Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond

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neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #260 on: 8 Jul 2013, 06:33 pm »
Dlaloum, Neobop,

I went very slowly and did not  in anyway, try  to change the angle of the cantilever.  I remembering Timeltel mentioning the same thing when he did his AT13Ea Frankenstein. Just making adjustments in VTA using arm height.   I'm beginning to think that the cantilever material is just a very small part of the overall design.  I have always thought beryllium or borron cantilevered cartridges were the best, but I am now beginning to understand that perhaps it's not just the material, but how it is executed in the design. A short, thin, tapered aluminum cantilever with a quality ML tip, can be better than either a beryllium or boron cantilever. Perhaps it's the care and execution of the design that matters most.
Just my 2 cents!

Best regards to both of you,
Don

Funny how that works out.  The ATN150MLX sounds much better in the 440 or 150 (I presume), and the ATN440MLa is better in the CA.  David always talked about cantilever resonances and interaction with frequency response and electrical parameters, but voicing a cart is even more complex.  I think cantilever design is a big part.  Mass, rigidity, and flexibility determine much of what we perceive to be the "character" of the sound.  A tapered alum cantilever will generally react more to groove modulations and might sound more robust rather than controlled. The orig Agon review of the Virtuoso had a Soundsmith level 1 / tapered alum-nude elliptical.   

Ironically, my first transplant was a 440MLa into a 95 plug.  It looked perfect.  I had the cart mounted in a removable headshell.  I was headed for the turntable when the phone rang.  It slipped out of my hand and landed wrong side down.    :duh:

Glad you got it together Griff.  Makes it a little easier for me.

Regards,
neo

griffithds

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #261 on: 10 Jul 2013, 01:12 am »
Neo, Dlaloum,

A few posts back, I mentioned that I was going to use the new AT150MLX stylus and install in its original body, thereby allowing me to use the AT160ML stylus I had in that body (the AT150MLX body), for transplanting purposes.   After careful comparison between the AT160ML styli and the AT150MLX styli, I decided not to risk damaging the AT160ML stylus.  It is a better styli than the AT150MLX. The highest frequency are more extended and a little cleaner. Noticeable is the best way to define the difference.  This surprised me.  I had thought that they were probably the same cantilever/stylus. Gold coated cantilever and all!

Regards,
Don

dlaloum

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #262 on: 10 Jul 2013, 03:49 am »
Curious - just checked the specs - they are even the same compliance...

You may simply have lucked onto a better exemplar?

I have 3 Jico SAS styli which I have measure frequency response for up to 50kHz...

Jico claims them to be identical - the F/R plot says otherwise, with one stylus in particular being an "outlier"

But the better two styli are similar enough that short of detail measurement with the right tools, telling them apart would be well nigh impossible.



neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #264 on: 10 Jul 2013, 05:53 pm »
I thought the 160 was beryllium and the 150 boron.

That would explain the preference.

neo

griffithds

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #265 on: 10 Jul 2013, 08:40 pm »
Neobop,

I had not noticed but you are correct. One is Beryllium and the other Boron. My preference has always been Beryllium. The fact that Axel (the German re tipper), does a Beryllium cantilever  is sort of the reason I hesitate sending something to SS.
I must admit that this 160Ml is my all time favorite cantilever/stylus.  Even better ( to me), than the AT155/152MLa!  I wish I had the extra funds to buy and store up a few before their gone forever.
Thanks Neo, for clearing that up.

Best regards,
Don

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #266 on: 11 Jul 2013, 12:36 am »
Griff,
Did you try the ATN160 on the 150 (or 100) body?  Seems to me that's the best 100 series body made today.  The 160 motor is the same as the 440.

