Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond

neobop · « **Reply #380 on:** 18 Oct 2013, 02:42 pm »

Dynavector describes it (XV-1t) as a line contact - 7 X 30 microns. Manufacturer unknown.

Clearaudio describes their top MC diamonds as micro HD. The Maestro says boron/HD. When Maestro first came out, CA gave the tip some kind of Star Trek name. It began with a "T" but I can't remember exactly - Tetragon or something like that.

I believe Namiki is the largest manufacturer of these tips and I also think they often come mounted on the cantilever. Companies like Lyra and ZYX get their tips from Namiki. My Genesis has a microridge, undoubtedly from them in the '80s. I wonder if they could be induced to make a hollow tube boron cantilever again like my Genesis has. With the money they charge for top carts today, you'd think it would pay for a tube cantilever. I bought my first Genesis 1000 back in "87 or '88. It had response out to around 80K. About a year later they made a model change (quietly, w/o changing designation) and extended response past 100K. Can't say I could hear the difference, but I'm quite sure of the response claims. The supplied printout graph ended at 100K.

Sometimes changing a record or type of music can reveal previously unheard differences. Classical music tends to be more demanding and therefore revealing. Combinations of equipment or even cables, especially tonearm cables, can make everything sound similar. I remember reading about the Art DJ phono stage and someone said it made carts sound the same. I'm not saying what the situation is, but Don, I think you'd hear greater differences with further exploration.
neo

Don,
I just saw your response. It is a Star Trek tip? You've never seen anything like it? Any chance of posting a photo(s)?

Grbluen · « **Reply #381 on:** 18 Oct 2013, 02:50 pm »

I believe Clearaudio called it a Trigon P, if I'm not mistaken. I'm using Haydn's streichquartette an a means of comparison.

Don grb

P.S. I've not had difficulty with carts sounding the same. I'd think the Simaudio 310 lp would be reasonable.

neobop · « **Reply #382 on:** 18 Oct 2013, 03:44 pm »

Quote from: Grbluen on 18 Oct 2013, 01:55 pm

Neo,
Please don't apologize for any statements which may be helpful in my education. I've examined the Maestro stylus under 200x, and it doesn't resemble anything that I've seen before. I'll have to double check, but I feel safe in saying that it's not the same as the 440mla. You are absolutely correct when you say that I do not possess the same level of discernment as you and the others.I don't have a "dog in this fight". I'm only curious as to why AT spec'd this cartridge the way they did. I'm not trying to sell you anything. As far inductance is concerned, I seem to remember there were a couple out units in the list which stood out. I believe the AT13Ea being one.I've been meaning to ask, if it's possible that it's not only the inductance that matters, but how closely the inductance and resistance match. It seems that some of your highly thought of carts shared this trait. Regardless, don't ever hesitate to question me or my powers. I'm here to learn, not to teach.

Don grb

Don grb,
We all learn here and I don't think your powers of discernment are less than anyone else posting on this thread, and I don't recall saying that. We're all limited by the equipment at our disposal and the time we have to devote to these endeavors. I remember at one point you were looking for a brighter sound. I assumed this was system related. Could this have something to do with results, Maestro vs LS500?

There's still much we don't understand about electrical parameters and performance. You hit the nail on the head about resistance. I don't think matching inductance is it, but I'm not sure. There's a relationship between resistance and impedance that seems important. High impedance is indicative of high reactance and to make matters more confusing, many of the specs we look up, seem wrong. We know for example the 440 impedance is 3.2K and inductance is 490mH. Why then is a 13Ea or your LS500 with around 1000mH and bigger coils, 1200 ohms? It doesn't make sense. Maybe 1200 is the resistance and impedance unknown.

