[neobop]

I getting the last word in. 
No more confrontation between the two of you. 
We can see the big picture. 
You two don't have to try to convince anything.
Petulance at your ages!  C'mon.
Any more and I am sending this thread to quarantine.

Thank you.
neo

[smctigue]

Hey all, I'm new here to the site but have been an avid vinyl aficionado for many years, and have owned and used several different types of TTs over the years. What caught my eye was all the talk of the JVC Z1 carts. I Just acquired a JVC JL-F50 TT, for my garage setup, with one of the Z1-S carts on it and what looks to be a brown stylus. I have never seen or heard of one of these carts before. I would like to salvage the cart and just replace the stylus. I was reading through the sixty-some-odd pages of this thread and I see a lot of talk about the Jico and SAS styli that seem to be the best replacement for the cart. I've looked on Jico's site as well as a few others and cannot find the SAS anywhere. Unless of course I am searching under the wrong name. Can anyone steer me in the right direction on where to find a decently priced replacement stylus? I see that several people like the sound of this cart, and I would like to give it a try.

Thanks for any help, and damn glad to be here!

Jico just announced that they are discontinuing the SAS, very sad news. They did mention that they are working on a replacement however.

[neobop]

Hey all, I'm new here to the site but have been an avid vinyl aficionado for many years, and have owned and used several different types of TTs over the years. What caught my eye was all the talk of the JVC Z1 carts. I Just acquired a JVC JL-F50 TT, for my garage setup, with one of the Z1-S carts on it and what looks to be a brown stylus. I have never seen or heard of one of these carts before. I would like to salvage the cart and just replace the stylus. I was reading through the sixty-some-odd pages of this thread and I see a lot of talk about the Jico and SAS styli that seem to be the best replacement for the cart. I've looked on Jico's site as well as a few others and cannot find the SAS anywhere. Unless of course I am searching under the wrong name. Can anyone steer me in the right direction on where to find a decently priced replacement stylus? I see that several people like the sound of this cart, and I would like to give it a try.

Thanks for any help, and damn glad to be here!

Hi Davron94,
Welcome to vinyl circle where no stone is left unturned.

The SAS stylus has been discontinued.  It's supposed to be reintroduced, but exactly when is unknown.   The Z1 with a Jico elliptical is a decent, musical cart, but doesn't have the speed or finesse as with the SAS.   The current selection of Jico Z1 styli are listed under Victor, here:
http://www.jico-stylus.com/index.php?cPath=8&sort=2a&page=2

The shibata looks interesting, but I haven't tried it.  My Z1 SAS was $133.  I suspect future pricing will be more, but that's a guess. 
neo

[neobop]

Some people might be interested in this PDF - test reports of 5 current carts.  Text is in German, but you should be able to figure out most specs, and the German photos and FR plots are easily translated.   

https://www.fastaudio.com/workspace/media/downloads/pdf-auf-die-spitze-getrieben_stp_04_14_046_054.pdf

neo

[GentleBender]

GB,
Maybe this can help you get there sooner.  User reports say this is every bit as good as a 16.5. 
http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649240538-canadian-made-rcm-3d-printed-parts-you-supply-the-shopvac/

The wand will accommodate 2 sizes of vac hose and has a pressure release valve to adjust suction.
neo

This little unit arrived Wednesday and the seller was great to work with. I had to wait for my MoFi sleeves to show up yesterday and cleaned two records to test  DIY solution and the results were outstanding. I wasn't expecting such an amazing improvement. Here is a link to the solution I used http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/record-cleaning-youre-doing-it-wrong.689430/. I have more than enough of the Triton X100 if you want to try it.

[neobop]

GB,
We tell people about results of cleaning records properly, but until they hear it for themselves it's just a concept.  Glad it's working out.

Thanks for the kind offer of some Triton X100.  If I start mixing my own I'll be in touch.

