Image Depth?

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Brucemck

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #20 on: 1 Dec 2010, 07:01 pm »
Has anyone called to see how much they actually cost?

At the high end you could purchase a single four inch depth curved RPG panel for $420 (from Galen Carol Audio).  For $160/each you could purchase a single flat 2' by 2' RPG panel from B&H. Those are all binary diffusors.

For around $60/each you can purchase 1" by 2' by 4' fiberglass wrapped in some Guilford of Maine cloth.  Any of those would improve imaging.

Saturn94

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #21 on: 1 Dec 2010, 07:18 pm »
Have you ever tried throwing a soft thick blanket over the TV during critical listening sessions?

This wouldn't work for me as a long term solution for me, but I might try it just to see what effect it may have.  Perhaps it might motivate me to come up with a more "attractive" solution.

martyo

Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #22 on: 1 Dec 2010, 07:55 pm »
You will definately hear a difference. That is what I do. On the top shelf of the rack to the right of the TV is my blanket. Usually if it's not a music DVD, the blanket is over the TV. My speakers are over 2 feet in front of the TV.




Wayner

Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #23 on: 1 Dec 2010, 09:09 pm »
                  If a guy was to study the human anatomy of the ear, and ponder on it for a while, you might come to a couple of considerations as to the real nature of sound and the failings of all sound reproduction in general.
                The ear can do something that no microphone or loudspeaker can do, it can hear in phase and out of phase material at the same time. You may ask “how is this possible?” The answer lies in how the ear is constructed. Yes , the usual eardrum we all know behaves like a microphone, but the ear has also bone and sinus cavities that are also integrated into the act. This means that while the eardrum is hearing the usual sine wave pulse of sound and converting it into electrical signals, the bone structure is also transmitting information and converting that into electrical information. The real crutch is that the bone transmitted information can be out of phase with the eardrum information and because they are occurring on different physical planes, do not cancel each other out as with out of phase air bound sound waves.
                This mixture of in phase and out of phase sound, is what gives us humans the ability to pinpoint sound locations instantly. It actually creates a 3D vector in our minds and we can easily target the directionality of any sound source. If we were to get a head cold, these abilities are hampered as one of the vectors is lost and the ability to identify the source is retarded.
                How can a stereo system overcome this? The microphones used to record the information do have both elements of in phase and out of phase material transmitted to the recording medium, but the real suspect is the loudspeaker. Its divers can only move in one direction at any given moment, and most of the depth clues are in the lower frequencies. So how is the anti-phase material going to get transmitted within any particular cone movement? The only way to solve this problem is with time.
                As Jim has suggested, moving the speakers away from the rear wall is one way, moving them farther apart is another way. Moving the speaker away from the rear wall mirrors the rear radiation distance and then hence increases the “time” that the wave will reach a listener. The speaker cabinet also has an influence on this as the density of the cabinet material used will slow down the energy wave.
                Say we are sitting 8 feet from a speaker s front baffle that is only 1 foot away from the wall. Rear radiated sound will have 10 feet  to travel (one foot to the wall, 9 feet to the listener (not including other reflections)) and this is not enough time to recover out of phase sound. If we move the speaker farther out, say 4 feet, rear radiation will still have to travel 4 feet to the wall and then  9 feet to the listener, but the direct radiation is now only 5 feet away. We now have a more reasonable time shift between direct and rear radiated sound. This method is kind of fooling our ears into thinking that there is something much larger than it really is and we enjoy sound field depth. This is also why reverberation is used in musical recordings, to create the illusion of depth.   

Saturn94

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #24 on: 1 Dec 2010, 09:17 pm »
You will definately hear a difference. That is what I do. On the top shelf of the rack to the right of the TV is my blanket. Usually if it's not a music DVD, the blanket is over the TV. My speakers are over 2 feet in front of the TV.




I'll give it a try.  If you are hearing a difference in your setup I would think I would even more so since the front of my speakers are only 19" in front of the TV and the TV takes up most of the space between them.

mark funk

Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #25 on: 1 Dec 2010, 10:22 pm »
Boy, you sure can hear it! I have a 42" in between my speakers and I have a red blanket also for the tube.


                                                                                       :smoke:

catastrofe

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #26 on: 1 Dec 2010, 10:35 pm »
Boy, you sure can hear it! I have a 42" in between my speakers and I have a red blanket also for the tube.