Were you using the stock alum/LC stylus on the LS500?
neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #383 on:** 18 Oct 2013, 05:42 pm »

I've been using the stylus transplanted from the AT-440MLa. The curious thing about the current state of affairs is: the LS500 is supposed to go down to about 5 hz. I had only begun to optimize the ls500 in this regard. At this point I can't testify to the high end, but I've never heard a cartridge with this much low end.

neobop · « **Reply #384 on:** 18 Oct 2013, 10:39 pm »

Quite a few ATs were spec to 5Hz. There's really no information down there except warps.
Are you getting a prodigious amount of bass, relatively, with the cart? If so, there could be a couple of factors influencing that. One would be the response of cart, but more likely is your transplant might need tightening. Did you have this bass with the orig stylus? By your description I'm not sure if this is just deep or excessive.

I have a 12E that's supposedly the same motor. I haven't used it much - and only with the fake PC550 stylus, but response seemed reasonable. You're the only one checking out the LS500 so you tell us. Take your time. I suspect the MLa stylus might have brought it some life, but this is pure guesswork.
neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #385 on:** 18 Oct 2013, 11:37 pm »

Initially, the cart was bass shy. I had to add mass to the headshell to bring the bass alive. The bass isn't excessive it's just right. No one note bass, it's rich with harmonic overtones, just the way I'd imagine it should be. I'm not finished with the tracking force, but I'd have to guess this combination probably isn't the easiest to optimize.

neobop · « **Reply #386 on:** 19 Oct 2013, 09:24 am »

As a general rule, when substituting a stylus you use the VTF range of the cart the stylus was made for. If you're using the 440 stylus, that would be a max of 1.8g.

Interesting stuff. Appreciate your observations.
neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #387 on:** 19 Oct 2013, 03:19 pm »

I'll admit my first run at the Maestro was during my earlier attempts at cartridge/table setup. I made no attempts to optimize the sound, I simply lined it up, set the azimuth and the tracking force. I'll try to be a little more patient with the Maestro this go ' round. As it sits today the settings are: capacitance right around 180 puff, 47k ohms, and the vtf is around 2g.
With the LS500, the vtf is around 1.4g, and I think I'm going to have to go a little lighter.
The highs aren't quite where I want them to be and I think harmonically it could be better. After comparing the ls to the maestro, I'm starting to think simple protractors will not be good enough for microline contact styli. I think these must be done "by ear" or with a ' scope.

neobop · « **Reply #388 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 12:54 pm »

Do you have the owners sheet on the LS500? 1.4g seems a little light. I don't know all the specs, but the LS400 looks like an AT-95 with compliance and VTF. Recommended max VTF for the 400 is 2.5g, which would make it nearly identical in that respect to the 95/CA.

Unless you have contrary information, I think you should try it in the Maestro range and in a med mass arm. What arm(s) are you using?

It takes awhile to get a handle on exactly what's doing what, when adjusting a cart. Even with experience sometimes you guess wrong. Your basic parameters are alignment, VTF, azimuth and SRA/VTA. If you're tracking too light you could get momentary dropouts from the stylus losing contact with the groove. As a general rule, I always start near the max recommended value for a cart.

If you have a good, easy to see protractor and some light magnification, don't expect a minor alignment change to be the revelation that some people go on about. Half the time you probably won't hear a change. Sometimes you will. It depends on the correction and whether the former alignment was going off into space, or just a partial alignment with another set of nulls, probably close. Many people don't understand alignment and think there is only two or three sets of nulls you can use or you're hopelessly lost. It ain't so. If you run out of room in your headshell and your nulls wind up at 64mm and somewhere near 120mm, you'll have a perfectly good alignment - almost Baerwald. As long as the cantilever angle gives you 2 good nulls near one of the standard alignments and not somewhere off the record, you'll be okay. If you make a radical change of arm height you should recheck alignment. If the alignment is way off there will be a phase difference between channels. I have a feeling this isn't the case with your set-up.

