page.  All you need is a $190 stylus, LOL.  The ATN20SS will cost as much, but has a round plug.  BTW, your PCN220 is a nude sq shank .2 x .7 on a tapered stylus?  Max VTF 1.75g, at least that's what the spec sheet says - 1/2 way down the page:
http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=8831

And that's all the news that fits.
neo

[glrickaby]

Neo-Thanks for the update and info. From the specs, my pcn 220 appears identical to the AT7V i.e. Nude, 2 x 7,tapered
shaft etc.,except a round plug. That's why it sounded similar even though the AT12 body is not as good as the AT7V.
I've been recovering from surgery for some months and finally am feeling close to normal again. Understand the AT7V
is actually a Japan market item. Bought 2/220's which is why I could cut one down for the AT12 body. Also appreciate
the copy to the Tapeheads page. My, you have been doing some technical work in my absence.. no stylus Virtuoso's
are getting pricy- bid up to $150 on one and it went over $200. Since you say the bodies are the same, may go lower
in the line. Just rewired a Dual and followed VdH's advice and wound around the tube. cartridge carrier nuded so the
cart. plugs into cart. clips. Actually sounds better than OEM. I have several Duals and the sleds drive me crazy.Getting
more into roller units as I like the sound. Picked up an old Empire 999 SE/X(?) which I really like.(ha)Also been running
an AT125LC for which I paid dearly for an OEM stylus. Rambling I guess.... Again thanks, and look forward to your often
brilliant comments . Regards, Gerald Rickaby

[neobop]

GL,
Thanks for the kind words. I'd like to point out that it was you who first posted the fact that CA is really an AT 3400 series cart - body/stylus.  Speaking of which, there's a "new" V2 series of CA MMs. It seems that output is boosted by around .5mV with stronger magnets and impedance/inductance is almost unchanged.  More extensive use of wood better hides the 3400 metal body.  A couple of people are raving about the V2 Maestro, but I doubt if the used price will come down much more for a crippled Virtuoso. As you know it was Raul's #1 as cart of the month, for quite a few months.  LpGear sells the orig ATN440ML stylus for $150. Orig 440 had a whopping 1.0mV higher output.  I no longer have the stylus to try.  The orig CA line all used the same generator.  More expensive models had better tolerances, like AT vs Signet.

The ATN7V prob has lower compliance than your PCN220.  LpGear imported 7V, but I think now it is a reg US model.  The inexpensive AT-100E ($90) has a 150MLX generator, PC OCC wire and everything.  Comes with a straight alum/bonded 3 mil.  Lots of potential there. The ATN140LC (nude) is around $90 at StereoNeedles.

What's this Dual thing, bypassing the headshell/arm wiring?  You have quite a collection.  When I was a kid my fam had a Garrard Type A.  I loved that changer.

That's the news from over the top, at least all I can think of.
Have a speedy recovery so you can sit on your ass and play with your toys.   
neo

 

[neobop]

I started investigating MM cart design parameters a few yrs back, because of the possibility of stylus substitution and availability of published specs, made it  relatively easy to make correlations.   AT was the obvious choice for this because of all the models over the years.  I liked the detail on top AT carts even if some had to be loaded down for me to get the "right" balance, top to bottom.  I don't want to discuss whether or not MM/MI should be loaded or not.  The case is closed as far as I'm concerned.  The situation is ridiculous.  Options are usually provided for MCs where loading doesn't make much difference as far as amplitude response is concerned, yet MM/MI carts are supposed to all work into one setting with only capacitance loading as an option and most of the time you don't even get that. 

The audio mfg and reviewer/press have failed the vinyl community in this omission, and failed badly.  Outside of Werner Ogier's article in TNT (Load the Magnets) there's virtually no information on this subject outside of forums.  With record sales increasing at a rate of 30% per year, for the last 5 years vinyl and record players are a growth industry and MM/MI carts have potential much greater than most have been lead to believe.  This isn't about the superiority of one type over another.  It's about options and making the most of what you have or making a more informed choice.  It seems to me there's a difference in presentation between a MC and MM, and whether you prefer one or the other or can appreciate both is a matter of opinion, not fact. Many of the guys who participate on the longest running thread on Agon, Who Needs a MC..., have $50K + + systems and use MMs. 