It would also fit later Signets, TK7LCa etc. 

neo


glrickaby

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #267 on: 11 Jul 2013, 01:56 am »
Midst this isoteric conversation, I removed the Garrottstein from my 1228 and remounted my AT95HE, Blue with the
black dot on the shaft (Jico?) and am playing some Dvorak, quite impressed with the top to bottom sound including
obscure details and signal to noise ratio (perhaps the recording and not the stylus). I really can't tell my 3400 and 95
bodies apart but from where the volume knob is, think I have the lower output 95....Having sold my Virtuoso body(s),
I can only go from memory rather than a direct comparison. Guess I wouldn't have sold them if they had sounded
better. Honestly, the Shibata stylus I transplanted on one may have had a hair more detail, but this unit now playing
is way above its class and perhaps the reason Stereophile has listed it in the past on the class 4 list, even with the
oem (green) stylus. My AT7V may have slightly more bottom but again is a notch or two up in the food chain......
Incidently, talking about shaft material boron etc., I notice my Goldring 2200-2300s have a "coated" or "plated"
shaft which is apparently done to assume more exotic qualities? The Vendor ads show this, but nothing in the
brochure furnished with the unit... Back to the AT95, it would be interesting if someone could duplicate the 3 piece
wooden CA block and sell it as a kit for the 95. AT might have to put on another line of production!

griffithds

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #268 on: 11 Jul 2013, 03:24 am »
Neo,

Are you sure about that AT160 generator being  the same as the 440?  I ask because I have been looking for a AT160 body!
They're just not out there. I have both of the 440 bodies, the ML and the MLa.  I have only ran the AT160 ML stylus on the AT 150MLX body. so when you say, "have I tried it on the 150", I must reply that I have "only" ran it on the 150.  I bought the AT160 (to replace the 90 degree bent original 150MLX stylus), when I accidently caught the edge of the record while cueing up. I do have a Signet TK 7CLa with original stylus and  Neo, I like it just the way it is! (grin)

Regards,
Don

apollophono

Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #269 on: 11 Jul 2013, 08:58 am »
Going to jump in now as I have some history with the AT95e Linn Sondek modified.  It was
said that they used to use super glue on the internals or some such.  I copied a thread from one
of the Linn forums that states exactly what they did.  Anyway, I can say that mounted on a
Rega Planar 2 that was mounted on a weight bearing wall it sounded the best I've ever heard.
It sounded like live music to me.  I've never been able to duplicate it even with better
equipment.  I was only able to enjoy my audio nirvana for a few weeks as I got married and
had children.  I'm still searching for that nirvana.  What amazes me is the equipment I had
was cheap.  A Hafler DH101 pre, DH220 amp, the above mentioned Rega TT, Audioquest
speaker cable ~30ft. and some cheapo interconnects.  Oh yea Cervin Vega speakers.  Now
there was nothing "HiFi" about any of those pieces yet I was in audio nirvana.  To this day I
can't figure out what was so special about any of those pieces or the set up.  I still think
it has to do with isolating the Rega TT on the load bearing wall and the fact that all I did was
swap the direction of one speaker cable for everything to come together and create this nirvana
I once enjoyed.  Hence I believe that cable direction matters and Linn did have a finger on the
pulse of what it takes to make music.  To even further affirm my belief I remember that I was
only able to turn up the volume to 12:00 with listener fatigue soon setting in.  After I turned
one speaker cable around I knew it immediately and was able to turn the volume up to 3:00
or more and even stepping outside live music seemed to be eminating from my living room. 
Sorry for the ramble.  Just trying to duplicate the nirvana I had before and maybe hopefully
learn something to pass along to others on how it can be done for cheap.   :thumb:

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #270 on: 11 Jul 2013, 09:37 am »
Hi GL,
Remind me please, what stylus in your Garrottstein, a Shure?

I have my modified 95/Jico HE set up and it sounds really nice.  I know exactly what you mean.

I've never been partial to Goldring carts, but I'm not really that familiar with most of them.  The 2200/2300 are the current models?
I did hear the old top of the MM line (1042?) once and it had a nice sound in that set-up.  The 2300 has a tapered alum cantilever w/coating?  What color is the coating, silver?

