[TheChairGuy]

Wow! I can't believe I only posted this up a few hours ago and already have so many responses 

OK lets put a few things to bed.

First up there's nothing spurious or essentially wrong, the cart sounds magnificent, but I suppose my recent exposure to Grado carts has left me yearning for the fuller bottom end (bass to vocals), yet retain the exquisite detailing

24,000 members at AudioCircle...and VinylCircle is the 7th most active circle among many now.  So, there are a lot of folks, increasingly, chiming in with ideas.  Great, isn't it? 

I think things go back to Grado's philosophy.  Moving Coils are inherently superior electrically (lower inductance and DC resistance)...but, flawed to a great extent mechanically so as to negate the electrical superiority.

It's precisely how I find the situation with cartridges...tho I found the Denon DL-S1 the closest approximation to a perfect MC specimen I have ever heard.  I think it's because only Denon (and Audio-Technica...Ortofon, and maybe Benz?) have the kinda' scale to damp using ultra precise machines, not very imprecise humans.  It's why their kindly priced to your wallet, too, relative to other MC brands.

Lower DC resistance should offer up better bass performance...but, because MC's are damped internally, you never reach their theoretical maximum.

The Grado is un or underdamped.  It creates its share of issues, too, but it's what makes it so musical ultimately - and the wonderful bass lines aren't trampled (damped) to death Fluid damping helps control the underdamped sometimes overly wild and whooly nature to a great degree I've found.

I think you just outta' enjoy the AT-OC9 for what it can do and look past the slightly tepid bass.  I have the same issue with the Ortofon X5-MC...it sounds so smooth and buttery it makes me weep....but after 2 album side I'm rushing back to my Grado for fulsome bass and an even more natural (ie, like the live event or the way I hear unamplifed instruments sound) 

But, don't let me sway you - do as your tweekin' heart desires 

John

[orthobiz]

I do use a 1/8" wedge of modeling clay between Grado cartridges and headshell.  I have heard nothing but benefit from this on a variety of arms tried.

Umm, I could send you a smidge of black modeling clay if you'd like, l'homme des chaises!

Paul

[neobop]

I think things go back to Grado's philosophy.  Moving Coils are inherently superior electrically (lower inductance and DC resistance)...but, flawed to a great extent mechanically so as to negate the electrical superiority.

It's precisely how I find the situation with cartridges...tho I found the Denon DL-S1 the closest approximation to a perfect MC specimen I have ever heard.  I think it's because only Denon (and Audio-Technica...Ortofon, and maybe Benz?) have the kinda' scale to damp using ultra precise machines, not very imprecise humans.  It's why their kindly priced to your wallet, too, relative to other MC brands.

Lower DC resistance should offer up better bass performance...but, because MC's are damped internally, you never reach their theoretical maximum.

The Grado is un or underdamped.  It creates its share of issues, too, but it's what makes it so musical ultimately - and the wonderful bass lines aren't trampled (damped) to death Fluid damping helps control the underdamped sometimes overly wild and whooly nature to a great degree I've found.

I think you just outta' enjoy the AT-OC9 for what it can do and look past the slightly tepid bass.  I have the same issue with the Ortofon X5-MC...it sounds so smooth and buttery it makes me weep....but after 2 album side I'm rushing back to my Grado for fulsome bass and an even more natural (ie, like the live event or the way I hear unamplifed instruments sound) 

John

Superior electrically but flawed mechanically? BS Maybe that idea goes back to the days when MCs were all low cu and poor trackers. Those days are long gone. Is an undamped cantilever superior mechanically, or just one that yields relatively prominent and under-controlled bass? I think the latter is true.

Just because the OC9II is voiced similarly to a 150MLX, doesn't mean all MCs have tepid bass or are flawed mechanically. Ever hear a Dynavector? I'm quite sure the OC9II has great bass. It's just not as prominent and would tend to be overshadowed by the rest.
neo

[TheChairGuy]

Umm, I could send you a smidge of black modeling clay if you'd like, l'homme des chaises!

Paul

I like the orange...visually, I can see if I have the cartridge canted correctly in the headshell better than with the black modeling clay.

Beige works, too, squished in between the black headshell and black Grado cartridge body but I ran out

John

[orthobiz]

Also, I think the orange has better damping characteristics. More red clay in it.

lol

Paul

[DaveyW]

Neo's right on the money when he states "I'm quite sure the OC9II has great bass. It's just not as prominent"

That's exactly where I am.

But, I've walked to a position where I've got so used to the Grado balance that I do miss that slightly more fulsome delivery when returning to the OC9.

This thread has helped me get my head around it a bit more.
I think we're sort of concluding, let the Grado do it's thing and the OC9 do it's own.

Each cart suits different recordings.

I'm gonna leave it like this and when the OC9 goes back on have a little tinker and see if it leads to anything.

That said there's a few other nice carts in my stable that have'nt had a run out for a while .........   

[TheChairGuy]

Also, I think the orange has better damping characteristics. More red clay in it.

lol

Paul

HA! - yeah, probably higher lead content, BoneDoc

John

[TheChairGuy]

I think we're sort of concluding, let the Grado do it's thing and the OC9 do it's own.