Because of the relatively long cantilevers, that seems to be the area of greatest potential for improving the sound of an AT.  The TOTL Maestro has a boron cantilever and micro tip, just like a 150MLX, only the compliance is different.  All the CA MMs are 6.5 cu @100Hz, = 15cu @10Hz.  The AT-150, 120, 440, all are 10cu @100Hz, = around 18cu @10Hz, less suited for med/heavy arms.  CA was on the ball in ordering the right generator for their MMs.  There is no AT counterpart that has those exact same specs which is probably part of their agreement.  The bodies are a 3400 series body, same as an AT-95, Linn K9, and about a million other AT made carts.  The characteristics of the top AT performers, including CA, Signet, and Precept, is low inductance and impedance - AT-20SS, 20SLa, CA, PC-440, 550, TK-10ML etc are all considered top performers.  Some of the ones with higher inductance might be less transparent, but have good listenability like the AT-12E, 13E.  The AT-95 has low inductance but higher impedance, and has a nice neutral sound, but with less detail than the top generators.  That may be due to its not having the PCOCC wire.  More later.
neo

 

[glrickaby]

I'm playing an AT95 body with an HE stylus (bought used but probably from LP Gear) on a very nice BIC 980 changer. On
the 980, the tracking angle can be changed as it has a little non-concentric screw. Sounds very nice with lots of detail and
dynamics. To my ears, may sound as good as some of the CA clones I've had, notwithstanding the electrical differences you
have mentioned. I actually prefer the hyperelliptical to the  Stereo Needles Shibata I had, which ended up on a Virtuoso
Body and was sold.  Maybe the difference is in set up ( I guestimate a lot) as the Shibata/LC types  may be more fussy
about set up etc., but on AT95 or CA bodies, they have more upper end detail but sound more "astringent", (hope that's
the right word!)... I have two Duals and a Rega 3 hooked up in my Den and two Garrard AT95s plus the Bic and a nice
Thorens TD190 automatic down the basement, plus 3-1200 series Duals that are "sick" and I'm working on, plus a
Hitachi Linear track I brought back from AZ plus an Old Garrard and "Icon" (?)in AZ and a  Pioneer PL510a DD-manual
sitting on the floor in the back of my Den because I have no room for it. Really is a sickness I guess, kind of like some
places the Pickers on TV visit but not quite as bad....Unfortunately, this also creates a clutter of phono preamps also
which I won't go into... Your comments about the CA specs are quite interesting and obviously an attempt by them to
differentiate from the AT line so the Audiophile world will consider them different and unique rather than a wooden
cloaked AT with a somewhat  different generator.  Actually what you observe makes a lot of sense as their product
would appeal to the VPI and somewhat heavier tonearm people because of its initial cost in relationship to the quality
of the TT.

[neobop]

Good golly GL that's quite a herd. 

I don't think differentiating from AT was the primary concern.  I think CA was out to have the best MM they could, and AT was the right company for the job.  Who else has the experience in precision mfg of phono carts?  Some people think of AT as entry level carts or overly bright, but AT has made some exceptional carts like those previously mentioned.  People remember the 881 being used as a reference, but seem to forget the AT-170 - less sweet but more detailed and transparent, mentioned in the same context. The wood tops or bodies is also a great idea and provides an interface like an exotic wood headshell.  You're the one who recommends nuding all the styli and if it looks like an MC, all the more credible for the title,  worlds best.

I am a little surprised that CA thought they could get away with the nonreplaceable stylus thing, but I guess it worked at first and helped get them rated as #1.  Now V2 have stronger magnets and if you substitute an aftermarket 95 you'll have reduced output.  But you could still have it retipped or even a new cantilever and keep the existing magnets. The CA is best with an exotic cantilever and micro tip, just like a Maestro or TK-10ML or all the other top ATs.
The 95 is a great inexpensive cart.  With the right stylus it improves somewhat, but sounds pretty nice with the stock 4 x 7 mil.  What's not to like, sounds like music.
neo
 

[glrickaby]

I have a couple of Shure M-91s with cheap needles. Tried one and was quite impressed. Found a JICO from the Stereo Needle Lady
(Elliptical) @$12.95 including free shipping that I'll try. Also found the Canadian Astatic web site. They have thousands of needles,
all except one, for $29.95 flat price regardless of needle, including ellipticals and if I understand the symbols correctly, a few
line contact types. No AT 150's but still lots of choices. Site looks like copies of old stylus lists so don't know the age of their
stock but worth a look!

[neobop]

Age of a replacement needle doesn't matter.  The only thing that could show its age is the rubber damper.  Modern rubber compounds don't dry up like natural rubber.  I saw a post by Blue Angel, a guy who makes expensive MCs -  hundreds of old carts were given to him and he takes them apart.  He said he has yet to see a failure due to the rubber drying out.  If anything is wrong it's usually a broken suspension wire that's to blame.