Speaking of arm height, this is one thing that will change tonality, top to bottom balance and minimize harmonic distortion. If the arm is too high you'll get strident high frequencies. If too low, the highs tend to drop out and the top sounds distant and/or nonexistent. Sometimes a level cart works, sometimes not.
neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #389 on:** 21 Oct 2013, 02:47 pm »

Neo,
I'm running the AT440Mla on the LS500. The tracking force range on the 440 is 1.0-1.8 (1.4 optimal).
I started out near the top of it's range and slowly backed the vtf down. After adding mass to the headshell, I listened for the harmonic structure of the bass. That is how I've gotten near the 1.4g vtf.
The highs are only slightly dull, and I'm sure I'll end up somewhere near 1.4gms.
I just can't imagine that I've totally screwed up the settings on the Maestro, but stranger things have happened!

Grbluen · « **Reply #390 on:** 23 Oct 2013, 11:42 am »

Neo,
After thinking about it a little more, I'm thinking the string quartet may not be the strongest test.
Do you have any suggestions of available classical music which may provide a better test?
Thanks,
Don grb

neobop · « **Reply #391 on:** 23 Oct 2013, 04:54 pm »

Don,
The problem is, I'm not sure what's in print. I like symphonic music and I used to have a few gems on Chesky, Lyrita and some regular labels like RCA and London etc. A full orchestra will have it all, from massed strings to the bark of the bass and sometimes thundering tympani drums. Choral pieces are good too.

Brahms (especially the 4th) is great for strings. Aaron Copeland is a lot of fun and has it all. Most any standard by Dvorak, Mussorgsky, Tchaikovsky, Beethoven etc, as long as you get familiar with the pressing/recording. They seem to vary a lot in VTA/SRA and I can't listen to them unless I get it dialed in. You might want to look for the label.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/classical-beethoven-concerto-piano-orch-paul-badura-skoda-audiophile-1973-harmonia-mund-2013-10-22-music-55405

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/classical-berlioz-munch-symphonie-fantastique-rca-shaded-dog-1962-2013-10-22-music-11801

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/classical-lorin-maazel-direct-from-cleveland-direct-to-disc-2013-10-18-music-32713

Can't say I know those particular recordings, just going by the label. The Chesky recordings were great and if you can find Malcolm Arnold on Lyrita, snatch it. I lost all those old classical records in a flood, and now I just have some miscellaneous pieces on regular labels.
neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #392 on:** 23 Oct 2013, 07:08 pm »

Ok Neo, I appreciate the help. Now here's the $ 64000 question: what is the problem when it's not dialed in? I'd really appreciate as much help as you can give me here as I feel like I'm on the precipice of understanding. Spare no words!

Thanks,
Don

neobop · « **Reply #393 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 01:04 am »

What's the problem when not dialed in? You said spare no words, but two words will really suffice - harmonics and tonality.

Assuming alignment and azimuth are good, SRA - arm height makes a dramatic difference, at least for me. All the fuss about 92 degrees doesn't include all records. Matter of fact, the original recommendation was 91 degrees and Fremer changed it to 92. Top to bottom balance is a good indicator. Can I hear the bass? Can I hear the cymbals and do they sound right? Problem is, some records are bright and some are dull. Harmonics and basic tonality will tell you if it's right.

Many people are in the set and forget school, and one setting can work for most pressings, but, although many records seem to require no change, some do and sound much better when dialed in. I've found this especially true with classical music. There's a sticky up top that discussed this and has some good links for set-up and evaluation. There's really one indispensable trick - knowing what live acoustic instruments sound like.
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=112433.0

neo

Grbluen · « **Reply #394 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 01:47 am »

Gotcha

dlaloum · « **Reply #395 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 03:19 am »

Quote from: neobop on 24 Oct 2013, 01:04 am

There's really one indispensable trick - knowing what live acoustic instruments sound like.

Uhuh - Oh Yeah...

And if I might add another proviso - UNAMPLIFIED live acoustic instruments.... as the miking and amping process often changes (totally messes up really!) the sound...