The AT tops are one piece and ebony is the wood of choice.  It would be a ton of work to make tops for them.  I suspect you would need a mini CNC type  machine to do it right.  It would be a nice project, but without the right tools it might be easier to just by a used Marantz/CA.
neo
 


neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #271 on: 11 Jul 2013, 10:01 am »
Neo,

Are you sure about that AT160 generator being  the same as the 440?  I ask because I have been looking for a AT160 body!
They're just not out there. I have both of the 440 bodies, the ML and the MLa.  I have only ran the AT160 ML stylus on the AT 150MLX body. so when you say, "have I tried it on the 150", I must reply that I have "only" ran it on the 150.  I bought the AT160 (to replace the 90 degree bent original 150MLX stylus), when I accidently caught the edge of the record while cueing up. I do have a Signet TK 7CLa with original stylus and  Neo, I like it just the way it is! (grin)

Regards,
Don

Griff,
Yep, 5.0mV, 490mH, 3.2Kohm.  Don't waste your time and money.  The following carts (and more),  have identical specs:
440, 120E, 125LC, 130E, 132EP, 140LC, 142LP, 152LP (ML), 155LC, 160ML, 450.  This was the go-to HO motor for many moons at AT.

The carts with ML preceding the number, ML150, ML170 are different - closer to the 150MLX body - 4mV, 2.5Kohm.  The 150MLX is slightly better with 2.3Kohm, 350mH, methinks.  Admittedly, there's almost no difference, except the cantilever.  I think you probably already have the best generators AT ever made which includes CA and the older 500/550 ohm models.
neo

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #272 on: 11 Jul 2013, 10:32 am »
Going to jump in now as I have some history with the AT95e Linn Sondek modified.  It was
said that they used to use super glue on the internals or some such.  I copied a thread from one
of the Linn forums that states exactly what they did.  Anyway, I can say that mounted on a
Rega Planar 2 that was mounted on a weight bearing wall it sounded the best I've ever heard.
It sounded like live music to me.  I've never been able to duplicate it even with better
equipment.  I was only able to enjoy my audio nirvana for a few weeks as I got married and
had children.  I'm still searching for that nirvana.  What amazes me is the equipment I had
was cheap.  A Hafler DH101 pre, DH220 amp, the above mentioned Rega TT, Audioquest
speaker cable ~30ft. and some cheapo interconnects.  Oh yea Cervin Vega speakers.  Now
there was nothing "HiFi" about any of those pieces yet I was in audio nirvana.  To this day I
can't figure out what was so special about any of those pieces or the set up.  I still think
it has to do with isolating the Rega TT on the load bearing wall and the fact that all I did was
swap the direction of one speaker cable for everything to come together and create this nirvana
I once enjoyed.  Hence I believe that cable direction matters and Linn did have a finger on the
pulse of what it takes to make music.  To even further affirm my belief I remember that I was
only able to turn up the volume to 12:00 with listener fatigue soon setting in.  After I turned
one speaker cable around I knew it immediately and was able to turn the volume up to 3:00
or more and even stepping outside live music seemed to be eminating from my living room. 
Sorry for the ramble.  Just trying to duplicate the nirvana I had before and maybe hopefully
learn something to pass along to others on how it can be done for cheap.   :thumb:

Hi Apollo P,
Interesting recollection.  I don't know all that much about Linn MM carts, except we used to give away K9 to sell a table.  I'd be interested in the info on that thread.  My 95 is partially potted with epoxy - seemed to help. 

Most of the Linn MMs are not the same as a 95.  The K5, K18 have 4.5mV out.  The 95 is 3.5mV.  I don't know the complete specs of the Linn carts so I can't run down theoretical differences.  AT uses the 3400 (95) body as their OEM vehicle, but generators are custom made to order, like CA.