                                                                                       :smoke:

Do red blankets affect the sound differently than other colored blankets?  What about a wet blanket?   :green:

I'm sure there's someone that will argue this point!

Sorry, couldn't resist. . .

Kinger

Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #27 on: 1 Dec 2010, 11:33 pm »
I think the only one to stay away from is an electric blanket as it could introduce a ground loop into your system :)

Saturn94

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #28 on: 2 Dec 2010, 05:04 pm »
I think the only one to stay away from is an electric blanket as it could introduce a ground loop into your system :)

Dang.....there goes that idea......thought it might sound warmer! :lol:

Sorry...couldn't resist.

Nuance

Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #29 on: 3 Dec 2010, 02:48 pm »
I guess if I really wanted to get fancy, I could mount the TV on the wall and put up retractable curtains to cover the TV, just like a old fashion movie theater. :D

That sounds a little extreme, but in my opinion it would be a genius move.  Seriously, that large glass surface between the speakers can certainly effect the sound.  I am in the same situation as you, and I sometimes lean two panels in front of the TV while listening to music; the difference is obvious to my ears, but it looks so silly and is totally un-practical (is that a word?).  Now the curtain idea... :D  Oh, and definitely mount the TV; it gave me a little more image depth, but YMMV.

Do red blankets affect the sound differently than other colored blankets?  What about a wet blanket?   :green:

I'm sure there's someone that will argue this point!

Sorry, couldn't resist. . .

I think the only one to stay away from is an electric blanket as it could introduce a ground loop into your system :)

Dang.....there goes that idea......thought it might sound warmer! :lol:

Sorry...couldn't resist.

LMAO!  Hilarious! :lol:

Saturn94

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #30 on: 3 Dec 2010, 03:43 pm »
That sounds a little extreme, but in my opinion it would be a genius move.  Seriously, that large glass surface between the speakers can certainly effect the sound.  I am in the same situation as you, and I sometimes lean two panels in front of the TV while listening to music; the difference is obvious to my ears, but it looks so silly and is totally un-practical (is that a word?).  Now the curtain idea... :D  Oh, and definitely mount the TV; it gave me a little more image depth, but YMMV.

LMAO!  Hilarious! :lol:

I'll give the blanket a try, but like you said, it looks silly and just doesn't work for me cosmetically.  If I notice much improvement I may pursue a more visually pleasing solution.

woodsyi

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #31 on: 3 Dec 2010, 03:57 pm »
The speaker positioning and covering reflective screen in between the speakers are very important.  I would also suggest that comb filtering from the back wall is messing up your stage depth.  I have about 10 ft behind my listening position and putting up a big diffuser on the back wall made a huge difference in imaging and establishing stage depth.  I would not do without it. 

Saturn94

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #32 on: 3 Dec 2010, 05:01 pm »
The speaker positioning and covering reflective screen in between the speakers are very important.  I would also suggest that comb filtering from the back wall is messing up your stage depth.  I have about 10 ft behind my listening position and putting up a big diffuser on the back wall made a huge difference in imaging and establishing stage depth.  I would not do without it.

Thanks for the suggestion.  The situation behind my listening area is a little different.  You can see the layout on this link:

http://www.floorplanner.com/projects/20186902-living-room/ss4sou

The cathedral ceiling height starts at 9ft at the wall behind the L&R speakers and slopes up to 19ft at the wall behind the listening position.  The stairs behind the listining area lead up to a landing that's open to the living room and the hall behind the listening position leads to the den.

As you can see the area behind the listening position (on couch) is a bit irregular.

Any tips are appreciated. :)

Of course the ultimate solution would be to have a dedicated room for this instead of using the living room, but that will have to stay a dream. :(

martyo

Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #33 on: 3 Dec 2010, 05:36 pm »
Irregular is good. Maybe something in the corner or on the door. You might want to loose that table tho.

Most of us don't have a completely dedicated room. You eliminate as much as possible and sit back and enjoy.

Did you order HT2-TL's?