Let us know when you're getting ready for that cart upgrade.  Maybe we can help figure it out.
Regards,
neo

[Toni Rambold]

Some people might be interested in this PDF - test reports of 5 current carts.  Text is in German, but you should be able to figure out most specs, and the German photos and FR plots are easily translated.   

https://www.fastaudio.com/workspace/media/downloads/pdf-auf-die-spitze-getrieben_stp_04_14_046_054.pdf

neo

Hallo neo,

dies ist ein Test aus der Zeitschrift stereoplay vom April 2014. Insgesamt wurden 12
Tonabnehmer getestet. Fastaudio ist der Lyra-Vertrieb in Deutschland und deshalb ist dieser Test auch auf deren Webseite zu finden.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen - Toni

[neobop]

Hi Toni and those reading this,

The other day when I stumbled on the Stereoplay magazine test reports in the link (above), I was late and in a hurry but I wanted to post the link.  The PDF is actually tests of a dozen carts up to 6K euros.

Near the end of the PDF is the new Lyra Etna.  This cart comes in just under Atlas in their line up and some people say they prefer it. 

Some of you might remember Dlaloum's comments about frequency response plots in HFN or tests using their test record and/or software, as being rolled off above 15KHz ?  There's no doubt about that and just as those plots look rolled, the Stereoplay plots look bright.  If you compare the same cart tested by the different facilities, there is a substantial difference.  Without the same sample of a model being tested it's impossible to be exact, but it looks like this difference can be as much as +/- 6 or 7dB.   This means that total difference could be as much as 12 or 14dB, but please don't assume this is the case in all instances.  I think Stereoplay is more accurate but their test results look brighter in the high end above 10K.

In each test there's a list of specs under the plots.  I'm not fluent in German, but Etna tracking ability is tested at 120um !!   
Holy cannon shots Batman, does it get any better?
neo

[davron94]

GB,
We tell people about results of cleaning records properly, but until they hear it for themselves it's just a concept.  Glad it's working out.

Thanks for the kind offer of some Triton X100.  If I start mixing my own I'll be in touch.

Let us know when you're getting ready for that cart upgrade.  Maybe we can help figure it out.
Regards,
neo

I've been using the triton X100 (.5% with 5% IPA in distilled water) for about 4 months now with great results. No Static whatsoever, and gives the records a good deep cleaning. I do a double rinse with distilled water after cleaning also.

[davron94]

Hi Davron94,
Welcome to vinyl circle where no stone is left unturned.

The SAS stylus has been discontinued.  It's supposed to be reintroduced, but exactly when is unknown.   The Z1 with a Jico elliptical is a decent, musical cart, but doesn't have the speed or finesse as with the SAS.   The current selection of Jico Z1 styli are listed under Victor, here:
http://www.jico-stylus.com/index.php?cPath=8&sort=2a&page=2

The shibata looks interesting, but I haven't tried it.  My Z1 SAS was $133.  I suspect future pricing will be more, but that's a guess. 
neo

Thanks for the info Neobop! So does this mean that there are no SAS styli left anywhere for the Z1?

[neobop]

Hi Davron,
I doubt if you'll be able to find one.  Not every stylus store carried SAS, and those like LpGear who had some SAS never carried JVC SAS, and they're sold out of the others. 
If you want a decent stylus to get it going, you can get one of those .3 x .7 mil elliptical for < $35 at Turntable Needles or Lp Gear.  I had to get my SAS from Jico in Japan.  I don't know what else to tell you except what's already posted - the Z1E is an unpretentious musical cart.  It has a nice presentation and resolution, but isn't the last word. 

No one knows when Jico will offer a new version SAS.  They're nude tips on a boron cantilever so it might take Jico a couple of months to get the most popular models in stock.  Then they're made in batches according to what's been ordered.  I waited 3 weeks.  I'd bet they have the new ones for sale by this summer.
neo

[neobop]

This is interesting:
I went to FastAudio site (German Lyra) and they have Etna tracking spec at 80um.  Abtastfähigkeit: 80 μm  That's sensing capability.
https://www.fastaudio.com/produkte/phono/etna/

Go back to the Stereoplay PDF and the spec for all the carts seems optimistic, to put it mildly.  Then I copy (by hand) the Stereoplay word used for the spec, "Tiefenabtastfahigkeit", and the translator says I must be kidding.   