Welcome to the thread.  Looking forward to hearing about Linn mods.
neo

dlaloum

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #273 on: 11 Jul 2013, 12:18 pm »
Here are the inductances and DC resistances I have measured from a range of AT bodies:

Model          Resist   Induct (mH)
Signet TK9E   227.75   87.6
AT25           238.5   87.625
Signet TK10   239.75   84.675
Signet TK9E   244.75   87.9
DR250         395   456.5
AT3472PS    402.5   435.05
AT3482P       403   428
DR200E        408.5   421
AT101P         408.5   427.7
Unlabelled Black   411   464.5
Akai PC-35   412   464.5
AT71e         421.75   448.5
Sanyo MG-44J     424   442
PT800          425.25   420
AT14Sa         453.75   458
AT14S         464.75   363
AT4030LC               467.5   457
AT12Sa       472.25   420
AT-VM8hi    473.75   433
AT20SLa      475.5   453.05
AT20SLa (2nd)   476   450.5
AT12Sa (AT777)   480   445.5
Signet TK7su   486.5   447.5
MG35V        486.5   490.5
AT150ea       487.5   358
AT105         515.5   575.5
AT110e       516.5   603
RX1500       631   511
AT216EP     640.05   594
AT216EP     649.75   559.5
AT216EP     653.5   590
AT190EP       656.5   548
Realistic RX1500   657   513.5
AT201P                  659   542
AT99sx                  659.5   527.5
AT212ep                  665.5   528
SLT96E                  672   521.5
Signet TK4Ep   681.5   521.5
AKAI PC-7   683   559
Realistic RX1500   692.5   543.75
AT440MLa   772.5   479.5
AT142LP                  780.25   569.25
Signet TK6EP   794   566
AT13ea                  1171.5   1060
AT13ea                  1213.5   1005.75
AT960X                  1219.5   1035

griffithds

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #274 on: 11 Jul 2013, 02:00 pm »
Dlaloum,

Damn, you have been a busy man! (grin)

At first it appears to me that the lower Risist/Induct cartridges are the better (higher  performance),models, but there are a few that jump out and surprise me.  The AT 13ea which is rather highly though of as well as  the 440MLa. There must be other factors involved that prevents the previous statement from being a hard and set rule of design?

glrickaby

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #275 on: 11 Jul 2013, 02:43 pm »
Neo- The Goldring 2300 has a silver color shaft coating. My Garrottstein is a Garrott K-2 body which except for minor trim,
is identical to the Excel body. The Excel S700ER  .2 x .8 fits either body=hence a Garrottstein. I also have an Excel body
and really cannot tell any difference with the Garrott. Apparently the Garrott Bros. (or successors) wanted a more modest
priced line so the K 1-2-3 series was developed i.e. purchased from Excel. Don't know about the Garrott styli. I broke a
K-2 stylus and didn't want to spend $165 for a replacement from Australia so then figured out the Excel connection. Also
some Shure styli will fit the Excel/Garrott bodies......Regarding the previous comment about the Linn K-9, believe it has
the shorter AT body like the CA's but on output, would be the same as the AT3400 which is 4.5 instead of the 3.5 AT95.
Also the AT95 stylus will fit the K-9 but ends up with a little "shelf" on front unless the plastic is trimmed.

apollophono

Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #276 on: 11 Jul 2013, 08:23 pm »
NeoBop,
Here is the thread I found from the Linn forum


VERY interesting info on the K9, Colin. I had not realised how 'special' it was. Presumably the Basik cartridge was a rebadged AT95e? What about the K5 - had that been turbo charged too?

