[alamakazam]

ESS Sabre DAC? will RWA make one out of them?

[Stu Pitt]

A chip by itself doesn't make a great DAC.  A few manufacturers have said that power supply and output stages make far more of an impact on the sound than the chip does.

I have nothing against the ESS Sabre chip, but I get so tired of people recommending DACs with the chip in it, when they've never heard the DAC.  There's a reason why the dCS DAC and the Peachtree stuff have such a gap in their price.


Vinnie -

In your experience building and developing DACs, how much does the chip influence the overall sound?  Can a great chip make an inferior output stage and power supply sound credible?

I'm not trying to stir the pot at all; sorry if it sounds that way.  You seem like a guy who's tried a bunch of different stuff and can put things in simple terms for guys like me.  I'm not calling any DAC with the ESS chip in it junk.

[tabrink]

"I'm not calling any DAC with the ESS chip in it junk."

Hey bro,
Love my Eastern Electric DAC .. sure sounds like you are biased it to me! I could be all wrong.
You may be having a bad night and need attention.
I think there is a lot of information that may show some pretty good stuff on this chip that bodes well with the output  stages it feeds.
Your mileage may vary on your ESS Sabre chip that you are listening too.
If you really are.

[newzooreview]

A chip by itself doesn't make a great DAC.

Agreed. The chip is an important component, but if you look at some of the best DACs around they are not using the Sabre chips in many cases: Red Wine Audio, dB Audio Tranquility, and Ayre do not use the Sabre chip, for example. Power supply, output stage, and other components are equally important. Look at what Oppo was doing, for example: they made a $400 Blu-ray player with the Sabre and when they wanted to improve the sound quality they doubled the price by upgrading the analogue output stage. The chip itself is only going to get you so far, and there are many different chips that can give excellent results as part of a design that is excellent overall.

[golfugh]

The 83 has the Cirrus CS4398 DAC for Discrete Stereo; Eight-channel CS4382A DAC for multi channel.  Where as, the 83SE has the ESS (ES9006) DAC chip for its 7.1 multi-channel output. The dedicated stereo output uses another 8-channel Sabre32 Ultra (ES9016) DAC chip by stacking 4 DACs for each of the Left and Right channels.

So the DACs were different in the 2 Oppos, along with the analog stage.

[mchuckp]

I'm not going to get all technical but I believe any component is the sum of its parts.  Just like having a weak link in your chain.  A great chip is a great chip but only as good as the rest of its parts.  I own the Oppo SE and a Wyred 4 Sound DAC-1, which arguably should sound close to the same due to similar DAC chip parts.  However, I'll take my W4S any day.  Basically a waste of money at this point, but my Oppo SE is JUST a transport.

So not saying the Sabre chip is the''Bee's Knee's".  I think it is a GREAT chip.  But I also think you need to look at the rest of the build no matter what chip is in it.

[Stu Pitt]

Tabrink -

It seems you need the attention more than I do.  I didn't mention the EE DAC, did I?   You quoted me and what I said still stands.

A chip doesn't make a DAC any more than an engine makes a car.  If everyone was saying 'buy this car, it has a Corvette engine in it' my response would be does it have a Corvette transmission? Corvette differential? Corvette chassis and suspension?   If the answer to any was no, it wouldn't perform like a Corvette, would it?

Their are a ton of people doing exactly this - recommending DACs simply because they have an ESS Sabre chip under the hood.  I've seen a ton of 'buy X dac, it has the Sabre chip like the dCS DAC does.'.  A ton of those were posted by guys who've never heard the dCS nor the DAC they're recommending.  It's not just here, it's in a ton of forums.

I've heard the dCS stuff, and I've heard the Peachtree stuff.  I can tell you that they sound nothing alike.  But people assume that because they both have a chip made by the same company, they'll sound pretty similar.  Pure non-sense.

I like some of the stuff with the ESS chip, and don't care for other stuff with it.  Maybe my 34 year old hearing is too far gone.  Maybe I'm a moron who imagines things. 

I haven't heard the EE DAC.  By pretty much all accounts it sounds excellent.  I'm glad you're enjoying it.  If I come across it in my DAC search, I'll give it a full and unbiased demo.

The ESS Sabre is a very good chip.  That doesn't give anything with it under the hood instant credibility.  That doesn't disqualify anything without it either.  That's really my main point.

If it was the best chip in the world, why doesn't everyone who makes digital gear over a couple hundred bucks use it?   A few great non-Sabre units have been mentioned.  Add Bryston, Naim, and Linn to that list.  There's plenty others.   I'd take a Naim DAC over just about anything I've heard with a Sabre chip.  Same for the Bryston BDA-1.  Not sure what the Naim DAC uses, and don't really care either.  The Bryston BDA-1 and BCD-1 use a Crystal chip.  Does that make them better or worse, in and of itself, than anything else out there?

[tabrink]

 
Hi Stu
Thanks for the love bro'. Please understand I am not confronting just "inviting more stimulation for discussion material. Not anywhere as serious sounding about this as you but do enjoy reading your thoughts always. Just throwing stuff out threr and just being me.   
All the Best
Tom

[Stu Pitt]

Right back at you.  If I took myself seriously, would I call myself Stu Pitt?   I'm pretty sure I wouldn't use the absurd Napolean Dynamite pic either. 

The problem with the Internet is that we just see text.  No facial expressions, tone of voice, etc.  All non-verbal communication cues are missing.  This happens far more than people realize IMO.  Combine that with my wit and dry sense of humor, and I'm surprised I don't get myself into more 'trouble' than I do. 

The ESS Sabre is a great chip.  I'm the type of guy who's never cared about the technology of anything; I've always firmly believed that it's the implementation of the technology that seperates stuff.  Tubes vs solid state, digital vs analog, full range vs sub/sat, etc.

Regardless what's being used, solid power supplies and output stages make a world of difference in any type of component IMO. 

[Stu Pitt]

I'm really interested in hearing the new Audiolab CDP/DAC that's just been released.  It coincidentally has a Sabre DAC.  Anyone know if they have a US distributor?   Their website doesn't list one. 

[tabrink]

Speaking of the EE DAC. I have the Bolder modded EE DAC arriving this week as I am the first lucky goner' to get to audition this marvel!! Looking forward to mating it to my Eastern Electric Pre, Virture ICEblocks and Omega Alnico Super Hemps .
Wayne has done a ton of work to this DAC and to say I am excited to be getting  some quality time with it is putting it mildly! I feel the love.
 

[Vinnie R.]

All,

I apologize for the delayed response - I am been beyond busy.

Good discussion and good points have been raised.  But to answer to alamakazam's question,
the short answer is "no."   

Vinnie -

In your experience building and developing DACs, how much does the chip influence the overall sound? 

It is just one of many variables that influence the sound of a dac.  Input stage, power supply, output stage, etc. are just as important as the d/a chip itself. 

Can a great chip make an inferior output stage and power supply sound credible?

It will still sound inferior if the other variables mentioned above are inferior. 

A chip doesn't make a DAC any more than an engine makes a car.  If everyone was saying 'buy this car, it has a Corvette engine in it' my response would be does it have a Corvette transmission? Corvette differential? Corvette chassis and suspension?   If the answer to any was no, it wouldn't perform like a Corvette, would it?

I like the car analogy and agree 100%

All the best,

Vinnie