Maybe I copied wrong, but there's nothing else I can think of, it could be.  So, what's up with this? 
It's obviously a tracking spec.  Could Lyra be that conservative with their spec?  No.  My 8 ball says, "No Way Try Again".  Looking at the other carts on Stereoplay, could a Clearaudio Concept MM be 100um ?  I don't need an 8 ball for that one - subtract at least 20 to 25um from the MM spec.  That would put it closer to an Ortofon spec, but still leaves a discrepancy of 10 - 15um.   If we use Ortofon as a reference, I'd guess that Etna is more like > 90um.

I think this illustrates the danger of comparing specs and thinking it's an accurate measure, comparatively speaking.  Test records and software are not created equal.  It could be that tiefenalabastergkeit or whatever it is, means something entirely different.  Even if that's the case, it's still funny. 
http://www.amazon.com/Magic-8-Ball-Mini-Game/dp/B002NXU0AM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1456755488&sr=8-3&keywords=magic+8+ball

neo

[smctigue]

I am curious to know what type of loading (total) you guys who are using the Z1/SAS combo have settled on?

[Toni Rambold]

Hi neo,

Tiefenabtastfähigkeit means horizontal tracking ability of increasing amplitudes
at a low frequency of 300 Hz or 315 Hz.

low=deep=tief

I don't know what kind of test record they use.


Regards Toni

[neobop]

Hi Smctigue,

 I think everyone is close to 47K around 100 to 250pF total.  Sometimes Griff loads at 100K, but I'm not sure if that's with the Z1/SAS.  It might be only with a certain preamp, not sure.  Halcro went to 55K + 200pF additional with the X1 I believe. Might be 47K with Z1.

I load at 47 or 50K, 150 to 300pF total depending on phono stage.  I have one vintage preamp that's 50K/225pF.  More modern designs I use 50 to 100pF internal.  I tried 53K, but went back to 47K. 

Did you get one of these?  I thought you had those other 3, 20SLa etc.
neo

[neobop]

Hi neo,

Tiefenabtastfähigkeit means horizontal tracking ability of increasing amplitudes
at a low frequency of 300 Hz or 315 Hz.

low=deep=tief

I don't know what kind of test record they use.


Regards Toni

Hi Toni,
That's interesting, thanks for posting.  Ortofon tests at 315Hz.  I forget what record they use.  If Test Factory used 300Hz it could account for the difference in numbers.  Lower frequency means longer excursions. 

See anything in those reports that interests you ?
neo

[Toni Rambold]

I think these Stereoplay tests were made at 315 Hz too.

I don't know if Test Factory in Stuttgart still exists.

I stopped reading Stereoplay or Audio 20 years ago and the publishing company changed -
so I guess, they don't have a test laboratory anymore.


I'm a fan of Audio Technica MM carts (but they need the correct capacitance to provide a linear
frequency response between 20Hz - 20kHz)

A quarter of a century ago Robert E. Greene, TAS writer, Mathematics Professor at UCLA and
violinist wrote a TAS article in issue 72 about MMs and MCs which in my opinion is still valid
at present:

http://www.regonaudio.com/Stanton881AudioTechnicaATML70.html

[smctigue]

Hi Smctigue,

 I think everyone is close to 47K around 100 to 250pF total.  Sometimes Griff loads at 100K, but I'm not sure if that's with the Z1/SAS.  It might be only with a certain preamp, not sure.  Halcro went to 55K + 200pF additional with the X1 I believe. Might be 47K with Z1.

I load at 47 or 50K, 150 to 300pF total depending on phono stage.  I have one vintage preamp that's 50K/225pF.  More modern designs I use 50 to 100pF internal.  I tried 53K, but went back to 47K. 