CJ
[/quote]

Hi

The Linn Basik cartridge that was originally free with the old S shape Linn LVV arm was an Audio Technica below the AT95E.It only had a conical and not eliptical stylus so was a little bit "rough and ready".The Basik cartridge was designed as a throwaway and was made to get an LP12 up and running as cheaply as possible.Swapping the yellow stylus over to the green AT95E stylus was a good move it the day and gave better sound.Both used a plastic body which could only be lightly tightened before deformation.A way of boosting performance was to fill the AT95's coil can with superglue and also superglue on the housing and the stylus.This made a big difference as it made for a much more rigid assembly allowing more detail and greater dynamic range.When the stylus wore out you threw the whole thing away as it was cheap anyway.I seem to recall that a Linn Basik cartridge was around £10.00 and an AT95E was around £20.00.The K9 was more like £50.00 when first launched in the early 80's.

The K5 came out some years later at around half the price of the K9 and had a plastic moulded housing for the coil "can" rather than the solid metal block the K9 used.It also had a cheaper "rondel" mount elliptical stylus.At some point the solid K9 housing became unavailable and so late K9's used the K5 body.The later K18 was a much more expensive cartridge than the 9 and had a tapered cantilever and a small allen bolt to give greater mechanical coupling and rigidity.Unfortunately the K18 was a very inconsistent cartridge and many sounded out of tune and lacking involvement.This was down to the long cantilever and the compliance of the suspension and Linn later addressed the problem with the K18 mk2 red stylus which had a laminated suspension with different rubber.

Unfortunately Audio Technica stopped making cartridges for Linn in around 1996.Don't know why but it was not good news as we were very happy with them. To find a replacement we listened to many cartridges at that time.Some did not play the tune and were uninvolving.Some would not fit and could not be aligned or were too light or heavy to balance out .Several were not shielded enough and so hum could be present near the centre of an LP as the magnetic field from the motor induced a signal in the cartridge coils.Several sounded dull or too bright because the compliance was unsuited .Many were pliable and not rigid with "bendysnap" construction and so did not have the clarity ,detail and dynamic range we required as all of the tonearms concept of rigidity was effectively neutered.Together with many retailers we settled on the Dynavector 20X which has rigid construction and works well in Linn arms.John Burns ,who distributes Dynavector in the UK actually worked at Linn for many years and the DV20 came about as he saw the opportunity to help develop a cartridge suited for the vacancy left by the K9.The Adikt was released some years after the K9 was discontinued and now that the DV20 £450.00, the Adikt is nearer to the price many are prepared for if changing from a K9.

Regards.

Colin Macey. WYSAH Beaconsfield.

www.whatyouseeandhear.com
www.wysah.com

I find it interesting they thought of doing that.  I've heard that the Adikt is a Goldring modified for Linn's specifications.
Hope that help.

Regards  Mike

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #277 on: 11 Jul 2013, 09:51 pm »
Dlaloum,

Damn, you have been a busy man! (grin)

At first it appears to me that the lower Risist/Induct cartridges are the better (higher  performance),models, but there are a few that jump out and surprise me.  The AT 13ea which is rather highly though of as well as  the 440MLa. There must be other factors involved that prevents the previous statement from being a hard and set rule of design?

Griff,
Yes it's interesting, especially the inductance figures.  It seems that the relationship between resistance and impedance is more important than just resistance.  For example, the 13Ea has impedance of 1200 ohms.  The 440ML is 3.2K.  Also, impedance is calculated at standard 1KHz frequency.  I imagine a frequency/resistance chart could be made like one for a speaker driver. 

To be honest, I don't fully understand it.  With the high inductance of the 13Ea why isn't impedance higher?  Impedance factors in reactance - inductance and capacitance.    :dunno:

neo

neobop

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #278 on: 12 Jul 2013, 01:37 am »
NeoBop,
Here is the thread I found from the Linn forum


VERY interesting info on the K9, Colin. I had not realised how 'special' it was. Presumably the Basik cartridge was a rebadged AT95e? What about the K5 - had that been turbo charged too?