One part of this record playing hobby that's neglected IMO, is making the most of what you have, and loading a HO cart can make the difference between good and bad.  Sometimes little adjustments like putting a shim in a headshell on an arm w/o height adjustment, or noticing an arm bearing isn't quite right and fixing it, or cleaning your belt and pulley, etc etc can turn a horrible sounding machine into something that sounds like music.  Not everyone is obsessed like some of us, and not everyone can afford expensive record players.  These days, people graduating college are lucky if they can find a decent job let alone spend thousands on a record player.  When I was the table guy, it was more of a challenge to get an inexpensive setup sounding decent, than a high end setup sounding awesome.

I think this vinyl resurgence has gone on long enough and it's high time people are informed about loading and IMO should only buy a phono stage that can accommodate different loads. The little Vista for only $300 has plug in resistor loading like my AHT, which is now the Walker and costs $12K (I think).  There are a few others that give you options, most with dip switches, but the Vista is said to beat $1K phono stages like the Graham Slee Era Gold V.  I haven't heard the Vista but you can go to their circle and read the testimonials.  With a conventional MM stage you can load down by using parallel resistors, but if you want to load a M97 at 62K, you're screwed unless you replace the load resistors in your pre. 

This is the fault of the audio establishment, mostly reviewers.  They drool all over $5K carts and discuss loading at length, yet every HO cart gets loaded at 47K and they don't even bother with capacitance loading.  If they spoke out about MM loading, manufacturers would respond.  As it is, things are ass backwards.  Loading is more critical for HO carts, not less.  If you drive a Porsche, you might not care about a Honda Civic, but do a few mods to that Honda and it will put a smile on your face.
neo

 

 

 

[neobop]

Hey GL,
There was some conjecture awhile back about the manufacturer of AT-95 replacement styli.  I just checked out what LpGear and TurntableNeedles are selling these for now.  Gear no longer sell the HE, it's replaced with the vivid line ($89).  They say the get it from someone other than Jico (unspecified).  This was told to somebody on Karma.  Needles still sells the HE ($79 + nearly free ground ship) and Jico is specified on their listing.  They also say the shibata is Jico.  BTW, Gear has a SE stylus - 3 x 7 mil for $45.
For what it's worth.

I got a HE for my modded 95 and it sounds great right out of the box.  David said that the HE and Vivid Line look like the same cut.  I'm not using the Virtuoso at the moment.  I'm thinking of sending it to Soundsmith for a level 3 stylus.  Maybe I'll do another comparison first with the HE. 
neo

[glrickaby]

Perhaps showing my ignorance- Capacitance has do with the wiring, i.e. cables? A short cable has less (or more) capacitance
than a longer one etc., ? A MI like Grado is immune to capacitance or is it loading? Neo, maybe your explanation will help
me out of the wilderness... There are certainly thousands of cartridge preamps @47K so the market would be slow to change
would it not.?  Catman -i.e. Felix has explained how to add resisters to change from 47 to 62 loading but dummies like me
actually need a picture or diagram to do this. Believe he writes on AK and VE. While I'm wandering, someone needs to start
a thread explaining some of the equipment being reviewed in magazines like Audiophile such as DA converters etc., things
you can plug into your computer USB etc., Why a pre-amp is helpful, why Receivers are never reviewed and actually looked
down on etc., I'm not even sure how to ask the questions but my 1960-1970 mentality about stereo does cause some
confusion in the articles I read about new equipment. Incidently, just received my $12+ JICO N-91 from Caroles Needles
and though obviously not an SAS, does sound mighty fine so JICO made standard ellipticals are indeed a cut above.....

[dlaloum]

Capacitance is another form of loading - the wires/cables have both capacitance and resistance (including tonearm wiring) - but in addition to this, almost all phono stages (well all the ones I know about!) also have some capacitance loading built in - usually in the form of a capacitor!

With cables, capacitance is accrued (much like resistance) per length/distance - halve the length of a cable, and you will halve its capacitance.

To achieve a capacitance of circa 60pf on my JVC TT, I used a very short 6" interconnect hard wired at the table - the phono stage sits directly behind the TT, almost touching it.