Did you get one of these?  I thought you had those other 3, 20SLa etc.
neo

Neo, thanks for that. Yes, I have one now. Fun cartridge. Sounded a little thick at 47k/150pf total. I upped that to 47k/330pf but I think I over did it. I have a bunch of caps and resistors on the way to play with.

[neobop]

I think these Stereoplay tests were made at 315 Hz too.

I don't know if Test Factory in Stuttgart still exists.

I stopped reading Stereoplay or Audio 20 years ago and the publishing company changed -
so I guess, they don't have a test laboratory anymore.


I'm a fan of Audio Technica MM carts (but they need the correct capacitance to provide a linear
frequency response between 20Hz - 20kHz)

A quarter of a century ago Robert E. Greene, TAS writer, Mathematics Professor at UCLA and
violinist wrote a TAS article in issue 72 about MMs and MCs which in my opinion is still valid
at present:

http://www.regonaudio.com/Stanton881AudioTechnicaATML70.html

Toni,
If the Stereoplay tests were also at 315Hz, it illustrates the danger of comparing specs even more, but with that in mind this could easily turn into a comedy routine about fallacies of assumption.  Sometimes it isn't funny.

I didn't know of the Test Factory's existence until you mentioned it a couple of years ago, possibly on the Atlas thread? 
I was a regular reader of Audio magazine.  A few months into the year I would have parts of the annual equipment directory memorized.  I think they stopped publishing around the turn of the century.  I never had much respect for Stereophile or TAS, but for work I read some of each.  They were so corrupt it turned my stomach, they probably still are.  HP tried to see how much free high end equipment he could get and Stereofool was flat out dishonest.  Reviews were bought and sold and big advertisers got a nice return for their investment.  I remember around '88 Stereofool announced that reviewers were no longer allowed to accept gifts of their review samples, like that would address the problem.    Smoke and eyewash - set off some smoke canisters so the helicopter might land safely. 

I retired from being a turntable guy in '90.  I cofounded American Hybrid Technology with Dan Fanny, but we made no money at first and I needed to eat, so he bought me out.  I remember his telling me about going to Sea Cliff and blowing their minds with the AHT Non-Signature.  He later said it was the only 5 star component for 3 years running, or something like that.  Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person/component and I seriously doubt if there was any financial incentive involved.   When I first heard the phono stage I was still working retail and nothing else came close - fastest, cleanest, most neutral stage East or West of the Pecos.  Made the Vendetta sound like a receiver from the '70s in comparison.  I kid you not.  When we measured the S/N it was off the chart.  It exceeded the test equipment, so Danny put it at 98dB @ any gain.  Max gain is 67dB w/supplied resistors. 

Later, some clown at Stereofool got ahold of a stripped down version to debunk the mystique.  The Non-Signature had Teflon boards with silver traces, mil spec chips (still current), regulators on the regulators, encapsulated space shuttle Vishay resistors ($60/ea. wholesale), a separate power supply which could power a 200w amp, and multiple output caps.  Every part was the absolute best.  The stripped down version had none of that and it was said to be a matter of taste as to preference with a favorite darling.  It might have been a CAT. 

Herron Audio wanted to buy the rights to the design when Danny got out of the biz.  He sold it to Walker and a new version is around $20K last I looked.

Of course there were bright spots with the mags, and thanks for the link to the classic article highlighting the 881 and 170ML.  Some of the writers for each mag were excellent.  I used to enjoy Anthony Cordesman's stuff, but not as much as his strategic defense analysis. 
neo

 

[smctigue]

Around '95 I bought an AHT Phono unit from a "reviewer". It wasn't the Non - Sig but the less expensive model. I remember it being VERY good. I sold it to finance the purchase of a Marantz 7C. I still regret selling it. I called Dan about a problem with the unit, he told me to come down to Jersey and he would take a look. He did the repair while I waited. Nice guy.