Yeah, I think you're head is screwed on right, Dave

Moving Coils, with lower DC resistance than MI/MM's have extend lower...their bass should sound more fulsome as there's more there...but it seems muted by the physical damping they require (so you don't hear screeching they are capable of if not damped)

THAT'S what I meant earlier when I mentioned I'm in agreement with Grado's philosophy on this....an MC is electrically superior, but let down by it's poor mechanical characteristics.

neobop doesn't hear it, but I do and choose Grado over all others for this reason (except the Pickering XLZ-7500 low output MM...which is a friggin' corker).

I never hope to get the characteristics of an MI in an MC and vice versa...I just enjoy them for what they are as they are both sonically flawed. It's fruitless to hope for that mythical middle ground in moving mass cartridges.

However, the world opened up to me recently at a Music Festival held in Denver....where I heard SoundSmith Strain Gauge cartridge.  It has 0 DC resistance and 0 inductance and virtually no moving mass.....it simultaneously obsoleted all MI, MM and MC cartridges I have ever heard. 

It's my future...now I just have to substantiate the $5500 cost on a 600 record collection

http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/sg200.html
http://www.sound-smith.com/cartridges/TAS_Strain_Gauge.pdf

Can you guys start buying some more Magna Carts, please

John

[neobop]

John TCG,
Oh I hear it (if that's what you mean), I just don't prefer it. Outside of frequency response there are other issues for me. Some Dynavectors seem bass oriented, that's why I mentioned them. It is annoying, especially with a bright recording/pressing, to lose the bass in the mix. But I think there is a middle ground. Some carts seem neutral - flat frequency response. Your 7500 is a good example I think. I've never seen a test report but it sounds that way to me (Stanton 980LZ). My Genesis 1000 has flat response. Just a tiny rise up near 20KHz. Believe it or not, there are others.

Maybe there is something about MI carts that makes them bassier. A phase relationship or something? It seems like quite a few, Nagaoka, Grado, some Stantons, even some Ortofon models are more bass oriented than their brethren. But the notion that a MC is superior electrically and inferior mechanically just isn't true IMO. Joe Grado probably said that 50 yrs ago when there was a kernel of truth there. MCs were generally poor trackers and klunkers compared to now.

Funny you should mention strain gauge carts again. I was looking at an old preamp listing and saw that it had a mike input. The sensitivity was the same as the MM input 2mV. Wonder if it would work with a SG? I went to Soundsmith site but couldn't find specs for sensitivity, impedance.
neo

[TheChairGuy]

I haven't wrapped my mind about the technology of strain gauge completely (perhaps I cannot or never will)...but what I heard was a different and better animal than any cartridge I have ever heard before.

There was less 'jitter' in the sound...something that may be attributable to the lack of moving mass at the end of the tonearm.

The arm is still responsible for tracking the tiny grooves...but, without pulsing mass from the cartridge, it can do it better than ever before.

Just sayin'....

It's my future if I can swallow my sensibility of spending $5500 for a cartridge (that will, eventually wear out and require additional expenditures to keep it going).  It simply obliterated the age-old pro's and cons of MM/MI versus MC in one 10 minute window that I heard it.

John

[DaveyW]

John if you can blow $xxxx on a Decca Jubilee as a bit of a folly then $6k on a known gud un' surely is a walk on the park

And 600 LP's? What are you playing at

Go on get to your local vinyl store and splash out
Once you've got a proper collection  that strain gauge cart will be a total no brainer

Sorry, Sorry gettin' a bit carried away

Back to the thread
My personal benchmark for tonal neutrality is the Shure V15 III.
I do tend to use this as a bit of a baseline when comparing carts
Cheers
And have a great weekend Guys,
Dave

[TheChairGuy]

John if you can blow $xxxx on a Decca Jubilee as a bit of a folly then $6k on a known gud un' surely is a walk on the park

And 600 LP's? What are you playing at

Go on get to your local vinyl store and splash out
Once you've got a proper collection  that strain gauge cart will be a total no brainer

Sorry, Sorry gettin' a bit carried away

The London Decca was $1600 (gently used).  Not that it was bad (you heard it, and cataloged on your site and you pretty much agreed that it sounded good, but not great), it is merely considerably overpriced 

The UK price on them (new) is 40% less and makes their outrageous price (new) a little better conspicuous value.

The Strain Gauge...well, we'll see about that USD$5500 outlay 

I've been fortunate - since childhood I've always had a used record shop near me that took all my old albums for credit (10 dogs usually gets me a new/used one).  I'm pretty organized - so I've regularly swapped out the dogs over the years for new/used ones at my local shop to keep the bulk down. 

It's been good that I have as I'm in my 7th house in 21 years since moving out of my parents.  Less to transport - less hassles in my life.  600 records is plenty fine as a collection for me 

John

[DaveyW]

It's been good that I have as I'm in my 7th house in 21 years since moving out of my parents.  Less to transport - less hassles in my life.  600 records is plenty fine as a collection for me 

Ahh! You know I was just jesting 

Got to admit, although I do have a few more, realistically I can only keep about this number in the main living/listening room.
I keep quite a significant proportion in semi-storage and rotate around every now and again.