The capacitance forms an LCR circuit (inductance / capacitance / resistance) with the inductance of the cartridge.... if the cartridge has sufficiently low inductance, then the system will be relatively capacitance insensitive.... The Grado MI designs are capacitance insensitive (relatively) not due to being an MI design, but due to being a relatively low inductance design!
Most MC's are also low inductance and therefore capacitance insensitive, as are the much rarer low inductance MM designs (eg: Stanton 881, Pickering 7500)

The recommended loading for a standard MM/MI cartridge takes into account the effect of a specified capacitive load along with a known (standard?!) resistive load of 47kOhm.

Werner Ogiers has an excellent article reviewing the Shure M97xE and looking at the impact of capacitive loading on this cartridges performance (http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/shure_m97xe_e.html)
On the same website he also did some other articles with the M97xE looking at loading...

With regards to resistive loading (such as switching from 47k to 62k per catmans advice on AK) - increasing the loading is difficult and usually requires some soldering, as you can only go down from whatever is at the phono stage input.... and with most phono stages being by default at 47k - you need to increase their internal resistance load to 100k or more which requires a soldering iron.

Parallel loading can be used to add capacitance or reduce resistance - good articles on this topic here:http://daveyw.edsstuff.org/vinyl/loading/ 

hope this helps

bye for now

David

[neobop]

On a more basic level, a transducer is a device that converts energy from one form to another.  A speaker converts electrical energy to sound, and on the other end, a phono cart converts mechanical energy to electricity.  Like a loudspeaker crossover, inductors (coils) and capacitors (capacitance) are part of the mix or properties of the generating system, but can't be eliminated like in using a full range speaker.  It's my understanding that Grado carts have little inductance because the coils are hooked up to cancel, like a Humbucking guitar pickup. 

A phono cart is a small generator and the movements of the cantilever are what excite the generator.  A LOMC has tiny coils attached to the cantilever and inductance is very low, as is the output voltage.  A LOMC might have only 7 or 8 turns of wire per coil - resistance might be 10 ohms and inductance is typically measured in micro henries.  A HO cart has around 10x the output but the larger amount of inductance, which can be 3000 turns of wire, are also a property of that output.  Total capacitance loading recommendations from the mfg (preamp + cables + arm wire) are based on the use of capacitance to tune the mechanical performance of the generating system by lowering the high frequency resonance (or not) and augmenting the treble.  Just as it's necessary to maintain 250pF for an M97 to sound right, other carts might sound excessively bright with too much capacitance. Many modern carts have recommended capacitance load of < 200 or 300pF.  If typical 1 meter cables + arm wire have 100 to 150pF, then preamp should be around 50pF for these carts.  Some vintage carts needed much more capacitance like 400pF or so, to sound right.  Sometimes you can increase the resistance load instead of adding lots of capacitance.  It might be a combination of both that will yield flattest response, just like the M97 @ 62K, 250pF.
neo

[glrickaby]

Wow! Thanks Neo, it will take me a little time to absorb all this but am going to try a shorter cable from Phono preamp to TT.
How about the cable from Preamp to receiver? Does length make any difference? Again, thanks-GL

[neobop]

The critical cable with HO carts is from table to phono stage.  AT (and others) recommends < 200pF for all their MMs.  That's 200pF total and includes the phono stage.  So if your phono stage is 100pF, which has become the modern default, you'll need to keep the cable capacitance really low.  That's what David was talking about with his phono stage located right behind the table.  Another approach is to use very low capacitance cables.  Blue Jeans sells a cable that's only 12.5pF/ft, so a 4 ft cable has only 50pF.  Many vintage tables came with low capacitance cables attached, but I don't think most were nearly as low as Blue Jeans.

The cable between phono stage and line stage is at high level and is the same as any high level interconnect, like from a tape deck or CD. 
neo

[neobop]

Hey GL,
I got a HE for my modded 95 and it sounds great right out of the box.  David said that the HE and Vivid Line look like the same cut.  I'm not using the Virtuoso at the moment.  I'm thinking of sending it to Soundsmith for a level 3 stylus.  Maybe I'll do another comparison first with the HE. 
neo

I hadn't used the 95 for quite some time and it was almost like breaking in a new cart.  Last night I substituted the Virtuoso and used the same HE stylus.  No doubt about it, the Virtuoso is a better cart if you want resolution and harmonic detail.  Still, the AT-95 is pretty amazing for under $50.  It's one of the few inexpensive carts that will work in a med/heavy arm and is easy to listen to.  Compliance is 15cu.  The sound still reminds me of the Denon 103 - naturally musical if not overly detailed.  Great cart to have around if you're restoring a vintage table with a heavy arm.  The aftermarket styli can take it up a notch or two.
neo 

[glrickaby]