Nuance

Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #34 on: 3 Dec 2010, 06:05 pm »
Thanks for the suggestion.  The situation behind my listening area is a little different.  You can see the layout on this link:

http://www.floorplanner.com/projects/20186902-living-room/ss4sou

The cathedral ceiling height starts at 9ft at the wall behind the L&R speakers and slopes up to 19ft at the wall behind the listening position.  The stairs behind the listining area lead up to a landing that's open to the living room and the hall behind the listening position leads to the den.

As you can see the area behind the listening position (on couch) is a bit irregular.

Any tips are appreciated. :)

Of course the ultimate solution would be to have a dedicated room for this instead of using the living room, but that will have to stay a dream. :(

Nice room you've got there!

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you mention the paladium window had thick curtains covering it?  If not, definitely get some of those floor standing 2x4 acoustic panels.  Glass = bad for sound. 

Looking at that picture, if it were me I'd mount the plasma, lose the glass coffee table and move the couch back/speakers further from the wall.  If the latter is not possible, I'd treat the wall behind the speakers, probably with at least two 2x4' 4" thick acoustic panels from Gik or Real Traps.  Heck, I'd probably do that anyway.

Check these out:

Wall behind speakers: http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html
Left wall with window(s): http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_242.html

Saturn94

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #35 on: 3 Dec 2010, 06:24 pm »
Irregular is good. Maybe something in the corner or on the door. You might want to loose that table tho.

Most of us don't have a completely dedicated room. You eliminate as much as possible and sit back and enjoy.

Did you order HT2-TL's?

Thanks.

Haven't made that final decision yet, but very close to doing so.

Saturn94

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #36 on: 3 Dec 2010, 07:05 pm »
Nice room you've got there!

Thanks.

Quote
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't you mention the paladium window had thick curtains covering it?  If not, definitely get some of those floor standing 2x4 acoustic panels.  Glass = bad for sound.

You are correct.  They stay closed most of the time.  It's interesting, though, I've compared the sound with the curtains closed and open and there is a difference, but it's pretty small.  Perhaps the reflection from the glass is arriving late enough to prevent significantly impacting imaging/soundstaging? 

Quote
Looking at that picture, if it were me I'd mount the plasma, lose the glass coffee table and move the couch back/speakers further from the wall.  If the latter is not possible, I'd treat the wall behind the speakers, probably with at least two 2x4' 4" thick acoustic panels from Gik or Real Traps.  Heck, I'd probably do that anyway Check these out:

Wall behind speakers: http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_artpanel.html
Left wall with window(s): http://www.gikacoustics.com/gik_242.html

Yeah, I think I need to seriously consider mounting the plasma.  I must admit though the idea of mounting a 135lb 60" plasma (Pioneer Elite 151) on the wall makes me a wee bit nervous. :oops:  If anything happened to my beloved Kuro..... :o :cry: :cry: :cry:

I have zero flexibility with the couch placment (moving it back would block the front door) and the L&R speakers are as far out into the room as I can put them (front of speaker is about 28 inches from the wall behind them).  For consideration of other household members, the coffee table stays as well.  It's actually a fairly small oval table and I keep some books, a plant, and my remote caddy on it so the reflections from it are broken up a bit.  Again, concessions must be made to promote domestic harmony. :green:  I shouldn't complain though for I've not been denied any new audio/video toy I've wanted, as long as we could afford it of course.

Treatments behind the speakers are a possiblility, so I may check that out.

I should add that the soundstaging/imaging I'm getting now is very good.  It's easy to turn the lights down and get lost in the music.  I'm just looking to see if there are improvements to be had within my limitations.  Also, not only does this information help with my current speakers (ADS L1290) but will help when I get my new speakers (to be determined, but the HT2-TL is on a VERY short list) and cut down on the setup time.

vintagebob

Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #37 on: 3 Dec 2010, 07:21 pm »
I recently hung my PRO-151 on the wall.  Sanus makes a great mount for it.

Before



After




Saturn94

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Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #38 on: 3 Dec 2010, 08:56 pm »
I recently hung my PRO-151 on the wall.  Sanus makes a great mount for it.


Thanks for the encouragement. :)

Nuance

Re: Image Depth?
« Reply #39 on: 4 Dec 2010, 12:52 am »
This is the plasma mount I purchased, and it's very well constructed.  I weigh more than the max weight, and I hung from it when I first put it on the wall. :)

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=108&cp_id=10828&cs_id=1082806&p_id=3725&seq=1&format=2