CJ


Hi

The Linn Basik cartridge that was originally free with the old S shape Linn LVV arm was an Audio Technica below the AT95E.It only had a conical and not eliptical stylus so was a little bit "rough and ready".The Basik cartridge was designed as a throwaway and was made to get an LP12 up and running as cheaply as possible.Swapping the yellow stylus over to the green AT95E stylus was a good move it the day and gave better sound.Both used a plastic body which could only be lightly tightened before deformation.A way of boosting performance was to fill the AT95's coil can with superglue and also superglue on the housing and the stylus.This made a big difference as it made for a much more rigid assembly allowing more detail and greater dynamic range.When the stylus wore out you threw the whole thing away as it was cheap anyway.I seem to recall that a Linn Basik cartridge was around £10.00 and an AT95E was around £20.00.The K9 was more like £50.00 when first launched in the early 80's.

The K5 came out some years later at around half the price of the K9 and had a plastic moulded housing for the coil "can" rather than the solid metal block the K9 used.It also had a cheaper "rondel" mount elliptical stylus.At some point the solid K9 housing became unavailable and so late K9's used the K5 body.The later K18 was a much more expensive cartridge than the 9 and had a tapered cantilever and a small allen bolt to give greater mechanical coupling and rigidity.Unfortunately the K18 was a very inconsistent cartridge and many sounded out of tune and lacking involvement.This was down to the long cantilever and the compliance of the suspension and Linn later addressed the problem with the K18 mk2 red stylus which had a laminated suspension with different rubber.

Unfortunately Audio Technica stopped making cartridges for Linn in around 1996.Don't know why but it was not good news as we were very happy with them. To find a replacement we listened to many cartridges at that time.Some did not play the tune and were uninvolving.Some would not fit and could not be aligned or were too light or heavy to balance out .Several were not shielded enough and so hum could be present near the centre of an LP as the magnetic field from the motor induced a signal in the cartridge coils.Several sounded dull or too bright because the compliance was unsuited .Many were pliable and not rigid with "bendysnap" construction and so did not have the clarity ,detail and dynamic range we required as all of the tonearms concept of rigidity was effectively neutered.Together with many retailers we settled on the Dynavector 20X which has rigid construction and works well in Linn arms.John Burns ,who distributes Dynavector in the UK actually worked at Linn for many years and the DV20 came about as he saw the opportunity to help develop a cartridge suited for the vacancy left by the K9.The Adikt was released some years after the K9 was discontinued and now that the DV20 £450.00, the Adikt is nearer to the price many are prepared for if changing from a K9.

Regards.

Colin Macey. WYSAH Beaconsfield.

www.whatyouseeandhear.com
www.wysah.com

I find it interesting they thought of doing that.  I've heard that the Adikt is a Goldring modified for Linn's specifications.
Hope that help.

Regards  Mike

Mike, thanks for posting that. 

Before the post it was alluded, there was something "special" about the K9.  Is this super glue treatment the turbocharge?

neo

glrickaby

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Re: Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond
« Reply #279 on: 15 Jul 2013, 11:59 pm »
Though my main TT is a Rega P3/2000 with upgrades, I've developed a special fondness for a Dual 1228 on which the platter spins
a while after shutoff. Being a changer, I can play a few records without having to get up and change etc., plus it shuts itself off.
I was never a believer that cables made much difference in sound and copper is copper. I just received an Audioquest Evergreen
1 meter RCA/RCA to try and see if there really was any difference? This is the bottom feeder of the line @$35 free shipping from
that giant of the internet....Much to my surprise, I do notice a difference. There is more definition and "presence" to the sound!
The current mount is a DL110 but I'm sure this difference will carry forward to my AT95HE,Goldrings,Shures,Garrotts and Grados.
Either I've learned something here or the Evergreen Cable changed impedance-resistance etc., In any case, I'm enjoying this
tweek in sound and hope my cartridge swapping (easy if you have enough Dual carriers) will continue to enhance the experience.
As good as a Boron shaft what?