Neo, just ran my AT95HE on an old Pioneer PL510A manual TT through some Advent Legacy II(an updated large Advent)
speakers and had an "old glow" nuanced sound, using a Rotel preamp @100 watts power on an old AIWA receiver. Tried
several other cartridges mounted on S arm headshells while I was at it: an AT3400 (conical), Nag. MP-11, AT-11 Generic-
(Green) elliptical, AT70/3601 (came on thousands of TT- has the "hook" on the back), Empire 2000-gold case-red elliptical
and strangely enough, a carmel AT version of the AT-120 but has a round plug with the same specs- have the box somewhere
but don't remember the model #. Interesting, the AT95 stylus will fit the AT70/3600 body but leaves a gap on the front, just
like on the Linn K-9.  Anyway, the 95HE was the "mellowest" of the bunch with the other ATs having a somewhat sharper
sound. The Nag.MP-11 may have had somewhat more detail but is a more expensive unit. The Empire 2000 had a similar
sound but not quite as mellow. The old DD Pioneer made even the AT "hooked" version sound pretty good. The 3400 is
of course, the conical version of the AT95 and did have a brighter sound. Music was a Boccherini Concerto on NM vinyl.
Either the PL510A is very forgiving or my ears can no longer tell, as nothing sounded bad!-only different.

[neobop]

GL,
Just for the record, the 3400 and the AT95 are different carts although the styli are interchangeable.  Someone gave me a 3400 stylus.  It has a carbon fiber cantilever, conical tip and high VTF.  Maybe I didn't break it in enough, but I didn't like it on my modded 95. 

Nagaoka had a version of the MP11 that came with a boron cantilever.  Seems like there was much love for the MP11 boron.  I never heard one.

Do you still have the Garrott?

Seems to me, if a cart has been sitting around unplayed for a long time, it requires some break in before it sounds right. 
neo

[neobop]

Hey GL,
Any experience with Acutex transplants?  Tubed1 in the Who needs a MM thread 4-28-13, is looking for advise.  I have zero experience with Acutex.

How are you doing, how's the recovery going?
neo

[glrickaby]

Neo- for some reason, didn't receive notice of your reply. Feel so good it scares me! Having a cat scan end of week so will
feel even better after that.... I still have the Garrott K-2 which I'm running with an EXCEL S700ER .02 x .08 Elliptical. Also
have a virtually identical Excel cartridge which I'm running with another same stylus. Same sound, about a $20 cartridge
used. Bought because the picture looked identical to the Garrott... My problem is I have about 12 cartridges sitting on my
shelf, plus a few more in my box and 4-5 mounted on various TT's so its difficult to schedule playing time for everything...
Right now I'm enamored with an Empire 999 SE/X which I'm running with a round shaft stylus trademarked
A (for AVR?) .02 x elliptical which has a huskiness which is delightful, though a low rider as I believe the 999 series has a
larger shaft. I've had some Acutex 310 series in the past; had a pointed nose stylus which I don't know how you would
transplant except with the cactus method discussed on another thread at AK or VE. No tiny screw like with the AT's....
I knew the 3400 had higher output. A 95 on the 3400 actual body sounds good but the 3400 on the 95 body would
sound brighter. I have both bodies and both styli and often get the bodies mixed up. Even the 3600 body with the dog
ear hook on the back of the stylus , looks the same with the stylus removed... Believe word has gotten around about CA
stylus replacement because broken ones are going for more than I want to pay. Good to hear from you. GL

[neobop]

A quick update on the round plug Odyssey.  It turns out that the PCN550 has an aluminum cantilever with a bonded needle that might be a microline.  The PC550 stylus seemed to be a bit much on the 15.  I put the 20SS stylus back on and traded off front row super live, in your face performance, for refinement.  Back to the normal excellence and I could relax once again.  So here I was, minding my own business and and I thought I might transplant the PCN550 into a 3400 type plug for the Virtuoso.  I sat down at my bench and there was the 12E looking lonely and unloved, so I trimmed some more plastic and fit the stylus on.  I'm not sure how far this will go, I've only played a couple of sides, but it sounds pretty good.  This generator has higher impedance and inductance than the 15 which normally means more mellow, and it seems like a good match.

This started out trying to figure out the AT counterpart to the PC440.  Some AT12 and 13 models have identical output.  Timeltel, a guy on Agon transplanted a beryllium/LC into a round plug for a 13Ea, and got great results.  Just goes to show you, the secret is in the combo if you can figure out what the good combo is.
neo