Recently heard a small group playing acoustic middle eastern with a twist - Oud (middle eastern lute), darbouka (drum) and accordion - fabulous small trio in a small space.....

Grbluen · « **Reply #396 on:** 24 Oct 2013, 09:21 am »

Dl,
There's the rub. I have recordings that are all over the map. Although I have the ability to adjust vta, I certainly can't see myself adjusting for different recordings. Anyhoo, I think I've landed in a pretty good spot. I can life with the choices I've made and my system should be easily maintainable for the years to come!
Thanks all!

neobop · « **Reply #397 on:** 25 Oct 2013, 02:22 pm »

"There's the rub. I have recordings that are all over the map."

Although some pressings require a change in VTA/SRA to sound right, it seems to me that most don't. Some evenings I'll play two or three records and not have to bother getting up and adjusting arm height. Many of the records that benefit from height adjustment are of similar vintage or label and one correction could be good for many records. Having VTA on-the-fly makes it easy. You can hear the difference immediately, and it - the sound will snap into place when you find the "G" (good) spot. Focus and tone/harmonics will mimic real instruments.

Even without on-the-fly VTA, once you've found that height where most records sound right, make a small mark on the arm pillar so you can come back there easily if you change it. Most corrections require a very small adjustment. Even though theoretically, cutting angles can vary as much as around five degrees, it rarely takes more than a mm or two of height adjustment to correct. I don't know exactly why, but you can hear it easily when you experiment. Having the arm too high will result in third order harmonic distortion, strident treble, loss of bass. Too low is more benign and usually dull with distant treble and emphasized bass.

Cart adjustment is an evolving process. When you make a change in one parameter, you have to check the others. Changing arm height will affect alignment. If your alignment is good at the height where most records sound right, then a temporary change of a millimeter or part of a millimeter, won't be a problem. The alignment change is so small it's imperceptible or nearly so. The longer the arm, the less alignment will change, but it takes more height adjustment to affect the same change as on a shorter arm.
neo

neobop · « **Reply #398 on:** 6 Nov 2013, 04:01 am »

Just saw a new cart from AT, at least the listing says it's new. The 100E was a Japanese only model, now a US model. That's the $80 one with the straight cantilever and a bonded .3 x .7. It has the same generator as the 150MLX. The new one is the 5V - looks like the old Signet body like the 7V. Specs are nearly identical to the 150/100 except output is 5mV. Comes with a .6 mil spherical which should be good for mono records. All you need is a nice stylus for stereo. Looks like the AT designers read the forums. These new models have low inductance like we've been saying for a long time now.
http://www.lpgear.com/product/AT5V.html

neo

dlaloum · « **Reply #399 on:** 6 Nov 2013, 11:16 am »

Apparently there is a 5, 7 and 9 in this series in Japan....

But I believe someone posted that the cantilever angle is different on these - after trying a cantilever transfer... so they may not be quite the direct relatives to the AT120/150 that we think they are...

Another minor thing - low inductance is only useful if the effective tip mass is very low... using low inductance with a lower end stylus merely exposes its flaws...

I spent quite a while chasing the low inductance holy grail - but I am coming around to high inductance models - I think low inductance ultimately only works with exotic tube cantilevers such as V15VMR, EPC100/205 - very low mass.

once the mass starts to rise you either have to raise the capacitance or live with the flaws of a higher mass cantilever (rising high end)

At some stage I should work backwards from the ATN152LP measurements and work out what the "perfect" inductance/capacitance match for it would be.... (I never got around to doing a full set of measurements for the 152...) - I expect it wouid be similar to the ATN150

But my experiments with the SAS strongly indicate that it is better suited to higher inductance bodies.... such as the V15III & V15IV and that it requires a lot of capacitance on a V15V to bring it into line (like 700pf)

So I am not so sure that the AT100 low inductance body is such a bargain....

bye for now

David